Author Topic: Missed Approach  (Read 6827 times)

Offline undatc

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Missed Approach
« on: April 28, 2011, 03:18:42 PM »
So, its the magical time of year, where the FAA decides that after a winter of chaos, they will "refresh" us on some techniques.  Most of the controllers are livid right now over a way the supes want us to issue this clearance, here's the scenario.

N123 is at an airport on an IFR clearance, requests multiple practice approaches and touch an gos.  He is currently missed and states that after this approach he would like a clearance back to home.  What do you do?

What me, and 99.9999999% of all the controllers in the room agree upon, is that "upon completion of this approach, fly the published missed, expect climb and maintain X altitude".  Where the X altitude is an appropriate altitude that would allow us to issue a clearance for his trip home.  N123 would then be expected to fly the approach, do his touch and go/low approach (whatever he wants), go missed then climb to the altitude ATC assigns.

What the supes say is that, we can issue his departure clearance to him on his approach, as once he crosses the end of the runway he becomes a departure aircraft so therefore we can assign him his departure clearance.  Which we disagree with for several reasons:

1)   An aircraft conducting an IFR approach ‘owns’ the entire approach, which includes the missed approach, so he has the prerogative to fly it if he wants. (IE we cant tell him to not fly it, and then fly something else instead, unless they are alternate missed approach procedures.)
2)   Departure procedures are flight checked for aircraft that are on the ground at the airport, not airborne already conducting an approach.
3)   The AIM clearly states that an aircraft shall declare missed not later than DH, however in the real world, I would expect that its possible for an aircraft to declare missed even after they’ve touched down (ie we just landed and “oh ^&*% there’s a truck on the runway”).
4)   Lastly, by assigning the departure clearance, you’re also authorizing that aircraft to fly any departure procedure that applies to the airport.  Everything from the ODP to a full graphical SID.  Can we really expect a pilot, in potential IFR conditions, to dig through his flight bag, and find the ODP/SID, and then figure out how to fly that, as he’s shooting final in low IFR?  I just don’t feel that its safe.

So here’s the question; as an IFR pilot shooting and approach, in this scenario, what would YOU expect?






-the content of the previous post does not represent the opinions of the FAA or NATCA, and is my own personal opinion...

Offline G-man

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Re: Missed Approach
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2011, 09:34:43 PM »
Are we sure that N123 is actually IFR capable...

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=123

Aside from making jokes, I cannot comment as I have no instrument rating although do check my pilots every year on inadvertent IMC procedures....
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Offline Mike

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Re: Missed Approach
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2011, 03:52:56 AM »
I am not 100% sure what you're getting at but:

When I am on an IFR approach, I get to call the missed at any time I want. Like you said, it should be at DH but it can be after that and certainly before that as well.
Not sure how I would feel about having a clearance right after passing DH. My mind will be occupied otherwise and it will be primed to fly the published missed since having a plan is a good thing.
Atfer I am all set with flaps and speed, I am ready to do whatever ATC wants me to do but not before and I am not sure I'd remember whatever the clearance was right as I was rotating since flying the aircraft comes first.
Also, what happens if I decide to not go missed (for whatever reason, engine, ....)

Also, G-Man has a valid question since what I wrote applies to an actual IFR situation.
Are they talking about an aircraft that's strictly a training aircraft and just practicing IFR in VFR conditions?


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Offline undatc

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Re: Missed Approach
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2011, 06:02:40 AM »
For the purpose of this, it doesn't matter if you're real IFR or if you're doing practice approaches in VFR.  We as ATC treat them the same for separation responsibility, terrain & other aircraft (unless we specifically tell you that we're not providing you separation services, which is a whole other debate......)

Part of the issue here (and maybe we can get rooster cruiser in here on this since I think he did some flight checking somewhere), is that the missed approach is only flight checked for a climb out at X fpm from DH.  The missed procedures (from what I've read), are not flight checked for calling missed after DH.  Stupid, but that's the way I read it at least. I agree with you completely that you should be able (and have the right) to call missed whenever you want.

Having the clearance is another issue.  For instance, the missed procedures at an airport that I work with, on a particular approach calls for a minimum 200 fpm climb.  But the DP at that airport calls for a minimum climb of 500 fpm. If I issue your departure clearance as you're on approach, which one do you adhere to?

In practice what they are wanting us to do (which I think is bad practice), will go something like this;

"N123 cross XYZ vortac at 5 thousand cleared approach, at the completion of this approach you're cleared to KSFO via XYZ as filed. Maintain 110."

