"Tower is maintaining visual seperation"

[Baradium]

This is a purely hypothetical situation...


Hypothetically speaking,  if you were taking off from say.... Fairbanks in... let's say a Beech 1900C.


So you take off and are on climb out on the McKinley 5 departure from 19R up to 10,000 ft..   That departure is heading 190 to 2000 ft then a climbing right turn to 220 to intercept the 190 radial off of the FAI VOR.  There is another 1900 on the visual for 1L (the same runway, opposite direction).   This... completely hypothetical... situation happens quite often in Fairbanks as tower tries to let you land whatever way you're coming in from.   So this 1900 is already on a direct final as you lift off and probobly out of 4,000 ft, likely on the ILS glideslope.

So in this situation you are on tower, get switched to approach and on intiial contact passing 1,000 ft you get  "xxx, traffic 12 o'clock 6 miles, opposite direction out of 3,000 ft, Beech 1900.  Continue the Mick 5"    And then tells the other traffic "xxx, traffic, 12 o'clock, 5 miles, opposite direction out of 1,000 ft, Beech 1900.  Will be turning to 220 shortly.  Continue on the visual, tower has you both in sight and is maintaining visual seperation."

This is a completely new on  one me.  The hypthetical aircraft... is not even talking to tower anymore (yes I realize approach is probobly standing right next to him) and he's maintaining a visual seperation between traffic that neither aircraft has called in sight yet?   This is with both aircraft operating under IFR with the departing aircraft on an IFR departure procedure.

And this, hypothetically speaking, has the aircraft pass within 1.5 miles (could have been 1 or a little less) of eachother at the same altitude, with neither aircraft ever calling the other in sight.


I just didn't know tower could maintian visual seperation like that.....   


Or would this... purely hypothetical.... situation be an "Alaska thing?"

[undatc]

If you are in VMC conditions you can do this.  Not the best practice as a tower controller to get into.  However you can.  We actually just got into these kinda situations in my tower class.  Most likely there is some LOA between tower and approach that says they can if they do A B and C, then this procedure is allowed.  There is another rule that has to also with diverging courses that are separated by a minimum of X amount of feet that will let you put two planes really close together, thou I cant remember what section its in and its way to early for me to dig into the 7110.65 right now.

A good example is Seatac and Boeing Field in Seattle, i was up there last November talking to controllers about this.  The finals for BFI and SEA cross at about 500'.  This by reg is a bust, however due to an LOA which requires one controller to monitor the finals of both runways, this can go on.  If you want to know more about this I can write a lot about it, as we've talked about it fairly in depth, currently SEA/BFI is the only one in the world with this waiver 

[Baradium]

Interesting...

Crazy stuff. 


They were talking about having to figure out something for the new runway in Atlanta.... they made it something like 100 ft too close to the other runways (oops!) to do the triple simultaneous ILS approaches with the regs.  I don't know what ended up happening, probobly just a waiver to allow them to do it anyway.

[Gulfstream Driver]

That would make me sweat, hypothetically. 

[Baradium]

That would make me sweat, hypothetically. 

It's a normal occurance for them to depart traffic while other traffic is on final on a visual approach.   A 737 departing the runway starts looking awfully big when it's dark and its landing lights are on with it coming straight at you.

Same thing for visa versa.


They also are adept at clearing traffic to land on the same runway going opposite directions at the same time.  Well, not to land at the same time, but they'll issue both landing clearances concurrently.

[cj5_pilot]

Yes it is an Alaskan thing

Yes Approach was standing next to Tower (if not the same person )

Yes I'm glad I don't fly IFR and that I'm not commercially rated so I can "misunderstand" my instructions and get the heck out of the way 

And finally yes I'm exaggerating (a little) on the last point

((BTW I'm trying to figure out how a Tower maintains visual seperation....it doesn't move!))

[undatc]

Interesting...

Crazy stuff. 


They were talking about having to figure out something for the new runway in Atlanta.... they made it something like 100 ft too close to the other runways (oops!) to do the triple simultaneous ILS approaches with the regs.  I don't know what ended up happening, probobly just a waiver to allow them to do it anyway.

To run the simultaneous ILS you need 2500' between runways.  Thats only if you want to land two planes at the same time.  However you can still run them, but need the 3 mile separation, however if you run staggered approaches that can drop to 1.5 mile separation.  Seatac (im most familiar with this airport if you cant tell) does this with their 34's as they only have like 1500' or so between their runways, however with the new runway coming online soon, I'm sure they will start running simultaneous approaches on 34L/R and  run departures out of 34C.

And CJ is right, in a lot of smaller airports, (we as controllers call them up downs) your approach controller is usually your local controller as well.  In a true up/down the tracon is in the same building, but not the same guy.

[tundra_flier]

Yes it is an Alaskan thing

Yes Approach was standing next to Tower (if not the same person )

Yes I'm glad I don't fly IFR and that I'm not commercially rated so I can "misunderstand" my instructions and get the heck out of the way 

And finally yes I'm exaggerating (a little) on the last point

((BTW I'm trying to figure out how a Tower maintains visual seperation....it doesn't move!))

I've had the tower instruct me to maintain visual separation frequently, but that was VFR.  I don't think I've ever heard them say they were maintaining visual separation.  And often in the evenings at FAI the approach, Tower and Ground controllers are all one person.  But I guess he could be beside himself.   

Phil 

[Baradium]

To run the simultaneous ILS you need 2500' between runways.  Thats only if you want to land two planes at the same time.  However you can still run them, but need the 3 mile separation, however if you run staggered approaches that can drop to 1.5 mile separation.  Seatac (im most familiar with this airport if you cant tell) does this with their 34's as they only have like 1500' or so between their runways, however with the new runway coming online soon, I'm sure they will start running simultaneous approaches on 34L/R and  run departures out of 34C.

And CJ is right, in a lot of smaller airports, (we as controllers call them up downs) your approach controller is usually your local controller as well.  In a true up/down the tracon is in the same building, but not the same guy.

The approach and tower at Fairbanks has been different people every time I've talked to them.     Although I hear it can go to one person really late at night (well after midnight).

And isn't SEATAC the one where they have a dedicated controller on a dedicated frequency that aircraft on the approach have to monitor in case one deviates from seperation?

Atlanta wants triple simulataneous ILS approaches.

[undatc]

To run the simultaneous ILS you need 2500' between runways.  Thats only if you want to land two planes at the same time.  However you can still run them, but need the 3 mile separation, however if you run staggered approaches that can drop to 1.5 mile separation.  Seatac (im most familiar with this airport if you cant tell) does this with their 34's as they only have like 1500' or so between their runways, however with the new runway coming online soon, I'm sure they will start running simultaneous approaches on 34L/R and  run departures out of 34C.

And CJ is right, in a lot of smaller airports, (we as controllers call them up downs) your approach controller is usually your local controller as well.  In a true up/down the tracon is in the same building, but not the same guy.

The approach and tower at Fairbanks has been different people every time I've talked to them.     Although I hear it can go to one person really late at night (well after midnight).

And isn't SEATAC the one where they have a dedicated controller on a dedicated frequency that aircraft on the approach have to monitor in case one deviates from seperation?

Atlanta wants triple simulataneous ILS approaches.

Yup, he is an approach controller at the TRACON and has override capability on both approaches.  Talk about a cake job making 150k a year, sit there and watch the finals and make sure they stay on their localizers/glide slopes.