Author Topic: How stressed is regional-flying? (CRJ-crash related)  (Read 11203 times)

Offline Frank N. O.

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How stressed is regional-flying? (CRJ-crash related)
« on: August 29, 2006, 10:25:11 AM »
I just watched CNN.com after hearing about the accident earlier on danish radio and I saw I could see CNN-clips on their site and there I saw a pilot talking to the reporter and discussing how much the pilots had to do, and they used "special software" which clearly was FS9 (aka FS2004) to re-inact the scenario. It sounds horrible that something like that could happend but it also brings up the question about GPS airport-maps. I've seen a few ads in my small collection of GA magazines (Plane and Pilot and Flying! mostly) and there were many ads showing GPS screens with airport taxi-charts etc. available which seems like an excellend idea with the knowledge I have of the problems of larger airports and/or night flying. The accident was said to be in the dark, and as I heard it then the short runway was in fact unlit as opposed to the correct one, it sounds weird that this accident could happend but can someone here tell me how stressed the situation is now in commercial aviation, espeicially with several airlines the world over going bancrupt?

My condolences to the families and friends of the victims
Frank
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."
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fireflyr

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Re: How stressed is regional-flying? (CRJ-crash related)
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2006, 03:47:36 AM »
I read that they noticed the runway lights were not on but it didn't raise any red flags----God, how tragic!

Offline Baradium

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Re: How stressed is regional-flying? (CRJ-crash related)
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2006, 08:51:15 AM »
It was dawn so lack of lights might not have seemed like a big deal at the time (IE, maybe tower shut them off).  They apparently had been doing work on the taxiways and that might have contributed.  It doesn't help that the two ends are so close together that it'd be easy to get on the wrong runway anyway....
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
  -Johnny Cash "I won't back Down"

Offline Mike

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Re: How stressed is regional-flying? (CRJ-crash related)
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2006, 08:25:49 PM »
I am still puzzled. Don't you guys check the heading before taking off on a runway?
I seem to remember my CFII drilling me on this before taking off when I was working on my stuck-wing-Instrument-Rating.....
I remember because I always failed to do it. (since I am not used to using runways and just look where the wind is coming from before I take off.....)

Isn't there a big number painted on the runway as well??

This is a very sad accident that definetly could have been avoided....
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Offline Frank N. O.

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Re: How stressed is regional-flying? (CRJ-crash related)
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2006, 08:46:10 PM »
It never but it pours, new info:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/30/plane.crash/index.html

This is not good.
Frank
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."
— Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Baradium

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Re: How stressed is regional-flying? (CRJ-crash related)
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2006, 12:03:23 AM »
I am still puzzled. Don't you guys check the heading before taking off on a runway?
I seem to remember my CFII drilling me on this before taking off when I was working on my stuck-wing-Instrument-Rating.....
I remember because I always failed to do it. (since I am not used to using runways and just look where the wind is coming from before I take off.....)

Isn't there a big number painted on the runway as well??

This is a very sad accident that definetly could have been avoided....

I check my heading, but I can easily see where you wouldn't catch the error.


I keep being told by pilots familiar with the airport that those runways can be confusing.  Add to it that the taxiways were changed for construction to make even the correct runway look different and it becomes even easier.

Now it comes to light that a hump in the middle of the longer runway makes it appear the same length as the short one.  In other words, from the cockpit, once they turned on the runway, the pilots saw the same sight picture on that runway. 

There *is* a big number on each runway end, however I wonder if the construction meant they entered the runway after the number (they are at the beginning of the runway).  If you see both the runway number and your heading and they aren't the same, it's easier for it to "click" that one is different.  However, if you only see the one...

Comair is union, so I doubt that it's work rules related (basic work rules are pretty tough as far as how much rest you get etc).   

They are dwelling on the fact that the pilots started out getting on the wrong airplane, but that's not a big surprise, if the numbers on the aircraft were similiar it would be an easy mistake.

I think that one change you might see after this is that controllers will not clear you to take off on a runway until you cross all other runways first.   Think about this... the captain is taxiing and comes up on a runway.  When he gets to the runway he is cleared for takeoff.  Instinctively he might think that he is cleared on the runway he just came up on.

I also wonder if the controller told him "cross 26, cleared for takeoff runway 22"  or just "cleared for takeoff" (with or without runway number).  I never cross a runway without verbal instructions on crossing that runway.  Even if the clearance would allow me to cross, I want specific clearance for that runway in case the controller has forgotten something himself (such as telling me to hold short).  The controller might have also issued the full clearance (including crossing) initially.  Then takeoff clearance so he could get to other items.  This is why I think there may be a change.  If he waited until the aircraft only had the correct runway in front of it, there wouldn't have been a possibility of this happening.

Regardless of fault (it will rest on the Captain here), the unfortunate truth is that if the controller simply cleared the aircraft to takeoff without a crossing instruction the flight crew gets "takeoff on the runway" into their heads instead of "cross one runway and takeoff on the next one."  I can easily see how this could have happened.
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
  -Johnny Cash "I won't back Down"

fireflyr

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Re: How stressed is regional-flying? (CRJ-crash related)
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2006, 01:29:53 AM »
I concur with Baradium, The plane switch might have placed them just far enough behind as to upset their rhythm thereby losing concentration and failing a step in the takeoff runway verification process---who will ever really know.  It's pretty easy to be a Monday morning quarterback and we all need to remember that if we screw-the-pooch someday, there will be folks wondering "what the hell were they thinking?"    Remember, S**t happens!

