Author Topic: WX and decision making  (Read 22156 times)

Offline Ted_Stryker

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Re: WX and decision making
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2006, 10:15:21 PM »
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Just last winter I was using a 295 with the latest update, and it routinely and consistently put the airport in the harbor, almost a mile offshore.  There was no budging it.  And, we flew out of there for a month.

Using a VFR-only GPS in IFR conditions is asking for trouble, but then again, I guess I am a big scaredy-chicken.

Fortunately we also had the IFR panel-mount, but it was an eye-opener, just the same.  (We had the VFR ones for survey reference only.)  It was a stark difference....

I've always heard that using 2 GPS's in close proximity will cause distortion errors, since they'll recieve false signals off each other.  Did you try turining off the panel mount GPS?  It did dawn on me after the fact that when using my GPS III on the boat, there was a dash mount GPS being used in the wheelhouse at the same time.

Phil

I'd have to agree with Baradium on this one.  GPS units are recievers.  Unless there is a problem with a unit having RF interference with the nature of the electronics, there should be no problem with multiple in the aircraft.  It is possible you had a faulty unit, or the antenna for one was in a poor location.  The more satellites visible to a unit, the greater the accuracy.  If the handheld unit was having a problem seeing satellites due to the metal structure of the plane and no external antenna, that would explain it's innaccuracy compared to the panel mounted one. 

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Offline tundra_flier

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Re: WX and decision making
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2006, 11:41:54 PM »
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I'd have to agree with Baradium on this one.  GPS units are recievers.  Unless there is a problem with a unit having RF interference with the nature of the electronics, there should be no problem with multiple in the aircraft.  It is possible you had a faulty unit, or the antenna for one was in a poor location.  The more satellites visible to a unit, the greater the accuracy.  If the handheld unit was having a problem seeing satellites due to the metal structure of the plane and no external antenna, that would explain it's innaccuracy compared to the panel mounted one. 

Mine came with a warning about errors if too close to another GPS reciever.  All antennas and recievers actually emmit the signal they're receiving.  An antenna is a passive signal amplifying device, and part of the amplified signal is emmitted.  Likewise the first stage of any RF reciever is an electronic signal amplifier.  Some of the amplified signal is again emmitted.  What can happen with two GPS recievers, or even FM radio for that matter, if close enough they will recieve not only the source signal (from the satelites) but also a second signal from the other receiver.  The second signal is just slightly out of phase with the source so you get distorted information.  This caused us all no end of frustrations when building amp circuits in the basic electronics labs, until the prof explained we were causing interference with each other.   :P

When using dual GPS systems, they must have shielding from each other and use a common antenna, or have the antenna's carefully located to prevent interfering with each other.  Hand held units aren't designed for that.

Phil - Electrical Engineer

Offline Baradium

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Re: WX and decision making
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2006, 12:48:31 AM »
Mine came with a warning about errors if too close to another GPS reciever.  All antennas and recievers actually emmit the signal they're receiving.  An antenna is a passive signal amplifying device, and part of the amplified signal is emmitted.  Likewise the first stage of any RF reciever is an electronic signal amplifier.  Some of the amplified signal is again emmitted.  What can happen with two GPS recievers, or even FM radio for that matter, if close enough they will recieve not only the source signal (from the satelites) but also a second signal from the other receiver.  The second signal is just slightly out of phase with the source so you get distorted information.  This caused us all no end of frustrations when building amp circuits in the basic electronics labs, until the prof explained we were causing interference with each other.   :P

When using dual GPS systems, they must have shielding from each other and use a common antenna, or have the antenna's carefully located to prevent interfering with each other.  Hand held units aren't designed for that.

Phil - Electrical Engineer

The dual units don't share any components, destroys the redundancy, the antennas are right next to eachother on all the dual installs I've seen as well.   ;)

Don't know about the rest, I do know that one of the reasons IFR installs are so $$$ is they do so many checks for interference.    However, this applies on single installs as well.   Handheld units just don't have the ability for accuracy needed for IFR flight.  They are helpful for VFR, but you have to watch them because of this.   

