Author Topic: Higher Altitudes and O2  (Read 19804 times)

Offline Plthijnx

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 537
  • My da*n easy button's broken. Can I borrow yours?
Re: Higher Altitudes and O2
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2006, 05:39:19 AM »
just food for thought, i am a smoker and have smoked in the cockpit at FL 125 with no problems at all. however i did enjoy the hallooosinashuns! (j/k) really though, i haven't had a problem at all. no signs of hypoxia. i guess it's like fireflyr said "Somewhat the contrary, smokers have a higher hemoglobin content in the blood and (depending on health, of course) can withstand altitudes very well.    Just like people who live at higher altitudes have higher hemoglobin counts.   Go figure!!"
The three best things in life are a good landing, a good orgasm, and a good bowel movement. The night carrier landing is one of the few opportunities in life to experience all three at the same time. - Unknown

Offline happylanding

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1079
Re: Higher Altitudes and O2
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2006, 07:34:51 PM »
I just smoked once on a plane, and I remember that I felt like it were the first cigarette after a halt of 24 hours; or my first cigarette at all: you know, when it kicks, when you feel dizzy for some seconds and feel tickle in the fingers...not a nice feeling since I was sure I was going to puke, even if I'm completely addicted.  :P  :(
I give that landing a 9 . . . on the Richter scale.

Offline tundra_flier

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 798
  • It's not an old plane, it's a classic!
Re: Higher Altitudes and O2
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2006, 11:44:50 PM »
I wonder is there are any long term effects of living at high altitudes?  I grew up in Wyoming at 5,000ft, but have been living at 400ft for the last 16 years.  About 4 years back I was going out to a bush village on a charter flight.  Since I'm a pilot, the captain let me take the right seat in the Navajo.  We ended up spending about 2 hours at 12,000ft between layers.  I didn't recognize any hypoxia effects in myself, and of course the pilot was fine.  But the other 5 passengers were all complaining about fatige, headaches, dizzyness etc, and a couple of them are in far better shape than I am.  And since we were between layers, there was no way the other passengers could know how high we were.  Could there be some residual effects of growing up at high altitude? 

I don't nomally fly above 3,000 ft myself.  I think tundra toy would run out of fuel before I got her up to 12,000. ;)

Phil

Offline Ted_Stryker

  • Chicken Farmer
  • Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 443
  • Never Forget 9/11/2001
    • Cyber Forensics
Re: Higher Altitudes and O2
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2006, 02:22:14 AM »
I wonder is there are any long term effects of living at high altitudes?  I grew up in Wyoming at 5,000ft, but have been living at 400ft for the last 16 years.  About 4 years back I was going out to a bush village on a charter flight.  Since I'm a pilot, the captain let me take the right seat in the Navajo.  We ended up spending about 2 hours at 12,000ft between layers.  I didn't recognize any hypoxia effects in myself, and of course the pilot was fine.  But the other 5 passengers were all complaining about fatige, headaches, dizzyness etc, and a couple of them are in far better shape than I am.  And since we were between layers, there was no way the other passengers could know how high we were.  Could there be some residual effects of growing up at high altitude? 

I don't nomally fly above 3,000 ft myself.  I think tundra toy would run out of fuel before I got her up to 12,000. ;)

Phil

Those that grow up in a thinner atmosphere do tend to have better capacity to oxygenate due to higher hemoglobin counts.  I don't know if there are any studies relating to if this is persistent, but anecdotally, I've seen those that grow up in places like Denver, or Boulder, Colorado (about the same elevation as where you grew up), tend to keep and have a higher tollerance for altitude changes and adapt more quickly.   It would be a good study to run.  I also know that the military trains the elite "black ops" groups in high altitude conditions for months before deployment to places like Afghanistan to help them acclimate easily.  Again, anecdotally, I think there may be something to the development of tendancies for efficiencies if growing up in such environments.
We're going to have to come in pretty low!  It's just one of those things you have to do... when you land!  -- Ted Striker - Airplane!

