Global warming and aviation

[Mike]

I just saw this thread (good thing we have chicken farmers cuz I can't keep up with you guys anymore...)

It's funny that it just now got my attention. In fact I read yesterday that the wildland fires last year in Alaska (or was it 2004?? whenever the big fires where up there...) supposed to do as much damage to the ozone layer than all cars in the world together for a year (might have even been more...10 or so)
This is a little confusing I must say. I always thought wildfires are a part of the US, Canada and Australia for thousands of years....
There are so many theories out there....cow flatulence . . . and so on...

Recycling:
Coming from a guy who has been many places I must say the Americans have a lot to learn still when it comes to recycling. The Europeans are doing an excellent job.
We used to recycle a lot in California as well, but again, I got confused one day about this as well:
I was living with a bunch of (not so clean) guys in Ventura right after I got divorced and rented this little room from them. It was a typical boys-house, smelly, dirty, empty beer cans everywhere. And of course we always forgot to put out the trash on Wednesday. One day the trash problem was getting so bad that we just had to get rid of a few bags. We gave the recycling-truck-guy a beer if he'd take our regular trash with the recycle-crap. He told us it wasn't a problem and we got to watch him throw our trash in with all the "recycle" stuff....
...makes you wonder if the Wednesday-truck and Thursday-truck aren't going to the same place....

I do, however, dump my fuel sample into our diesel fuel truck. That's my little part.
But what do you do with AVGAS when all those old tugs, Ford Broncos, and old Jeeps go away??
How good for the environment are they?

And more devils advocate thoughts:
Yes, solar cells are great. But how much energy is needed to produce them?
(I really don't know, just one of the thoughts I have...)
The electric plane Zaffex was mentioning: How much energy or waste is made making this plane and it's chemical fuel?

Even if one invents a very efficient engine...
...will one have an unfortunate accident?
I am sure the big oil companies aren't going to like ones invention....



What was the best thing before sliced bread?
Before they invented the drawing board, what did they go back to?

questions over questions......

[spacer]

I can't tell ya much about the city-owned garbage collection, but one of my clients is a Fortune 100 company, and they have separate, specific facilities for
recycling. I believe they also handle loads from other companies as well as some city government fleets. Interestingly enough, it's a private company, and it
blows away the 'public' ones in safety, equipment, recompense, etc... (little private-sector jab at the gov't monopoly folks)

[happylanding]

Recycling:
Coming from a guy who has been many places I must say the Americans have a lot to learn still when it comes to recycling. The Europeans are doing an excellent job.
We used to recycle a lot in California as well, but again, I got confused one day about this as well:
I was living with a bunch of (not so clean) guys in Ventura right after I got divorced and rented this little room from them. It was a typical boys-house, smelly, dirty, empty beer cans everywhere. And of course we always forgot to put out the trash on Wednesday. One day the trash problem was getting so bad that we just had to get rid of a few bags. We gave the recycling-truck-guy a beer if he'd take our regular trash with the recycle-crap. He told us it wasn't a problem and we got to watch him throw our trash in with all the "recycle" stuff....
...makes you wonder if the Wednesday-truck and Thursday-truck aren't going to the same place....

I saw it happening once here, that the trash guys collected trash and recycle-things all together. Isn't it that the truck is compartmentalized inside and from the outside you do not see where the garbage is going into? Otherwise I could not explain the fact that they threw everything in the same place. BTW, I was watching a documentary 3 days ago or so on TV, and they said that one of the most important thing to recycle is cellphones, since the motherboard has a lot of components, among metallic and quite dangerous "metallic/ non metallic elements and compounds" that it's better not to throw into the bin, because of the toxicity. Yesterday I inadvertently broke a thermometer: Any idea about where mercury must be given?  I know it's highly dangerous and the fumes are dangerous too....

BTW, we in the first days of August and yesterday in northern Switzerland, it snowed above 2000 meters. Hope it doesn't mean that summer is over....

[tundra_flier]

In fact I read yesterday that the wildland fires last year in Alaska (or was it 2004?? whenever the big fires where up there...) supposed to do as much damage to the ozone layer than all cars in the world together for a year (might have even been more...10 or so)
This is a little confusing I must say. I always thought wildfires are a part of the US, Canada and Australia for thousands of years....
There are so many theories out there....cow flatulence . . . and so on...