I'm still a bit skeptical that merely the presences of another GPS unit automatically causes the descrepency....
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
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Offline tundra_flier

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Re: WX and decision making
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2006, 04:21:10 AM »
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I'm still a bit skeptical that merely the presences of another GPS unit automatically causes the descrepency....

CAN cause an error, not necessarily will.  ;)

Phil

Offline Baradium

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Re: WX and decision making
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2006, 04:54:25 AM »
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I'm still a bit skeptical that merely the presences of another GPS unit automatically causes the descrepency....

CAN cause an error, not necessarily will.  ;)

Phil


So CAN having a comm radio.  ;)
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
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Offline Ted_Stryker

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Re: WX and decision making
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2006, 01:25:56 PM »
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I'd have to agree with Baradium on this one.  GPS units are receivers.  Unless there is a problem with a unit having RF interference with the nature of the electronics, there should be no problem with multiple in the aircraft.  It is possible you had a faulty unit, or the antenna for one was in a poor location.  The more satellites visible to a unit, the greater the accuracy.  If the handheld unit was having a problem seeing satellites due to the metal structure of the plane and no external antenna, that would explain it's innaccuracy compared to the panel mounted one. 

Mine came with a warning about errors if too close to another GPS receiver.  All antennas and receivers actually emit the signal they're receiving.  An antenna is a passive signal amplifying device, and part of the amplified signal is emitted.  Likewise the first stage of any RF receiver is an electronic signal amplifier.  Some of the amplified signal is again emitted.  What can happen with two GPS receivers, or even FM radio for that matter, if close enough they will receive not only the source signal (from the satelites) but also a second signal from the other receiver.  The second signal is just slightly out of phase with the source so you get distorted information.  This caused us all no end of frustrations when building amp circuits in the basic electronics labs, until the prof explained we were causing interference with each other.   :P

When using dual GPS systems, they must have shielding from each other and use a common antenna, or have the antenna's carefully located to prevent interfering with each other.  Hand held units aren't designed for that.

Phil - Electrical Engineer

I don't doubt your credentials or knowledge on the issue at all.  I just suspect that since it seemed to be a consistent error that it was likely from a more stable interference factor such as the airframe shielding satellite visibility that from any local sources.  Granted, on the antenna issue they do have the tendency to have some feedback potential, though I've only seen that in situations where higher power was involved, and proximity was extremely close.... unless there was a defect in the shielding or in the electronic circuit design or component failure that generated an RF wave harmonic allowing for distortion potential.

In any case, this would be a situation of debate in a vacuum since we have no direct ability to examine the plane, nor the unit.  Can you hook up the handheld unit to the external antenna and get the distortion to disappear?  How about with it outside of the aircraft?  If the distortion remains, there may be an internal error.

As already noted, VFR units don't have the accuracy of IFR rated ones, and panel mount will, obviously, give the best results versus handheld units of either VFR or IFR types due to the magnetic anomaly and signal leak survey mapping required for a proper panel install.

If you go to AOPA's website, the Air Safety Foundation sub-site there has a series of presentations on GPS for VFR and GPS for IFR, describing the systems, accuracies, and other factoids that may be of assistance to clearing up this anomaly to an extent as well.

Please understand, we are simply offering advice for the sake of assistance.  Not challenging you.   :)
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Offline tundra_flier

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Re: WX and decision making
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2006, 03:20:36 PM »
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So CAN having a comm radio. 

Comm radio is a very different frequency from GPS, so not likely. 

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Please understand, we are simply offering advice for the sake of assistance.  Not challenging you.   

Understood.  Thanks for the web site info too, I'll have to read through that tonight. 

I just found it very odd that their hand held was that far off regarding an airport location.  Mine is frequently off regarding rivers, roads and that sort of thing.  But I can zoom in and it'll accurately show me where on the airport I'm at with the map tracks describing the taxiways perfectly.   If it was simply a poor signal, due to aircraft structure in the way of their GPS or something blocking the satelites, I'd have expected the error to be more random.  That's what got my curiousity up.  And being an engineer, I just gotta find the solution.  ;D

Phil


Offline Ted_Stryker

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Re: WX and decision making
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2006, 03:44:36 PM »
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So CAN having a comm radio. 

Comm radio is a very different frequency from GPS, so not likely. 