Offline Baradium

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1602
Re: Higher Altitudes and O2
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2006, 05:40:35 AM »
Oxygen rules vary by operation.

We are required to provide oxygen on a percentage basis.  IE, we have to have oxygen availible to x% of passengers above 12,500 for more than 30 minutes to 14,000 and x% to 15,000 and 100% above that.   That's for part 121 carriers...

The smoking thing is misleading,  smokers are known to have worse night vision.  Smoking a cigarette before you go flying will also take care of any advantage for hypoxia (because your body is used to little oxygen when you are smoking) and then some.


BTW, you technically can't have a FL125  (sorry).  Flight levels are defined by regulation and don't start until 18,000 and even then a flight lever isn't 18,000 MSL it's 18,000 with altimeter to 29.92.   ;)

I thought it was so cool the first time I set the altimeter to 29.92 and got to talk about flight levels with ATC.  ;)
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
  -Johnny Cash "I won't back Down"

Offline Ted_Stryker

  • Chicken Farmer
  • Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 443
  • Never Forget 9/11/2001
    • Cyber Forensics
Re: Higher Altitudes and O2
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2006, 06:43:13 AM »
Oxygen rules vary by operation.

We are required to provide oxygen on a percentage basis.  IE, we have to have oxygen availible to x% of passengers above 12,500 for more than 30 minutes to 14,000 and x% to 15,000 and 100% above that.   That's for part 121 carriers...

The smoking thing is misleading,  smokers are known to have worse night vision.  Smoking a cigarette before you go flying will also take care of any advantage for hypoxia (because your body is used to little oxygen when you are smoking) and then some.


BTW, you technically can't have a FL125  (sorry).  Flight levels are defined by regulation and don't start until 18,000 and even then a flight lever isn't 18,000 MSL it's 18,000 with altimeter to 29.92.   ;)

I thought it was so cool the first time I set the altimeter to 29.92 and got to talk about flight levels with ATC.  ;)

The oxygen rule for us regular folks is that you have to have O2 on if at or above 12,500 for more than 30 minutes, 14,000 and up you have to be on it full time, and only after 15,000 do you have to provide it for your passengers.

I know the FAA wants pilots to be safe and alert.... but it seems to me that if you are in an unpressurized environment, and have passengers without O2 at 14,000 feet for any length of time, you're running a risk of them not doing too well.  I guess the FAA does care more about us pilots than the passengers   ;D
We're going to have to come in pretty low!  It's just one of those things you have to do... when you land!  -- Ted Striker - Airplane!

Offline happylanding

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1079
Re: Higher Altitudes and O2
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2006, 06:51:13 AM »
I guess the FAA does care more about us pilots than the passengers   ;D

Well, it could be a good idea to provide oxygen for both, but let's see.....who's the semi god who's flying?!?!?  ;D ;D
I give that landing a 9 . . . on the Richter scale.

Offline Ted_Stryker

  • Chicken Farmer
  • Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 443
  • Never Forget 9/11/2001
    • Cyber Forensics
Re: Higher Altitudes and O2
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2006, 07:12:05 AM »
I guess the FAA does care more about us pilots than the passengers   ;D

Well, it could be a good idea to provide oxygen for both, but let's see.....who's the semi god who's flying?!?!?  ;D ;D

Only "semi"  ???   ::)   ;D
We're going to have to come in pretty low!  It's just one of those things you have to do... when you land!  -- Ted Striker - Airplane!

Offline happylanding

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1079
Re: Higher Altitudes and O2
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2006, 07:26:00 AM »
Only "semi"  ???   ::)   ;D

Wait to be a fighter pilot (but there you shouldn't have any more pax, right?!?) and you gain the last needed strip to godness!  :D :D

I give that landing a 9 . . . on the Richter scale.

