...3 bravo tango heavy...

[happylanding]

I always thought it was wide-bodies that were heavy.  The wake turbulence theory is a sound one, though.  Is it in the AIM?

Dunno. I gave a glance to the AIP but could not find anything related to it.
then I just thought that when you complete a FP you have to write the wake turbolence you develop (and you use light for a small aircraft so it's the opposite of heavy)...and why a person would need to tell you his aircraft is heavy when on air? what would be the utility of saying so, if not to avoid any problem to the other aicraft? and maybe not being given a small grass rwy? well, again morning thoughts....     

Among 140 members, somebody has to find the right answer!! 

[ZAIZAI]

Ahh, the not so aviation avid memebr of this forum to the rescue! I take no responsibility for the information provided I just like to prove to you all that I am a "Messerschmitter!" and not just an ordinary "Besserwisser"...

The ATC designation "Heavy" comes in place when ever an aircraft operating weight ecceeds 300,000 pounds, the term is used as a reminder to the ATC and everyone else in the air to keep to the separation minimals in order to avoid wake turbulence. I have heard that the 757 got the designation not due to the operating weight but due to heavy wake turbulence, can anyone confirm this or is too nerdy a question even for this forum?

Again I stress that I could be very wrong and missinformed but my memmory is, still, quite good and this is what I picked up by some flight jockeys at an airshow...

[happylanding]

can anyone confirm this or is too nerdy a question even for this forum?

thanks for the right answer! and yes, I can confirm. thanks to your info I could find a topic in another forum that says everything. it reports that:
the heavy designation is used 1) for wake turbolence issues, so that ATC can space the ACFT in a good way not to cause any problem to the traffic 2) for rwy, since they need reinforced pavements and not all airports can handle them. 3) DC10, L-1011, DC-8, 747, 707,767, Airbus310 are the Heavy metal ones, plus a lot of cargo 4) 300000 pounds is right. 5) And yes, I can confirm the issue about the 757. just give a glance to http://www.mbe.doe.gov/me2-4/oam/docs/fsn/9401.htm


......We just needed something to start with! And who could have imagined that it was going to be the answer given by a skydiver?  

[happylanding]

Even better: I found the following related to Italy

Turbolenza di scia del Boeing 757
 (Rif. AIP-Italia, RAC 1 para 21.1; ODS DG 2/04, Nota Tecnica para 5.2.6)
L’ICAO classifica il B757 come aeromobile di categoria “MEDIUM”. Dato che questo tipo di aeromobile, per le sue peculiari caratteristiche aerodinamiche, risulta generare una turbolenza di scia equivalente a quella di aeromobili di categoria superiore, le norme che disciplinano la separazione per turbolenza di scia in Italia sono state così modificate, a seconda che tale tipo di aeromobile preceda o segua un altro aeromobile in arrivo o partenza:
 se precede, il B757 deve essere considerato di categoria “HEAVY” e l’Ente ATC deve applicare la minima di separazione per turbolenza di scia stabilita per tale categoria.
  se segue, il B757 deve essere considerato di categoria “MEDIUM” e l’Ente ATC deve applicare la minima di separazione per turbolenza di scia stabilita per tale categoria.

that means: ICAO classifies B757 as a Medium cat aircraft. considered that this ACFT; due to his peculiar aerodynamic characteristics, generates a wake turbolence that is like one generated by a superior cat ACFT, the laws in italy for the separation of ACFT for wake turbolence are modified in the following way:  If preceeding, the B757 must be considered of a Heavy cat and the ATC musst apply the minimum separation for wake turbolence for this cat. if following, it must be considered of medium cat and the ATC must apply the minimum separation for wake turbolence for this cat.

Searching again inside the Swiss AIP I could also find the following:
L cat  when MTOM is of 7000 kg or less
S cat  when MTOM is between 7000 and 40000 kg
M cat when MTOM is between 40000 and 136 kg
H cat when MTOM is more than 136000 kg

So, with Hans, the Cessna definely was an Heavy!!!!!!