Offline Mike

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Re: How stressed is regional-flying? (CRJ-crash related)
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2006, 01:30:05 AM »
Wow, that's some good intel there, Thanks!

Looks like a bunch of little mistakes and events, once again, led to big disaster.
I can see what you mean Baradium.

BTW: Which crewmember survived the crash? Was it the captain?
Boy, I DO NOT wanna be this guy!!!
That's actually my worst nightmare in flying: Killing somebody and walk away myself.... can you imagine?! :-X
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Offline Mike

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Re: How stressed is regional-flying? (CRJ-crash related)
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2006, 01:33:37 AM »
I concur with Baradium, The plane switch might have placed them just far enough behind as to upset their rhythm thereby losing concentration and failing a step in the takeoff runway verification process---who will ever really know.  It's pretty easy to be a Monday morning quarterback and we all need to remember that if we screw-the-pooch someday, there will be folks wondering "what the hell were they thinking?"    Remember, S**t happens!

Good point as well.
(I wasn't monday moring quarterbacking....just wanted to see what you guys think might have happened)
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fireflyr

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Re: How stressed is regional-flying? (CRJ-crash related)
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2006, 01:37:03 AM »
Oh no, Supreme Overlord Cockamamey Rooster, I was not inferring you as A MMQ---I was speaking of ALL of us in general!
Your feckless and lazy servant, Jim

Offline Baradium

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Re: How stressed is regional-flying? (CRJ-crash related)
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2006, 02:33:05 AM »
Wow, that's some good intel there, Thanks!

Looks like a bunch of little mistakes and events, once again, led to big disaster.
I can see what you mean Baradium.

BTW: Which crewmember survived the crash? Was it the captain?
Boy, I DO NOT wanna be this guy!!!
That's actually my worst nightmare in flying: Killing somebody and walk away myself.... can you imagine?! :-X

It was the F/O who survived (still alive at last report anyway)...   and yes, it'll be tough for him as well...

Unfortunately they still think the fire was the killer.  IE, most people probobly survived impact.  This is something I think can actually make turboprops safer.  Our fuel tanks are outboard of the engine nacelles (excepting auxs, which are almost always empty).  On an RJ I bet the fuel comes very close to the wing root.  You've also got a lot of fuel flowing to those engines in the back...  in this case I believe everyone was unconcious at least...

I'm thinking that hitting the burm, causing it to go airborne, meant the crash was worse than it could have been.  That vertical impact is what I'm thinking of...
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
  -Johnny Cash "I won't back Down"

Offline Mike

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Re: How stressed is regional-flying? (CRJ-crash related)
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2006, 05:13:53 AM »
I just heard of another crash in Kentucky today!
What a week.....  :(
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Offline Baradium

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Re: How stressed is regional-flying? (CRJ-crash related)
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2006, 07:43:52 AM »
I just heard of another crash in Kentucky today!
What a week.....  :(

I'm having trouble finding references, have any details?

You sure it isn't the update since they are talking about the controller for the comair crash only having had 2 hours of sleep?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 07:45:36 AM by Baradium »
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
  -Johnny Cash "I won't back Down"

Offline happylanding

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Re: How stressed is regional-flying? (CRJ-crash related)
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2006, 09:48:54 AM »
I do not know if you will confirm me that, but I remember that my former – who at the time was instructor pilot and was quite often renewing the VFR/SEP licence of ATPL pilots – used to tell me that the most stupid mistakes, as forgetting to check rwy heading, entering into clouds, forgetting to change the fuel tank, getting lost while flying VFR, usually came by experienced pilots who used to fly for airlines. He had a theory about it, and it was that they were too much used about performing always the same line of tasks that, at the end, they were doing everything in automatic, without further noticing if anything behaved differently or was to be considered abnormal. That’s just my 2 cents, but maybe it could well help in explaining why – on hell – things alike happen: even if something is strange, it just passes on your mind without switching any alarm chime on: it’s like when you drive on a road you do everyday and you do not notice that a new traffic light has been put there. The fact is that it’s too bad anyhow. And in that case there also was a good line of coincidences that helped the accident to develop.
I give that landing a 9 . . . on the Richter scale.

Offline tundra_flier

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Re: How stressed is regional-flying? (CRJ-crash related)
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2006, 04:11:43 PM »
In this case I'm guessing that their familiarity with the airport was a detriment.  If it'd been their first time there they'd probably have double checked which runway was which.  I know I've caught myself heading for my usual runway at FAI, and had to ask the ground to repeat which one I was suppose to be using once of twice.  Especially since FAI has so many parallel runays.  19L, 19R, Ski 19, 19 float...(one day the tower keep clearing me to land on 19 Float.  Had to tell them 3 times I was on wheels.  Must have been a float plane with similar call sign in the area). 

I've also gotten in the habit of not only reading back my clearances, but asking them to confirm if it's out of the ordinary, like "Enter right downwind for 19 left, cleared to land"  Which puts me over 19R and the international terminal on downwind.

Phil