Author Topic: Regulation Question  (Read 6242 times)

Offline Mike

  • Supreme Overlord
  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3376
Regulation Question
« on: December 02, 2010, 09:54:09 PM »
Here is a possibly stupid question:

For a commercial pilot, fixed wing, may it be 135 or 91 (but not 121):

Is there a max number of passengers one is allowed to fly with a standard commercial rating?

This doesn't come up much with helicopters so I never thought about it. And certification wise there is a magic number of 9 pax, when it comes to our 135 manual. But I have no idea what the fixed wing world does......


Dear IRS: Please cancel my subscription.

Offline G-man

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2046
  • Cogito sumere potum alterum.
Re: Regulation Question
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2010, 02:05:57 AM »
Is there a max number of passengers one is allowed to fly with a standard commercial rating?

This doesn't come up much with helicopters so I never thought about it. And certification wise there is a magic number of 9 pax, when it comes to our 135 manual. But I have no idea what the fixed wing world does......

The max of 9 is to do with having auto pilot and not necessarily the pilot qualifications. That is why we are limited in the 212.....
Life may not be the party we hoped for---but while we're here--we might as well dance..........

Offline ZAIZAI

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: Regulation Question
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2010, 09:35:10 AM »
Well, the MI-8 and MI-12 helicopters can take quite a few passengers. Not sure if it is possible to put autopilots in sling-wings...
...Lurker...
I don't need an engine and a prop for my Skyarrow anymore...but I do need a testpilot for it. Chuck wanna step up?...on second thought, perhaps not.

Offline G-man

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2046
  • Cogito sumere potum alterum.
Re: Regulation Question
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2010, 05:53:35 PM »
Yes helicopters have autopilots. I think it is more about autopilot and lack of "black boxes".
Life may not be the party we hoped for---but while we're here--we might as well dance..........

Offline Cpt. Blade

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 22
Re: Regulation Question
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2010, 06:45:17 PM »
For a fixed-wing aircraft, as far as I know, there is no limit in the amount of passengers one can carry with a commercial pilot's license. But, I think we might consider the type rating a kind of limitation.

The thing is that most aircraft that carry more than 10 passengers require a specific type rating for the pilot. That is, if you have either a private pilot or commercial pilot license - for airplane -, you are free to fly most piston aircraft. But if you want to fly something bigger, or with reaction engines, then you need the type rating - almost every turboprop or pure jet requires one, although type rating themselves don't have much to do with the aircraft's pax capacity. For example, an entry level jet like the Embraer Phenom requires a type rating, even though it can only carry four passengers (the same capacity of a Piper Saratoga).

But I don't think there is, specifically, a limit in the number of passengers a PPL or a CPL can transport. At least, I've never heard about such a thing, not for these licenses.

But there is an example in ultralight aviation. According to this wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultralight_aviation, ultralight regulation vary significantly from country to country, and it says that in the US the regs are very loose, so I don't know how this thing work there... but here in Brazil, ultralight pilots are required to have some kind of flight training. The simplest licenses one can acquire here are the CPR and CPD, that in portuguese mean Recreational Pilot and Sports Pilot License, respectively. These two licenses are the minimum required to fly an ultralight, but with either of these, you can only fly aircraft with up to 2 seats.
Behold, the only three phrases a co-pilot is ever allowed to say: "nice landing, captain"; "it was the wind, captain"; "the fat girl is mine, captain".

Offline Rooster Cruiser

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1996
  • Retired Chicken Hauler
Re: Regulation Question
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2010, 05:52:57 AM »
In the US, any aircraft that requires a type rating will need an ATP rated pilot with type rating to operate in commercial service.  Any airplane over 12,500 lbs MGTOW or any Jet powered airplane requires a type rating.  If it is to be used in commercial service, then it will need to be flown by an ATP, but if it is operated privately a Commercial Certificate will do.  Heck, you can even get a 747 Type rating with just a Private Pilot certificate if you wish, but you will not be able to fly it for a paycheck.

Example:  A King Air 200 has an MGTOW of 12,500 pounds.  All a pilot needs to fly it on a charter certificate is a commercial multi certificate and second class medical.  Its larger sibling, the King Air 350 has a MGTOW of 15,000 pounds which requires a two pilot crew (or one pilot with Single Pilot exemption) and the PIC must be an ATP with KA350 type rating and a First Class Medical.

Its a function of weight rather than of seating capacity.  However there are limitations on total passenger seating which are addressed in other parts of the Federal Air Regulations.  I don't even want to go through it again after a day of Indoc!   ::banghead::

RC
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 05:56:08 AM by Rooster Cruiser »
"Me and Earl was haulin' chickens / On a flatbed outta Wiggins..."

Wolf Creek Pass, by CW McCall

Offline Mike

  • Supreme Overlord
  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3376
Re: Regulation Question
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2010, 01:04:18 AM »
hmm...ok.

Thanks for all the great info, guys!!

We wanted to do a certain strip with the 9 seat thing but I guess we have to think of something else.....


Dear IRS: Please cancel my subscription.

Offline Baradium

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1602
Re: Regulation Question
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2010, 03:41:17 AM »
I don't know how it applies to part 91, but in single pilot part 135 operations an autopilot is required but not in dual pilot.    Part 121 doesn't ever require an autopilot since it's always dual pilot.

9 seats is the max limit for part 135 scheduled, with certain parameters met part 135 can have higher seat counts for charter operations (one of the airlines in fairbanks operates a 9 seat Beech 1900 but since they've been working on getting part 121 they have the parameters to operate it in 19 seat for charter ops now).

Also of note:  For fixed wing operators,  Part 135 single engine piston ops are limited to VFR only,  multiengine and all turbine can go IFR.
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
  -Johnny Cash "I won't back Down"

Offline Rooster Cruiser

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1996
  • Retired Chicken Hauler
Re: Regulation Question
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2010, 03:51:19 AM »
Quote
Also of note:  For fixed wing operators,  Part 135 single engine piston ops are limited to VFR only,  multiengine and all turbine can go IFR.

Actually no.  You can get any piston single approved for IFR 135 operations.  What you need is dual sources of power for all your instruments.  This means dual alternators and dual vacuum pumps, if you have vacuum powered gyros.

I think it would be easy to get a Glass Cockpit Cirrus or Colombia approved if they already have dual aternators installed.  I don't know if they have vacuum gyros.  It would probably cost too much to install all that extra gear on a 30 year old Cessna, but it could certainly be done if the owner so desired.

RC
"Me and Earl was haulin' chickens / On a flatbed outta Wiggins..."

Wolf Creek Pass, by CW McCall

Offline Baradium

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1602
Re: Regulation Question
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2010, 04:00:15 AM »
Hmm,  I thought the reg was specific for that.  Also, although I didn't say it, I was thinking 135 scheduled pax carrier ops, if that makes a difference.   I'd think if that was all it took for ifr all the 207s etc in AK would be doing it, at least during the summer.
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
  -Johnny Cash "I won't back Down"

Offline chuckar101

  • Rooster
  • ****
  • Posts: 449
Re: Regulation Question
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2011, 05:04:14 PM »
I ran into this problem last year with the Twin Otter.  Its max gross is under 12,500, but you could carry 12 passengers if needed.  Under 135.243 (1) it states that any any airplane having a passenger seatining configuration of more then 10, the pilot must have an ATP.  One of those buried regs that are tough to interpret.  Had to call the FAA and some upper management to get an answer.
WOW I did that!