[Gulfstream Driver]

I always thought it was wide-bodies that were heavy.  The wake turbulence theory is a sound one, though.  Is it in the AIM?

Dunno. I gave a glance to the AIP but could not find anything related to it.
then I just thought that when you complete a FP you have to write the wake turbolence you develop (and you use light for a small aircraft so it's the opposite of heavy)...and why a person would need to tell you his aircraft is heavy when on air? what would be the utility of saying so, if not to avoid any problem to the other aicraft? and maybe not being given a small grass rwy? well, again morning thoughts....     

Among 140 members, somebody has to find the right answer!! 

So, you have to tell ATC what your wake turbulence is going to be before you go fly?  Are they not bright enough to remember that a 172 might be a light aircraft?

[happylanding]

So, you have to tell ATC what your wake turbulence is going to be before you go fly?  Are they not bright enough to remember that a 172 might be a light aircraft?

HAHAHA Maybe a 172, but what about a P28A ?!?
I never told directly to ATC the kind of wake turbolence my (oh would be beautiful..... the ACFT I use) plane develops............probably because they vacate the entire airport when I go flying!!! 
Jokes apart, We have to write down in any FP we fill the kind of turbolence. But Lugano Airport is a small airport, so we never hear about Boeing whatever or flying things alike. the biggest planes that you can find here are Saab 2000 (a.k.a. Concordino "Small Concorde") and Fairchild Dornier 328-110, so the people in the tower probably never heard about an heavy passing by!

See, we are a 1 terminal, 2 gates, and 1 rwy (19/01) strip airport! I think that for a US standard this would mean the airstrip in the back of the house!

 

[Mike]

I just now got the answer from an actual wide-body captain, but it looks
like you guys have figured it out already.
I'll post it anyways:

The answer to your question (Is it weight or wake turbulence?) is: Yes. For years only weight was considered as a method of determining wake turbulence, but then (after a few incidences) it became apparent that the B-757, although not a "heavy" by ICAO standards (300,000 lbs. gross T/O, I think) produced as much turbulence fully loaded as a lightly loaded 747. Hence, the term "heavy" is given to the true heavy weights and the 757 and used in all ATC com to remind everybody to cut the fat boy a little extra room or get to see some unusual attitude recoveries.

Now it all makes sense, doesn't it?! 

[ZAIZAI]

can anyone confirm this or is too nerdy a question even for this forum?

......We just needed something to start with! And who could have imagined that it was going to be the answer given by a skydiver?  

Well, the few times I have jumped with transponder and radio gear I probably should have been edsignated "heavy", in free fall at least...or perhaps just all the time. Remember folks, big belly cleaves the air better than a six pack.

[happylanding]

Well, the few times I have jumped with transponder and radio gear I probably should have been edsignated "heavy", in free fall at least...or perhaps just all the time. Remember folks, big belly cleaves the air better than a six pack.

I'll tell the Piper to put on some weight then! 

[Firegirl]

WOW!!
Thanks guys! I wasn't expecting THIS much information.
Boy, I feel smarter after reading all of this.
I think I can go home now! 




Oh! And don't forget not to walk to close behind Hans !!!
I am sure there are some swirls behind that wide body    
(HA HA I am cracking myself up!)

[Gulfstream Driver]

So, you have to tell ATC what your wake turbulence is going to be before you go fly?  Are they not bright enough to remember that a 172 might be a light aircraft?

HAHAHA Maybe a 172, but what about a P28A ?!?
I never told directly to ATC the kind of wake turbolence my (oh would be beautiful..... the ACFT I use) plane develops............probably because they vacate the entire airport when I go flying!!! 
Jokes apart, We have to write down in any FP we fill the kind of turbolence. But Lugano Airport is a small airport, so we never hear about Boeing whatever or flying things alike. the biggest planes that you can find here are Saab 2000 (a.k.a. Concordino "Small Concorde") and Fairchild Dornier 328-110, so the people in the tower probably never heard about an heavy passing by!

See, we are a 1 terminal, 2 gates, and 1 rwy (19/01) strip airport! I think that for a US standard this would mean the airstrip in the back of the house!

