Really sobering read (helicopter-rent vs plane-rent)

[Frank N. O.]

I was just looking around for pictures of a Bell 222 and I stumbled over both a full-motion sim that's owned by Air Alpha at Odense Airport (where I flew from first and where we're moving back to) and then I found their site with prices for flights. I found one of Air Alpha's 222's: 330 DKK/minute! A Bell JetRanger was 125 DKK/minute. That's 7500 DKK for an hour vs. less than 800 DKK for an hour in a Cardinal 5 years ago

I've wondered how the heck I'd ever afford licenses/ratings to fly like Mary and Jim but it seems like 10x as much is needed to fly like Mike and G-man   
Is it good or bad not to have any loans and never have been listed as a bad payer if I want to get a loan to start a possible flying career (of course I'll check health before starting for real)?

Frank

[Mike]

well . . . keep in mind that you won't start your private rating in a Triple-Duece of all things.

How much is that in Dollars? Don't you guys have Euros over there yet?

Jane would run you $1000 to $1200 per hour and Lucy I am guessing around $800.
The flight school next door charges $340 for a Schweizer WITH instructor per hour.

It's expensive . . . but not if you compare it with a year at Berkley or something. Chuckar got a loan and will pay it off with . . . well . . . probably not his first flying job but hopefully the second one.

[undatc]

I know here, our Bell (not sure sure model) runs 900 and hour plus instructor, and our warrior runs 75 plus instructor.  Eventually you step up to Arrows, Semonals, and an SR20.  The semi is the most expensive at around 150 an hour.

[Frank N. O.]

No Denmark still uses the old danish crown (dansk krone) but it's closely linked in value to the euro. Atm at the all-time low then it only takes 5.50 DKK for 1.00 USD.

What I was also thinking of was how to get a flight soon after we get moved back to Odense but there's no way I can afford a helicopter ride with those prices. I only put up the 222 because I like the shape of it but in real life then one of Lucy or Jane's "sisters" would be the helicopter of choice for regular flights. I did forget that most helicopters are turbine-powered whereas small airplanes are piston-powered and that's also a difference in fuel and service I guess (I don't know any numbers for the specific aircraft mentioned above).

I found some cabin-sizes on Plane & Pilot's homepage and I got another bad shock. The Cardinal's cabin is 48 inches (122 cm) wide but a C150's (and Tri-Pacer that my brother flew in with the ATC we know) is just 40 inches (102 cm) and there aint no way I'll be able to fit there with a shoulder-width of almost 55 cm (21.5 inches) then I'd get a space-problem. Then came the real shock. A Skylane is listed as only having 42 inches (107 cm) width and a Skyhawk 39.5 inches (100 cm)! The site didn't list any helicopter cabin-sizes so I can't list any but for comparisom, my mom's small sub-compact Peugeot 206 has about 135 cm (over 53 inches) width over the armrests in the doors, around where our elbows are, although I can move my arm to the side before touching the door. Btw I also saw that the Commander also has a smaller cabin than the Cardinal, although not by that much, 46 inches (117 cm).

I tried searching for places at Odense Airport where I could get another flight, but came up empty in my price-range

Frank

[Mike]

Panaca Jane uses about 48Gal per hour which adds to her price.

Also keep in mind, that we pay about $90,000 a year JUST FOR INSURANCE on these things. We do fly them into fires which insurance companies don't like but oh well.....

You can count on a helicopter lesson to be about double the price of a little twin airplane.

And you don't learn how to fly in Lucy or Jane but rather a Robinson or Schweizer......

[Gulfstream Driver]

Frank. 

I would suggest getting your private in an airplane first, then you can add on a helicopter rating.  It'll probably be cheaper that way, since you'll already know most of the regs and physics.  This is the direction my former boss took, and he figures he saved a couple thousand dollars.

Also, don't worry about cabin size.  No matter what trainer you get into, you'll always be rubbing shoulders with your instructor.  Unless your burning kerosene or have two props, it's hard to find an airplane that isn't too small.

Just remember that getting your license is a process that takes a little while.  Having to squish into a 152 is a small price to pay.

[Frank N. O.]

I understand that learner aircraft are usually the small ones, the Ranger and AStar were for a joyride to make sure I hadn't gotten weak to airsickness in the last 5 years. I wonder why the insurance doesn't like you fighting fires with your helicopters since I thought that would overall save them a lot, doesn't it?

The problem with cabin-width is not shoulder-rubbing, but being able to fit at all. My brother just called a few minutes ago and I just asked him, and he confirmed that Rolf said I wouldn't be able to fit in the Tri-Pacer/Colt he gave my brother a ride in a little before my flight in the Cardinal. My older (1964 vs 1978)  brother Michael is much slimmer than me and in general has a different build and he had to sit, askew(?) twisted around to allow Rolf to pilot the plane, and vice-versa when Michael got to try and hold it steady in the windy weather they flew in. And if Plane & Pilot's database is correct then a C150/152's cabin is no wider than a Tri-Pacer/Colt and then I can't fit in it at all. And a Skyhawk is said to be 1/2 inch smaller. I wonder if it's possible to get a late-model Cardinal as a trainer (I'm beginning to think the FG model probably is better since it is true that the Cessna RG system doesn't seem that reliable, and it looks very weak indeed with the thin struts being so long and near horizontal so they're getting a heavy bending-force on them during landing).