Both 2004 and 2005 were record wild fire years in Alaska.  2005 as I recall had a tally of 6.3 million acres.  Most of the summer was IMC due to smoke.  We had a week solid where the EPA's CO meter in Fairbanks was pegged off the scale!  over 10 times the "safe" level.  I've often wondered about the amount of CO2 released compared to human production.  I did see a program on volcanoes last year, and one of the scientists they intervied stated that the AVERAGE eruption released more CO2 than 1000 years of human production at current rates.

Phil

[spacer]

In fact I read yesterday that the wildland fires last year in Alaska (or was it 2004?? whenever the big fires where up there...) supposed to do as much damage to the ozone layer than all cars in the world together for a year (might have even been more...10 or so)
This is a little confusing I must say. I always thought wildfires are a part of the US, Canada and Australia for thousands of years....
There are so many theories out there....cow flatulence . . . and so on...

Both 2004 and 2005 were record wild fire years in Alaska.  2005 as I recall had a tally of 6.3 million acres.  Most of the summer was IMC due to smoke.  We had a week solid where the EPA's CO meter in Fairbanks was pegged off the scale!  over 10 times the "safe" level.  I've often wondered about the amount of CO2 released compared to human production.  I did see a program on volcanoes last year, and one of the scientists they intervied stated that the AVERAGE eruption released more CO2 than 1000 years of human production at current rates.

Phil

Unfortunately  that doesn't support an agenda, and won't get as many grants, cushy appointments, and cute interns.

[fireflyr]

Gee, I feel so silly, worrying about the world my children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren are going to inherit---guess you naysayers must be right!
My wife's been wanting a Hummer, might as well get it---we don't need to worry about global warming---it's part of natures cycle, right?
Just because Greenland's ice cap is disappearing and causing the ocean levels to rise---well, that's not my worry, I've lived my life and everything will be OK for the next 20 years so I'm content that I'll not have to be inconvenienced because I'll be dead by then.
HEY, the dinosaurs didn't have any worries and they were here for 200 million years!
Don't worry-be happy (you can keep your head in the sand or any other handy orifice..................

[tundra_flier]

Fireflyr, Please don't misunderstand me.  I'm not overly concerned about global warming, I've seen about equal amounts of data that indicate it's our fault, and that it's part of the natural cycle.  I figure we'll know for certain in about 20 to 30 years.  If the natural cycle guys are correct there should be a definite cooling trend by then.

I am far more concerned with other polution than CO2, and very concerned that all the environmental research and legislation concontrates so heavily on CO2.

For example, one of my hobbies is aquariums.  Planted tanks get pure CO2 pumped into them.  It's the only way to keep the plants growing well without letting algae take over.  However, even a few drops any household cleaner would devistate all the fish overnight.  That's why I'm a bit nervous about the Hybrid vehicle trend, what happens when all those batteries expire?  Recycling or disposing of auto batteries was a hot environmental issue a few years back, there's a lot of very toxic chemicals and heavy metals in a battery.  What happens when every car has 10 times as many batteries as a conventional car?  Also, how much energy does it take to produce all those batteries in the first place?

I'm also very excited about the LEED program in US.  It's a new standard for building energy efficient "green" buildings that seems to be very practical and flexible.  I've also seen some new solar heating systems that look very promising, even here in the far north. (what ever happened to the passive solar house craze of the 80's?)

One of the things I've seen recently regarding the environment that really pissed me off was a show on one of the huge hydro dams in Brazil.  They concluded the show by stating that Brazil gets 95% of it's electricity from Hydro dams.  And state that it was a huge environmental tragety because of all the forests flooded!  What they failed to mention was that since Brazil has zero CO2 emmisions for it's electrical production they're getting rich selling carbon credits to europe under the Koyoto treaty.  They're also starting to use hydrogen powered cars since they can produce the hydrogen very cheaply using the Hydro power.  Definitly a huge environmental problem.  Demostatrated just how narrow minded the environmental movement can be.

So no, please don't buy the Hummer unless you really need a vehicle that big.  I'm trying to do my part too, when my old truck started getting to the point it needed lots of TLC, instead of trading it for a new truck I kept it, and bought a compact car.  Since 90% of what I do the car works fine, I now only use the truck when I need a truck.  My total petrol comsumpsions gone way down, my car payments are a lot less than a new truck, and there's one less older truck beeing driven daily, or taking up space in a land fill.

Oh, and I fly a C-150 which only uses 5gph or unleaded fuel.  Shall we talk about how much fuel a helicopter uses?  Hmmmm?

OK, I'm done ranting. 

Phil

[fireflyr]

Informative post Phil of the Phar North,
I not only don't have the answers---I can't even imagine all the questions!    There's no bunny huggers in my family but I sure feel that we all need to be better stewards of our natural resources since there is a finite amount.
And my wife doesn't really want a Hummer---just a new Yukon.

