Author Topic: Dumb Question 2: The Top Gun fly-by manouver  (Read 15713 times)

airtac

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Re: Dumb Question 2: The Top Gun fly-by manouver
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2007, 12:06:52 AM »

There's a huge difference between (1) an extreme decelerating pitch up where there is little if any altitude gained and (2) the acceleration to a loop entry where max altitude is gained by smooth steady pitch increase...  two different maneuvers with two different results.

To use your rationale, then I guess every time you increased back pressure (takeoff, stalls, landing flare, etc.) you would be entering an Immelman----

I had said that in the first reply, but then recanted in the second.  Go back and look  ::type::
REALLY?  Is that where you talked about a "backwards loop" or a "barrell roll" at the top?   HMMM- intresting

Offline Frank N. O.

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Re: Dumb Question 2: The Top Gun fly-by manouver
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2007, 01:18:06 AM »
Look please, I just wanted to ask what I thought would get a quick simple answer since as I wrote at first, I remember reading the manouver was invented by a US pilot during the vietnam war but now I'm getting concerned this is going to make people leave again although I hope I'm misunderstanding the tone in the posts. I really don't want people leaving again like last time. This is the only place I really have left with nice people to talk to. I haven't heard from my best friend Chey in almost two months now and with her health-status, especially from her last message, I'm worried and alone. Please just forget my stupid questions.

Frank
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 01:20:52 AM by Frank N. O. »
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Offline undatc

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Re: Dumb Question 2: The Top Gun fly-by manouver
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2007, 03:30:47 AM »
REALLY?  Is that where you talked about a "backwards loop" or a "barrell roll" at the top?   HMMM- intresting

I'm going to choose to ignore your uncouth attitude and assume that your post was written in ignorance of this...

It would appear, and from what I remember from my aerodynamics class, that he increases thrust, and also angle of attack (ie he pulls up).  This would cause the airplane to slow, and if all else is constant, ie Jester doesn't slow down or increase his own thrust, the the F14 should climb above, but due to the increased drag on the plane also slow.  As Jester's plane is now faster it would "shoot" in front of Mavericks plane, all he has to do now is nose over and follow.

Which was posted 20 minutes after this, in which I said

Anyway the opening part of it either way is like an immelman in that, you're in level flight and you start a backwards loop.  Just that in an Immelman you stop half way and do a barrel roll to bring you back straight and level.

That was posted several hours after my initial post where I said

...possible opening to an Immelman...

The last post (the first one I quoted), was written before anyone else attempted to explain it, my first attempt at comparing it to an immelman was false, I figured that me going back and explaining it again (the correct way, even before you tried to explain it), would have cleared that up, obviously not....
-the content of the previous post does not represent the opinions of the FAA or NATCA, and is my own personal opinion...

Offline Gulfstream Driver

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Re: Dumb Question 2: The Top Gun fly-by manouver
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2007, 04:57:18 AM »
Holy useless argument, Batman!

Frank, don't apologize for asking a question.  I thought it was a good one.  Regarding the maneuver, I had never heard of it until I saw Top Gun, then I heard reference to What's-his-name doing it in a SU-31 or -30 (whichever number they're using) at airshows.  You might be right about the Vietnam reference, but I'm not sure.  That'd probably take more research than I'm willing to commit.   ;)
Behind every great man, there is a woman rolling her eyes. --Bruce Almighty

airtac

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Re: Dumb Question 2: The Top Gun fly-by manouver
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2007, 01:51:10 PM »
Holy useless argument, Batman!

Frank, don't apologize for asking a question.  I thought it was a good one.  Regarding the maneuver, I had never heard of it until I saw Top Gun, then I heard reference to What's-his-name doing it in a SU-31 or -30 (whichever number they're using) at airshows.  You might be right about the Vietnam reference, but I'm not sure.  That'd probably take more research than I'm willing to commit.   ;)
Gulfstream is right Frank, 
Your question was valid and the ensuing argumentive posts were useless >:(
My correction of what I perceived to be impreciseness was not well recieved and I'm sure that UNDATC felt it was a personal assault which led to his "uncouth attitude" remark.  I'll not retaliate nor will I argue further.    ::whistle::

Offline Fabo

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Re: Dumb Question 2: The Top Gun fly-by manouver
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2007, 06:50:50 PM »
What's-his-name

Suggest you mean Viktor Pugachev, right? :)

And while we are still talking about TopGun, what was the actuall MG28 played by?You know there is no such plane designed by Mikoyan and Gurievich...
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 07:14:51 PM by Fabo »
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Offline Frank N. O.

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Re: Dumb Question 2: The Top Gun fly-by manouver
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2007, 07:48:17 PM »
Fabo: Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighters model E and F (single and twin-seater). I read they actually kept the black colour-scheme for actual combat training after the filming. The F-5 is also sibling model of the T-38 training jet that's un-armed, and related to the forward-swept winged X-29 experimental aircraft if I remember correctly. The plane is US made and as mentioned in the movie they were actually used alongside the Douglas A-4 Skyhawks to simulate agressor aicraft for the Top Gun pilots with their larger heavier Tomcats however if they had used F-5s in the movie then it would've been too clear it was the same aircraft as the fictional Mig-28.
And yes I've also heard that the Mig-factory only ever uses non-even numbers for the plane designations (Mig-15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 27, 29 etc). One site said that the moviemakers could've gotten an F-15 painted black with red stars on the tails to simulate a Mig-29 but they didn't. A "Mig-28" was totally unknown so it would be more mysterious.

Frank
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."
Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Fabo

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Re: Dumb Question 2: The Top Gun fly-by manouver
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2007, 07:57:37 PM »
Fabo: Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighters model E and F (single and twin-seater). I read they actually kept the black colour-scheme for actual combat training after the filming. The F-5 is also sibling model of the T-38 training jet that's un-armed, and related to the forward-swept winged X-29 experimental aircraft if I remember correctly. The plane is US made and as mentioned in the movie they were actually used alongside the Douglas A-4 Skyhawks to simulate agressor aicraft for the Top Gun pilots with their larger heavier Tomcats however if they had used F-5s in the movie then it would've been too clear it was the same aircraft as the fictional Mig-28.
And yes I've also heard that the Mig-factory only ever uses non-even numbers for the plane designations (Mig-15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 27, 29 etc). One site said that the moviemakers could've gotten an F-15 painted black with red stars on the tails to simulate a Mig-29 but they didn't. A "Mig-28" was totally unknown so it would be more mysterious.

Frank

Yep, I did some sall research on this, and some say that this was on purpose, not to collide with any possible future Mig fighterjet.
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Offline Thunder Eagle

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Re: Dumb Question 2: The Top Gun fly-by manouver
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2007, 07:12:58 PM »
Hey Frank,

I don't know who invented this maneuver, but I did read a while ago this fascinating page about Duke Cunningham:

http://www.acepilots.com/vietnam/cunningham.html

The whole page is a good read, but see "The Third MiG" for the dogfight in which he performs this maneuver in an F-4 vs. a Mig-17.

Cheers


Offline Frank N. O.

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Re: Dumb Question 2: The Top Gun fly-by manouver
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2007, 03:05:15 PM »
Thanks for the link, interesting reading  ::wave::

Frank
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."
Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Oddball

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Re: Dumb Question 2: The Top Gun fly-by manouver
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2007, 05:41:47 PM »
ok going thru this airtac im affraid you are wrong  jester was flying a A-5(?) skyhawk not as you said a F-5 freedom fighter he was in a single engine A/C while the freedom fighter is a twin engine im just going by the pics frank posted and you can tell the big diff by the outline
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