I guess where/what I'm getting at here, is what would you as a guy in IFR conditions doing practice approaches want?  I know as I walk into the control room Sunday afternoon (from my nap  ;) ) I wont be doing it the way they are telling us.  I'll issue you the published missed with an alternate altitude to maintain, then once your established in the hold or above my MIA, I'll clear ya to wherever ya want.

-the content of the previous post does not represent the opinions of the FAA or NATCA, and is my own personal opinion...

Offline TheSoccerMom

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Re: Missed Approach
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2011, 08:44:18 PM »
I guess to me it would make ALL the difference if this was happening in VMC or IMC (practice-approach-wise).

Your mention of the climb gradiant required says it all -- no way would I flip from the published missed in IMC, to change to a DP that may require totally different a/c performance.  IMC, I'd fly the entire missed, then proceed on course.

But, in VMC, with the usual scenario of trying to hammer out as many approaches and procedures as you can in a short time, getting the DP would be an interesting change.  It seems odd, though -- I'd still want (and expect) to proceed with the missed.  Though, I guess it could be good for watching the poor bastard in the left seat thrash around with the box... 

I keep thinking of this, since we've spent the last two weeks doing just this.  And, with all the multiple approaches and holds and misses, in a mountain valley, I can't quite fit in throwing in the DP into any of those -- it just doesn't seem to flow right.  Your #2 reason, in your original post, is the Biggie, to me -- those clouds are FULL OF GRANITE.  Something just doesn't ADD UP.   ::thinking:: 
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Offline Chopper Doc

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Re: Missed Approach
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2011, 04:45:39 PM »
S-Mom, bringing common sense into a discussion of regulatory impacts is silly.  In the perfect, theoretical world of the FAA headshed, there will be no cumulo-graniticus, nor conifer-stratus, present in the zone without clearance - airspace is busy, and the intrusion of practical objections without FLOW is forbidden.
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Offline Busdriver

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Re: Missed Approach
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2011, 09:31:46 PM »
S-Mom, bringing common sense into a discussion of regulatory impacts is silly.  In the perfect, theoretical world of the FAA headshed, there will be no cumulo-graniticus, nor conifer-stratus, present in the zone without clearance - airspace is busy, and the intrusion of practical objections without FLOW is forbidden.

Nah, in a perfect regulatory world all the planes are on the ground because the pilots are a security threat and therefore may not board the plane.  ::rambo::
Ah, wait, that's the european approach, seems also that we europeans are super humans as with the new duty regulations that might come, longer duty times are possible ::sick:: At least the FAA there is more reasonable and is going to shorten the max duty times.

On the other hand, since it's ages since I've practiced approaches, if I don't know the procedures by heart, I wouldn't want a clearance for a departure that I might have to look up in my charts. What maybe would be possible are revised missed approach procedures like climb straight ahead or heading xxx, xxxx ft and thereafter vectors to an enroute fix. So I'd prefer your way to do it.

Offline Rooster Cruiser

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Re: Missed Approach
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2011, 07:55:09 AM »
Quote
(and maybe we can get rooster cruiser in here on this since I think he did some flight checking somewhere)

Sorry, but if you mean that light blue and white gov't airplane, no I've never flown Flight Check.  In reality; yes, I and countless others have had such clearances which were asked for (and received) by the right seater.  There appears to be an unwritten rule between ATC and operators that such operations are OK for flight training so long as the weather is VMC and you have a two pilot crew aboard, i.e., pilot and instructor. 

Would I as a pilot or instructor ask for such a clearance in marginal VMC or IMC?  HELL NO!!!  I am all too keenly aware of the cumulogranite that lurks within some clouds.  This kind of clearance is done in busy traffic areas in order to facilitate traffic flow and keep training costs down.  Imagine how expensive a part 135 checkride is in an airplane that costs $1500-2000 or more per hour to operate!

When I operated in very light traffic areas, all training and checking flights were done in simulated conditions with the IP or check airman substituting for ATC and doing the training and checking.  Part of the reason we would do this (other than to keep expenses down) was to see how well the pilot could perform under high-workload conditions.  Give them an unpublished missed approach procedure, which would usually end at the IAF for yet another instrument approach AND throw in a few system failures or an engine failure within a few minutes and the right seater will have a pretty clear picture whether this pilot meets standards to pass the checkride or not. 

Now that I am back in a busy traffic area, I see that this is done routinely with the blessing of ATC but I believe you have a valid point, und.  It's funny, but after all my years in the 135 realm of commercial aviation this is the FIRST TIME someone has actually mentioned this.  I believe your mention of fpm on the departure referred to 'feet per mile' climb rather than 'feet per minute'.  For the life of me I can't remember what FAA considers standard.  Durn it!  Yer gonna make me hit da books again!