Quote
Please understand, we are simply offering advice for the sake of assistance.  Not challenging you.   

Understood.  Thanks for the web site info too, I'll have to read through that tonight. 

I just found it very odd that their hand held was that far off regarding an airport location.  Mine is frequently off regarding rivers, roads and that sort of thing.  But I can zoom in and it'll accurately show me where on the airport I'm at with the map tracks describing the taxiways perfectly.   If it was simply a poor signal, due to aircraft structure in the way of their GPS or something blocking the satelites, I'd have expected the error to be more random.  That's what got my curiousity up.  And being an engineer, I just gotta find the solution.  ;D

Phil



As an engineer myself, I can relate to that  |:)\

I've had a handheld GPS system for my Pocket PC that works pretty well, even gets fair reception from inside my car without resorting to an external antenna.  I can see it change accurracy though from when it's inside the car and outside if moving, such as walking from my car to a plane or something.  I exprimented with it a bit and found that if it's outside, my particular unit can be accurate within about 20 feet dependably.  Inside my car I found that the error increased to about 75 feet or so.  The error drift is, for some reason, consistent in terms of how it plots.  I suspect the reason behind that is more of a software driver with the way the unit does math, perhaps with floating point error correction, than any other factor.  I have nothing to back that up with just yet, but the predictability of which direction the error falls on seems to indicate the error is algorithmic in nature.

Just my thoughts.  I may be a bit biased on that due to my engineering background being one of software.

We're going to have to come in pretty low!  It's just one of those things you have to do... when you land!  -- Ted Striker - Airplane!

fireflyr

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Re: WX and decision making
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2006, 11:58:08 PM »
WOW, BOTH you guys are engineers!!! |:)\ |:)\
I've always wanted to drive a locomotive---Can you give me a ride? HUHUHUH? pleaseoplease!!!! :-*

Offline Ted_Stryker

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Re: WX and decision making
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2006, 12:13:17 AM »
WOW, BOTH you guys are engineers!!! |:)\ |:)\
I've always wanted to drive a locomotive---Can you give me a ride? HUHUHUH? pleaseoplease!!!! :-*

Well... I would, but right now, as I get older, only the caboose seems to be intact... and it's growing   ;D
We're going to have to come in pretty low!  It's just one of those things you have to do... when you land!  -- Ted Striker - Airplane!

Offline cj5_pilot

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Re: WX and decision making
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2006, 01:29:59 AM »
WOW, BOTH you guys are engineers!!! |:)\ |:)\

You know how you tell an extroverted engineer?  They stare at YOUR shoes when the talk to you.

Tundra knows LOTS of engineer jokes  ;)
The average pilot, despite the sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring. These feelings just don't involve anyone else.

fireflyr

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Re: WX and decision making
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2006, 02:56:02 AM »
WOW, BOTH you guys are engineers!!! |:)\ |:)\

You know how you tell an extroverted engineer?  They stare at YOUR shoes when the talk to you.

Tundra knows LOTS of engineer jokes  ;)
HEHE--that's good
Ok Tundra, let's hear some more----just tell'em slow (I'm Polish)

Offline tundra_flier

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Re: WX and decision making
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2006, 10:02:52 PM »
An Engineer, Physisist and mathmatition were all told that the first one to cross the room would get a kiss from the beautiful woman on the other side.  But they each could only cross half the remaining distance on each of their turns.

The mathmatition gave up immediatly because it was impossible to ever reach the other side.

The physisist tried 3 turns to confirm his hypothesis and then gave up.

The engineer keep going - he knew he could get close enough. ;)

Offline TheSoccerMom

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Re: WX and decision making
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2006, 03:06:10 AM »
I've never heard of units interfering with each other;  most of the aircraft on survey jobs have 3 units installed at all times.

I just figured it was the inaccuracy inherent with a cheaper, VFR-only unit.

It just made me even more of a believer in the IFR unit, though....
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Offline cj5_pilot

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Re: WX and decision making
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2006, 05:06:16 AM »
I'm a FIRM beliver in GPS:

Good Prayer Style

I figure GPS will save my tail  ;)
The average pilot, despite the sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring. These feelings just don't involve anyone else.