[happylanding]

If I'm not wrong, I heard that once an environmental group was fighting to have an animal specie protected, they won, and that kind of animal grew completely out of control, creating problem on the opposite direction: at first there were too little, after there were too many, unbalancing the "feeding chain". Same with forests: while the Amazzonia forest is being thrown down, here we planted, planted and planted, and now we have too much green that's taking over. So, any hint we give can actually be as dangerous as doing nothing: the right equilibrium must be found, otherwise we end up doing the equal mistake, but on the other side (on the seecond example I do not see any environmental problem but an economical one, though), maybe it should be seen as a chess game.  but I always stand from the "let's try to do something to save our planet side", since I know that we're not yet ready to relocate to Mars, and it doesn't definitely look as beautiful as Earth   . Why not? CO2 could eventually be a minor problem, but say ---- what about the nuclear tests we did during the last 50 years? or nuclear (and chemical) disasters, like the one of Chernobyl (thanks to the weather condition of the days when it happened, "radioactive rain" fell mainly around the site and here in Ticino, the part of Switzerland where I live, in quite big quantities. the amount of radioactive elements is still high, even more than 10 years after). I do not say we should start living as the cavemen, as the flinstones, but at least do our small part to maintain an equilibrium, since small part plus small part plus small part gives a result, so that we do not affect too much the natural Earth's life. Once done, we could be able to say either if we are the problem or if the problem is another "ice age" coming that we can't stop. If it's not enough to convince....for the ones who like tuna....it's quite known that tuna is going to disappear in the next years, due to violent chase, that doesn't give time to tuna to reproduce and he is unable to reproduce in artificial conditions. so, 10...20 years, 5 maybe and we won't have any more tuna salad, any more tuna  sushi and sashimi, tuna pizza, and so on. you sure you can live without it?? And yes, that's not a joke

[fireflyr]

Happy, I can live without tuna but my cat would be devastated

[Frank N. O.]

I've said it before and I'll write it again, the enviroment and nature is complicated so maybe global warming is natural, maybe it isn't, but there are thigns about our envirment that is clear to see problems with, like the air in big cities from traffic and big factories and old-fashioned powerplants.
It is true that electric cars cost money and materials to build that should count as well when comparing their envirmental impact to that of conventional gasoline and diesel-cars. But there is the fact that in dense cities there are many people that use the car for just a few miles, and not all have practical need for it, like carrying large parcels or being handicapped, but using electric cars in inner cities, maybe with a loaner-card so you just used it as a manually operated taxi and parked it at a re-charge central in the city that could perhaps reduce inner city air and noise polution. But the powerplants producing the electricity for them should also be clean.

Nothing is simple, it takes a lot of investigation and time and money, and with the western society's focus on quick fast media-covered results and 30 second speeches on the 6-o-clock news then times are tough.

Btw, some people also say that hybrid-suv's aren't really making an actual good impact on emissions, not sure why though, if it was production costs or if they don't really give less and cleaner emissions or what. Also, the heavier a car is, the more power is needed to move it and lately even sub-compact cars are getting equipment as std. you couldn't even find in a Rolls-Royce 15 years ago, but how many really need it? And what about the costs of sending the car to service and repairs more often?
In DK and other countries some new cars burst into flames on their own due to electrical problems, the engine-room is packed with little space for either repairs, or for the parts themselves. I can't even change a lightbulb without scaring my hand on the front chassis-part, and engine's get hot and they vibrate, so not having much space doesn't sound smart. It's not just the bottom-line that counts, manye things are connected and affect each-other. My chemistry-teacher had a 95 Camaro Z/28, she said it could do 8 km/l if driven nicely, but she'd never done more than 6.

I hope you can understand the intention with my post. Some things are natural, but other things are clearly not well and we should do something about it, for our own generation's sake, but we should look at all things involved in this process.

I would like to  the people here for keeping the conversation serious but calm despite differing opinions, it's pretty clear that we all want to do the right thing, and that we're open to new information we don't have ourselves yet but that is important instead of just holding on to our opinion stubbernly even though there is clear important evidence.

Action without guidance is at best a waste of energy, and at worst a worsening of the problem that needs to be fixed.