 

I'm sure the ratio of large to small airports is about the same here as it is in Switzerland.  Within 35 nm of Fargo, we have 1 airport for regular air carriers and almost a dozen small, single runway, non-towered airports.  Makes it really nice for training, because you can get out of the busy traffic areas, but still have the ATC experience of a large airport. 

I'm still hung up on filing a flight plan with your wake turbulence.  I don't get it.  Why do they require it?  A P-28 generates the same wake turbulence, whether it's a Cherokee, a Cadet, or a Warrior.  Why doesn't ATC know the type of wake turbulence you generate, or at least have it on the computer or a list somewhere in the cab?  Please help me understand!         

[happylanding]

I'm sure the ratio of large to small airports is about the same here as it is in Switzerland.  Within 35 nm of Fargo, we have 1 airport for regular air carriers and almost a dozen small, single runway, non-towered airports.  Makes it really nice for training, because you can get out of the busy traffic areas, but still have the ATC experience of a large airport. 

I'm still hung up on filing a flight plan with your wake turbulence.  I don't get it.  Why do they require it?  A P-28 generates the same wake turbulence, whether it's a Cherokee, a Cadet, or a Warrior.  Why doesn't ATC know the type of wake turbulence you generate, or at least have it on the computer or a list somewhere in the cab?  Please help me understand!         

they surely have a list somewhere and probably every ATC man knows the cat of the majority of aircraft he sees in his everyday's life. But the fact remains that when you fill a FP, you have to write as you see in the following lines, the wake turbolence you develop.
I tried to find a facsimile of a FP on the net, but couldn't find. anyhow it asks as follows: aircraft identification/ flight rules/ type of flight/ number/ type of aircraft (here I write P28A)/ wake turbolence cat (L,S,M,H)/ equipment/ departure aerodrome/ time/ cruising speed/ level/ route/destination airport/ total EET/ alternate aerodrome/2nd alternate aerodrome/ other info/ endurance/ persons on board/ emergency radio/ survival equipment (no/yes which one)/ jackets (no/yes which one)/ dinghies (no/yes number, capacity, cover, colour)/ aircraft colour and markings/ remarks/ pilot in command. I hope it's clearer now. Maybe it's just an administrative hassle? don't you have this kind of FP in the US?
we usually fill it when flying on the Alps (recommended), when flying out of the country and at night (compulsory). If you just do a local flight you can just fill a shorter report (and in that case you just write (I've to tell it by heart so I hope I won't forget anything): acft ident/take off mass (you see? again!)/type of aircraft/outbound route/persons on board/alternate aerodrome/endurance/EET/PIC/time of departure/ and cross if you're doing school/general/aerobatic flight or AD/check that you read metar/notam. And it should be everything, if my memory isn't failing!


 
 

[Stef]

Oh! And don't forget not to walk to close behind Hans !!!
I am sure there are some swirls behind that wide body    
(HA HA I am cracking myself up!)

HAHAHA! This is great! I can really picture Sally being knocked off her feet if Hans rushes past her! 

[happylanding]

Oh! And don't forget not to walk to close behind Hans !!!
I am sure there are some swirls behind that wide body    
(HA HA I am cracking myself up!)

HAHAHA! This is great! I can really picture Sally being knocked off her feet if Hans rushes past her! 

You're right!!! 

Scene goes: Sally grounded near the coffee machine.
Julio and Chuck entering into the room, Another door swirling closed, a quick glance to Hans walking away.
Julio:Hey, what's up? what happened to Sally?
Chuck: it must have been some wake turbolence, from that (eyes pointing in the direction of Hans) heavy body....

[Gulfstream Driver]

Maybe I'm hung up on this flight plan thing too much. 

All we're required to fill out (if we even file) is type of flight plan, a/c ID, a/c type (with equipment:  transponder, VOR, GPS, etc), departure airport, altitude, departure time, route of flight (direct, airways, etc), destination, time enroute, any remarks, fuel on board, any alternates, pilot's name and home base, souls on board, and color. 

Guess I just wanted to understand why all the extra stuff, while nice to know, is a requirement for a flight plan...