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Offline Baradium

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Re: Missed Approach
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2011, 09:18:06 AM »
A missed approach procedure is only valid for at the DH or missed approach point.  Once you go past that mark, it changes things.  I remember some of the charts we had for AK had notes such as "a go around initiated after the missed approach point is unlikely to be successful"  and sometimes even less optimistic than that.  Some just say "a go around commenced after the MAP will not provide standard terrain obstruction clearance." (the JEPP charts for JNU were fairly pessimistic as I recall).

 

I'm going to go piece by piece on some of this stuff now.


So, its the magical time of year, where the FAA decides that after a winter of chaos, they will "refresh" us on some techniques.  Most of the controllers are livid right now over a way the supes want us to issue this clearance, here's the scenario.

N123 is at an airport on an IFR clearance, requests multiple practice approaches and touch an gos.  He is currently missed and states that after this approach he would like a clearance back to home.  What do you do?

What me, and 99.9999999% of all the controllers in the room agree upon, is that "upon completion of this approach, fly the published missed, expect climb and maintain X altitude".  Where the X altitude is an appropriate altitude that would allow us to issue a clearance for his trip home.  N123 would then be expected to fly the approach, do his touch and go/low approach (whatever he wants), go missed then climb to the altitude ATC assigns.

I personally don't like this clearance, I'll get back to it. 

Quote
What the supes say is that, we can issue his departure clearance to him on his approach, as once he crosses the end of the runway he becomes a departure aircraft so therefore we can assign him his departure clearance.  Which we disagree with for several reasons:

1)   An aircraft conducting an IFR approach ‘owns’ the entire approach, which includes the missed approach, so he has the prerogative to fly it if he wants. (IE we cant tell him to not fly it, and then fly something else instead, unless they are alternate missed approach procedures.)

Then issue your clearance as an alternative missed approach procedure.   At least it sounds to me like you can tell him not to fly it and to fly something else instead? 

Quote
2)   Departure procedures are flight checked for aircraft that are on the ground at the airport, not airborne already conducting an approach.

If your clearance has to do with a departure procedure, he'll be fine since he'll be ABOVE it.

If an aircraft is flying an approach and flies overhead the airport, it's not like a departure procudure is going to reduce your terrain clearance.   You are starting overhead the runway at a higher altitude and climbing immediately.  You are well withing all parameters required (if there is a distance past threshold you need to be it'll be in the DP).  It's basically like you got a big boost in climb for a few hundred feet (or more) on a normal takeoff.  This is why the missed approach has a lower climb gradient requirement than the ODP.


Quote
3)   The AIM clearly states that an aircraft shall declare missed not later than DH, however in the real world, I would expect that its possible for an aircraft to declare missed even after they’ve touched down (ie we just landed and “oh ^&*% there’s a truck on the runway”).
As far as I'm concerned (and I do believe it's in the books somewhere) a touch and go (such as your truck on the runway analogy) is a landing and a departure, not a missed approach.   So the climb rate you adhere to depends on what you're doing.  If you're doing an approach and going missed you need the missed approach climb angle.  If you are doing a touch and go it's departure procedure.

After the missed approach point you are conducting a "go around" and not a missed approach.  After touch down it's a touch and go, even if it's because of a truck.

The reason that point is in the AIM is because that's when your missed approach procedure guarantees clearance.  You cand use whatever terminology you want for a go around after that, but it's not going to make the missed approach procedure change what it is.

I'm a lot more concerned with the idea of someone starting a missed approach after the missed approach point than I am someone starting a departure procedure from a low approach

Quote
4)   Lastly, by assigning the departure clearance, you’re also authorizing that aircraft to fly any departure procedure that applies to the airport.  Everything from the ODP to a full graphical SID.  Can we really expect a pilot, in potential IFR conditions, to dig through his flight bag, and find the ODP/SID, and then figure out how to fly that, as he’s shooting final in low IFR?  I just don’t feel that its safe.

If he says he intends to go missed it's an alternate missed approach.  If he wants to do a touch and go it's his responsibility to comply with the ODP anyway.  If he doesn't want to worry about the ODP he has to go missed at the missed approach point.   The key here is that you want to get the instructions to him BEFORE he's on final in low IFR.  You can always ask for clarification if you aren't sure if he's going to do a touch and go or not.

Quote
So here’s the question; as an IFR pilot shooting and approach, in this scenario, what would YOU expect?