Frank

[fireflyr]

I made my contribution to the CO2 bank yesterday, flew to KMOD (138 NM) for a burrito and ice cream.   Let's see, that's 1.3 hours round trip at 18 gallons per hour........HMMM, I'll have recycle a lot of plastic water bottles to make up for that extravagant behavior!!!!  (yeah but the burrito was free)!  
It helped to know that there were about 350 athletes pedaling past my house doing the "Vineman Triathalon" who were not using any gas (other than chase cars, sag wagons, support staff prepositioning, police cars at intersections and race fans motoring to favorite cheering spots)
Al in all a great day was had by everyone including me since it was CAVU with smooth air and moderate temperatures.
The small crowd at KMOD was happily admiring the aircraft display and telling typical pilot lies (er I mean stories).
We had beautiful views of the Sierra Mountains as well as being able to see the San Francisco Bay Area and the Pacific.   A waste of gas perhaps but I guess thats the description of pleasure flying.
Gotta go recycle something and take my dogs out for a run, Ya'll have a wonderful day!!!!!!!!!!!!

[spacer]

Frank, I'm not going to come out for or against a particular technology. I honestly think we need to diversify to allow the market to take care of
itself. We're so heavily regulated now that only the current manufacturers have the clout to actually produce anything in numbers. Smaller upstarts
can't take the overregulation and die quickly.
There are unintended consequences with everything, some worse than others. Electric cars serve to relocate pollution from the city to the rural areas where
the plants are normally located, which dumps more power plant pollution on what had been a clean area. Of course, this is not the case where the power is
nuclear, hydro, solar, or wind. (each of those are also demonized by some of the very same folks who'd like us all to drive e-cars... it's a lose-lose situation by those rules)
There's also the other end, as you have to eventually dispose of the batteries, which have to be handled carefully, and with the expensive regulations on this, there'll
be a natural 'black market' there, too, where you don't know what'll happen to them.
This was something that had an impact in Dallas a couple years ago. It was getting so expensive to 'properly' dispose of waste, that amoral operators started picking it
up to dump in the river. Unintended consequence.
I see a need for cleaner air, as it's more pleasant and healthier to breathe, but when you pile on the regulations (of dubious qualities in the first place), you drive people
to do things which hurt, rather than help.
Of course, the next thing after that is the formation of a paramilitary branch of the EPA, which will, like BATFE, will start with the stormtrooper tactics and
will come down with a heavy boot on the neck of anyone who dares get outta line. (as well as the folks who simply disagree with it and must be silenced)
(/tin foil hat off)

[Frank N. O.]

Yes that's another point in the grand scheme of trying to get the world to work. One door closes, another opens. No one thing is perfect. As I see it then changes has to be made in smaller steps for them to work. I'm not saying that we should all keep score on polution and never do anything for fun though, like a fun-flight for a good meal. Let's face it, how many can do that and what impact would that have on polution vs. daily traffic and factory-polution? I also know that some people have a legitimate need for larger vehicles, be it for family transport or large items so I'm not trying to turn the world into the Vulcan Empire or pure logic here, heavens forbid! Hopefully the brilliant minds in the world can still have the change to explore different things even outside the normal envolope of technologies but sadly that's very hard as said above. No small new place has much of a chance to become anything in this globalised industrial world, but at least people are still trying

I however have time to think about things, most people I see and hear here in DK are so rushed and stressed that people are increasingly agressive in both traffic and shopping malls and with such stress then I think most people would try to take the easiest route, legal or not for daily chores. On the other hand, regulations are clearly needed, at least here, people think they know best, but they are proven wrong time and time again. I do however also think that regulations and laws have to be properly made and with a good purpose, but opinion on what is a good purpose is also hard to agree on. Furthermore it's hard to find a skilled person you can actually trust, mechanic, doctor, store-clerk etc. so it's not easy to get reliable information for those like me that actually want to try and figure this out. That's actually a big cause of continued confusion and lack of progress for the moment.

I hope this post isn't recieved negatively, especially since I've tried to write that I don't want to transform the whole way the world is living, in fact I just want my own little life out of the way of the big crowded cities.

Frank

[happylanding]

then I think most people would try to take the easiest route, legal or not for daily chores. On the other hand, regulations are clearly needed, at least here, people think they know best, but they are proven wrong time and time again. I do however also think that regulations and laws have to be properly made and with a good purpose, but opinion on what is a good purpose is also hard to agree on.

There are some parts in switzerland where you pay something as 2 dollars for a plastic bag for garbage (25 liters). I let you imagine what happens: public bins are used for any sort of garbage, so that you do not have to pay so much to dispose of it....  clearly not the most efficient way to solve the problem!! Trash hasn't diminished, just the place where it's thrown has changed! but that is one of the points with law: if men were virtuous, laws would be useless!