Offline Ted_Stryker

  • Chicken Farmer
  • Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 443
  • Never Forget 9/11/2001
    • Cyber Forensics
Re: Higher Altitudes and O2
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2006, 09:26:08 AM »
Only "semi"  ???   ::)   ;D

Wait to be a fighter pilot (but there you shouldn't have any more pax, right?!?) and you gain the last needed strip to godness!  :D :D



Very true!!!  Unless you have your RIO or ECMO along for the ride in a two seater :)  (RIO = Radar Intercept Officer and ECMO = Electronic CounterMeasures Officer)  Then again... you don't want those guys getting loopy on you! :)
We're going to have to come in pretty low!  It's just one of those things you have to do... when you land!  -- Ted Striker - Airplane!

fireflyr

  • Guest
Re: Higher Altitudes and O2
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2006, 10:19:42 AM »
Only "semi"  ???   ::)   ;D

Wait to be a fighter pilot (but there you shouldn't have any more pax, right?!?) and you gain the last needed strip to godness!  :D :D



Very true!!!  Unless you have your RIO or ECMO along for the ride in a two seater :)  (RIO = Radar Intercept Officer and ECMO = Electronic CounterMeasures Officer)  Then again... you don't want those guys getting loopy on you! :)
OH----You mean TGIB (the guy in back) 8)

Offline tundra_flier

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 798
  • It's not an old plane, it's a classic!
Re: Higher Altitudes and O2
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2006, 03:15:38 PM »
In the book "Glacier Pilot" it notes that Reeve Alutian Air was have a problem with drunk miners on it's DC-3's.  So official policy was to climb till they passed out.  If that didn't work, go zero G a couple times to bounce them off the ceiling.  ;D  I guess that pretty well setltled down even the roudiest pax.

Phil

Offline Ted_Stryker

  • Chicken Farmer
  • Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 443
  • Never Forget 9/11/2001
    • Cyber Forensics
Re: Higher Altitudes and O2
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2006, 04:21:08 PM »
In the book "Glacier Pilot" it notes that Reeve Alutian Air was have a problem with drunk miners on it's DC-3's.  So official policy was to climb till they passed out.  If that didn't work, go zero G a couple times to bounce them off the ceiling.  ;D  I guess that pretty well setltled down even the roudiest pax.

Phil

Hehe!  Great idea!  I'm sure that today it would get one sued in court though... darn letigious nature of things today!   :)  >:(   ;)
We're going to have to come in pretty low!  It's just one of those things you have to do... when you land!  -- Ted Striker - Airplane!

Offline Gulfstream Driver

  • Chicken Farmer
  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Higher Altitudes and O2
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2006, 05:33:27 PM »
Great discussion, guys. 

One note about flying at 12,500...There's nothing in the regs that say you can't fly above this altitude for 30 min, then sink below, then climb back up with a new 30 min clock.  Not safe, but not illegal, either. 

If anyone was curious about the types, they are hypoxic, histotoxic, hypemic, and stagnant.  Hypoxic is due to altitude; histotoxic is caused by toxins interfering with the cells' ability to use oxygen (alcohol, drugs, etc); hypemic is due to smoking (CO bonds with hemoglobin better than oxygen); and stagnant is from blood pooling like when your arm falls asleep.

Behind every great man, there is a woman rolling her eyes.  --Bruce Almighty

Offline YawningMan

  • Cockerel
  • ***
  • Posts: 173
Re: Higher Altitudes and O2
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2006, 09:50:15 PM »
I've read that staying below 10,000 ft is ideal without pressurisation.  I've also read an article by a female pilot who was flying over 8,000 who became disoriented.  Once she dipped below 8,000, things were back to normal.  I think it can depend on the person.

This makes me curious, though.  I wonder if a pressurized air machine would work differently than actual oxygen.  Of course, there's the military, who use pressurized oxygen in their masks.  They have the best of both.

My mother has been a respiratory therapist for as long as I know, so her speculations would probably put my guesses to shame.  It still makes me wonder if pressurized ambient air without accompanying oxygen has been tried in flight, versus accompanying oxygen without pressurization.

I've been working in the medical field for 2 years, so I know enough to really do some damage.   ;D