Issue the instructions as an alternate missed approach procedure.  I heard controllers specify this as well.   

I'm going to go back to this paragraph now.

Quote
What me, and 99.9999999% of all the controllers in the room agree upon, is that "upon completion of this approach, fly the published missed, expect climb and maintain X altitude".  Where the X altitude is an appropriate altitude that would allow us to issue a clearance for his trip home.  N123 would then be expected to fly the approach, do his touch and go/low approach (whatever he wants), go missed then climb to the altitude ATC assigns.

With your clearance, N123 can ONLY go missed at the missed approach point (consider the reasons I gave earlier).  If he lands, he needs another clearance becuase the missed is no longer a valid procedure.  This includes a touch and go.  If he does a low approach it's not really a missed anymore either so he's violated his clearance there as well.   Also, why are you giving him an "expect" altitude if you don't want to give him the clearance anyway?   

I would like to hear something more like  "N123, upon completion of this approach, fly the published missed, climb and maintain 5000.  Reaching 5000 cleared direct LAX (or to LAX as filed etc)"  If you can't issue the altitude yet, just tell me to expect the altitude and the clearance reaching that altitude.  If you can issue the altitude and not the rest yet, tell me to expect it at the altitude.

The thing I really don't like about your clearance is you told me to expect the altitude, but not what to expect otherwise.  I don't know if that altitude is your MVA or not or how you plan on clearing me.  The other way I've heard this clearance given is "on your missed approach, fly heading 360, climb and maintain 5000.  Expect vectors direct ______"  (or on course etc).     Now it's an alternative missed approach instruction as well.

Something else that has occured to me as I read your clearance to myself.  PLEASE do not use the phrase  "expect climb and maintain 5000"   There is too much opportunity for me to not hear "expect"  or for me to think you started to tell me to expect it and then changed your mind and decided to tell me to do it.   Tell me "expect 5000" or "climb and maintain 5000." 


As an aside, in the case of a jet, once we get our thrust reversers deployed, we're running over whatever it is in front of us.  If it's bigger than us, we'll have to just go off the side.  There's no going around at that point.  The risks of a reverser not restowing are too high (at least in the case of the one I fly it's forbidden to attempt a touch and go if you deploy a reverser).  And realistically, once we get the mains down and the spoilers pop, the chances of us clearing whatever it is we didn't like seeing on the runway are quite small anyway.


It's 1am AKDT, so hopefully this makes as much sense to everyone here as it does in my head...       My point is, word your clearances so we are all on the same page.  Word it as an alternative missed and give a conditional statement for the next clearance  (the "reaching 5000 cleared direct ____") means that you haven't issued the departure clearance until that altitude anyway, before that is part of the missed, right?
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Offline undatc

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Re: Missed Approach
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2011, 09:06:52 AM »
I think we're saying the same thing, not just saying it the same way.  Its ~2am here, grabbed a midnight snack and im back off to bed so I'm only gonna hit two things.

We're only allowed to issue alternative missed approach procedures that are published for specific airports, and not all airports that we offer PARs at have them.  Lame eh?  AIr Space and procedures has a master list of all the alternative missed approaches, and frankly some of them are so screwed up and convoluted, that they confuse us, let alone a guy solo flying his skychicken doing PAR's.

With the except thing.  I think you may have misread the wordage, big difference between expect and except. 

The published missed has routing and altitude guidance.  If I told you to fly the published missed, you are to follow both.  I can change the altitude guidance on a issued routing, as long as it complies with our MIA (minimum IFR altitude).  For instance (this is where its most commonly used), "N123, you're now cleared to PDX via the MOXEE6 arrival, maintain MOXEE6 altitudes, except cross VANTZ at or below 100 for traffic."

The same thing can be done on missed approach where we need to get a guy above terrain as the missed leaves him below our MIA, "N123 execute the published missed approach as published, except climb and maintain 050."
-the content of the previous post does not represent the opinions of the FAA or NATCA, and is my own personal opinion...

Offline chuckar101

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Re: Missed Approach
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2011, 04:49:45 PM »
5-4-21 in the AIM explains a lot of this.  Personally as a pilot in hard IMC I would rather get the missed approach and when established on the missed get my clearance for another approach or clearance to another airport.  As an instructor I would prefer the same to make the training as realistic as possible.  As for a balked landing off of an approach, the aim chapter I referred to says you still comply with the published miss, but stresses that you should get established on a segment of the Missed (course and altitude) as quickly as possible.  Similar to going missed off of a circling approach.
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