Btw, in 2002 I was slimmer than now although as I tried to explain my mom last night, the overweight I got is not something that makes me thinner over the shoulders (my arms aren't fat, I just lack muscle-mass/strength due to lack of use).

Thanks for the help on what route to take, that does indeed seem cheaper and easier and as long as it's still safe and good (and it sounds like it works just fine) then I'm happy to hear about it.

Thank you for your help I'll keep you posted on the events here 
Frank

[Baradium]

Frank, you're worrying too much.


Get in the airplane before you decide there's no way you'll fit.  I've seen some massive people fit into a 152 and a 172 shouldn't be a problem at all.  Do your training in a 172 and you'll be fine, and a 152 is probobly still possible.  You'll have to get used to the smaller cabin (you do get used to it), but you should fit.

And a skyhawk (172) or skylane (182) has a larger cabin than a 152, not smaller.

[Frank N. O.]

Well maybe I worry but sadly over the last some years I've had very real reasons for it, however I'm just trying to research what I can while waiting for the move to find out what my options are. I do find it strange that the Cardinal is listed as having a much wider cabin than the Skyhawk and Skylane when they basically seem to have similar proportions (although the Cardinal's much sleeker lines makes it look lower perhaps but from the same magazine site the Skylane is listed as only being a few single inches larger than the Cardinal).

All I know from real life is that I sat ok in the 1974 F177RG I flew in (F177 = Reims model) and that Rolf the ATC we know and who gave my older brother Michael a ride in a Tri-Pacer a few weeks before the Cardinal flight said that I probably wouldn't be able to fit in the narrow cabin (note: my brother is much more slender in build than me and even then he had to sit twisted to allow Rolf to pilot the plane).

Frank

[Gulfstream Driver]

I think the Cardinal seems bigger because it's so easy to get in and out of.

Like Baradium said, you do get used to it.  I would see if your friend would let you sit in the Tri-Pacer just to try it out.  Never hurts just to sit in the thing.

[Frank N. O.]

That was over 5 years ago and I'm not even sure if he's still there. The flyingclub sold their Cardinal too so I can't try that again either, they still got their old Reims 1977 150 though. I just looked at their site and it lists the MTOW to 726kg (1601lbs) so unless the aircraft in itself is superlight then I'd never be able to fly in that. In 2002 I was somewhat lighter than now btw, but once we've moved back to the mainland and with my brother within reach then I can relax a fair bit unlike now so I can take some walks without stressing about things at home or if we can reach the ferry back to the island or such.

Frank

[Gulfstream Driver]

It's almost impossible to keep a 150 in the weight envelope.  As long as it's balanced, it should fly, though.   

[Frank N. O.]

Hahahahaha, ok actually that's not a laughing matter to fly over the MTOW but it was just the way you said it that made me laught a bit here. Although that post also indicates good experience on subject and that's something to respect and listen to

"Learn from the mistakes of other pilots because you won't live long enough to make them all yourself"
(not saying you'd made any serious mistakes mind you)

Frank

[airtac]

Hahahahaha, ok actually that's not a laughing matter to fly over the MTOW but it was just the way you said it that made me laught a bit here. Although that post also indicates good experience on subject and that's something to respect and listen to

"Learn from the mistakes of other pilots because you won't live long enough to make them all yourself"
(not saying you'd made any serious mistakes mind you)

Frank

Frank, I believe that would fall into the category of "gallows humor"

[tundra_flier]

That was over 5 years ago and I'm not even sure if he's still there. The flyingclub sold their Cardinal too so I can't try that again either, they still got their old Reims 1977 150 though. I just looked at their site and it lists the MTOW to 726kg (1601lbs) so unless the aircraft in itself is superlight then I'd never be able to fly in that. In 2002 I was somewhat lighter than now btw, but once we've moved back to the mainland and with my brother within reach then I can relax a fair bit unlike now so I can take some walks without stressing about things at home or if we can reach the ferry back to the island or such.

Frank

Frank, the Tundra Toy is only 38" wide at the shoulders (early model C-150C), has a gross weight of only 1500lbs.  And bob and I flew in it together at least once.  I'm 6', 220lbs.  Bob's just a bit smaller  at 200lbs, and we actually did mangage to get the doors closed    I'd never advise anyone to overload a plane,  But there are lots of 150's and 152's flying around with large instructors and students.  And no, they ain't comfortable for big guys, but a few cramps after a long flight is small price to pay to fly.  Besides, it's a great incentive to keep your weight down, cheapest way to add usefull load is to reduce the pilot's size!

Phil