More diesel questions

[chuckar101]

Never said we were the best pilots, actually a lot of guys that get their ratings outta here scare me, my self included, i can legaly fly a plane anywhere i want, but im no where proficient in flying and would definately be a danger to myself and others.  Also our satalite campusus kinda have a rep of being a lil shady....

Wasn't trying to be rude or anything, just saying what I saw.  Obviously there turning out decent students since we all use the same examiners here.  It is funy to see UND in Phoenix especially since there tucked into the far corner of the airport.

[Baradium]

If you want to get technical, the first statement didn't say "training fleet" just "fleet."    There are airlines with much larger fleets. 

UND is a big school though.   Wish MTSU had some of the options availible there, but on the other hand, I'm happy to have gone to a school with a smaller size to the aviation program.  We do have a 727 on our ramp... but it isn't going anywhere. 

Diamond did have a prototype DA-42 with spark engines, supposed to have amazing single engine climb performance at low altitude due to the extra HP availible down low.  Report I read indicated that with a DA-40 redline they had to pull back power to stay below redline with the VSI pegged out because they were uncomfortable pitching back anymore on climbout (and these were test pilots).   Havn't seen any indication they are going to offer it now, although they'd been talking about making it an option to have the sparks instead of diesel.

[tundra_flier]

I have heard of Detroit 2-stroke engines but not much more than the name since european truck companies make their own engines, Scania, Volvo, MAN, Mercedes etc. One problem with diesels though is that the automotive engines are mainly inlines and not boxers so even with smaller displacements I wonder how it can fit in a plane made for a boxer engine.

Diesels use the modern FADEC systems right? Does that mean that the mixture lever is obsolete then? And what about the cowl flaps for cooling control, are they still needed or is the water cooling taking care of itself?

Frank

Diesels don't have a mixture control anyway.  There's no throttle plate, the air induction system is just wide open all the time and power is regulated by how much fuel you pump into the cylinders.  If you use more fuel than you have air to burn you get the black sooty exhaust that old diesels were known for.

Phil

[undatc]

One thing I dont think anyone has addressed though, is where do you get diesel on a ramp?

I know from my limited flying experience, you have 100LL and 110, and if youre lucky JetA at the smaller airports, but I dont think ive ever seen a tank of diesel sitting there.  I spose you just always just pull over to the mechanics bay and im sure they have a fuel caddy for their trucks, but this poses a problem for the average Private Pilot flying form podunk airport.  The bay may not always be open, and the airport youre going to may not have it either.  Do you always just carry some empty 10gal containers around and are ready to take a walk to the gas station or what?

[Gulfstream Driver]

"Theoretically", your x-cntry planning should include airports with diesel available, I think.

[fireflyr]

"Theoretically", your x-cntry planning should include airports with diesel available, I think.

There is a lot of difference between diesel and Jet A and the Thielert engines are designed to burn Jet A----wouldn't try pump diesel until I checked factory specs thoroughly

[undatc]

"Theoretically", your x-cntry planning should include airports with diesel available, I think.

There is a lot of difference between diesel and Jet A and the Thielert engines are designed to burn Jet A----wouldn't try pump diesel until I checked factory specs thoroughly

Woah, so if i understand you right these diesel engines actually burn JetA and are just using the diesel type combustion principal?

[Baradium]

"Theoretically", your x-cntry planning should include airports with diesel available, I think.

There is a lot of difference between diesel and Jet A and the Thielert engines are designed to burn Jet A----wouldn't try pump diesel until I checked factory specs thoroughly

Woah, so if i understand you right these diesel engines actually burn JetA and are just using the diesel type combustion principal?

Seems to be some misunderstanding going on here...

Diesel Engines don't neccessarily burn diesel fuel, it's a combustion process.  Yes, the aviation diesel engines are designed to run on Jet A.   However, any diesel engine will run on Jet A (which used to be called aviation kerosene).

It's not done this way anymore, but the flow for Jet A production used to be:  oil ---> Diesel fuel --> Kerosene --> Jet A

The thing is, Jet A is a lot more highly refined than Diesel fuel.  The modern diesel is probobly going to start getting a lot closer though with the change to ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfer Diesel).  What this leads to is that you can generally run Jet A in a Diesel engine without any ill effects, but an engine designed specifically with Jet A in mind miight not like diesel fuel becuase it'll essentially be "dirtier."

There is a question with modern Jet A about whether any new additives will harm seals in an engine not designed for it, but that's just theory and I've never heard of anyone having problems if they ran Jet A in their fuel trucks or other diesel vehicles on the ramp.


However, turbine engines don't actually *need* Jet A either.  In fact, they've had turbine engines running on anything from coal dust to powdered milk!  The problem with these is that you have to set up the burner to burn whatever fuel if it is a different form (such as powder).  We are allowed to run 100LL Avgas in our PT6s, although we are limited in how much power we are allowed to output with it (gasoline burns faster and hotter than Jet A or diesel fuel, gasoline tends to explode while diesel or jet fuel just tends to burn, this is why there have actually been instances of diesel fuel putting *out* fires because it actually isn't extremely easy to ignite like gasoline).


To further give you a headache, the first diesel engines didn't run on diesel fuel.

[fireflyr]

There is no confusion------Thank you though for expounding on what was already stated

[BrianGMFS]

I pour the Jet A I sump out of our planes into the diesel tractors at work all the time.


Brian

[Baradium]

There is no confusion------Thank you though for expounding on what was already stated

Actually, the confusion was about the idea that a "diesel engine" is naturally *supposed* to run on "diesel fuel" just because it's called "diesel fuel."   

Sorry for not being more clear.  I'm not even so sure now there was so much confusion anyway...   I was halfway thinking about work and then trying to be on the forum while waiting for my plane to get back from its previous run... 

[Frank N. O.]

To my knowledge, Diesel as well as Wankel (in USA perhaps better known as a rotary engine) is named after the last name of the person who invented it. The 4-stroke spark-ignition piston-engine normally called a gasoline engine is an Otto-cycle (I think that was the inventor's name as well). I also think I heard the term Brayton-cycle used with gasturbine engines. I actually think there's at least one more engine type with the inventor's name but I can't remember what it is, except it's not really used anymore. I think it was an engine-type used in early submarines.

Frank

P.S. Extra credit for those that can tell me what a Miller engine is, I know, but do you?

[Baradium]

I do now... although I don't really think it should be considered it's own type of engine.  But that's just me.

[fireflyr]

Googled it-----kind of interesting............and complicated

[TheSoccerMom]

P.S. Extra credit for those that can tell me what a Miller engine is, I know, but do you?

 

I KNOW, I KNOW!!!!!!!!!  That's an engine that runs on Miller High Life, with mods for Miller Genuine Draft or Miller Lite.   

Sheesh.  And mechanics think pilots are STUPID.  Hmmmpph!!