Author Topic: Contrails vs chemtrails.  (Read 10732 times)

Offline YawningMan

  • Cockerel
  • ***
  • Posts: 173
Contrails vs chemtrails.
« on: October 05, 2010, 01:37:36 AM »
Anyone else heard of this? Smells kinda like paranoia to me. I figured this would be the place to ask.

Offline G-man

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2047
  • Cogito sumere potum alterum.
Re: Contrails vs chemtrails.
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2010, 04:03:44 AM »
Yep...many times.... see below:

Looky Here
Life may not be the party we hoped for---but while we're here--we might as well dance..........

Offline Stef

  • Supreme Overlord
  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 807
    • Chicken Wings
Re: Contrails vs chemtrails.
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2010, 09:42:42 AM »
That's an interesting question! I think it's one of those issues it is hard to seriously talk about without being put into a box right away.

I mean on one hand, you have a lot of kooks filming contrails while mumbling something about the evil government trying to kill them, but on the other hand, it is a fact that weather modification is not only possible, but widely used. I remember the last Olypmics in China where they made sure it wouldn't rain on Beijing. And I think almost every other farmer coop pays someone to disperse potential hail coulds, right?

There's an interesting interview out there with Ben Livingston, the so called "father of weather weapons" who managed to steer Taifun clouds way back in the times of the Vietnam war. If "they" were able to do that back then, what do you think is technically possible today?

I also heard about additives that would create prolonged contrails so as to reduce the effect of gobal warming... I also heard that there's a new generation of engines that produce longer contrails just as a side effect...

Anyway, I don't really know what to think of all of that. But every time there's a serious topic, where you're not even able to ask questions without being ridiculed as a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist, it makes me suspicious.

Offline Fabo

  • Chicken Farmer
  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 967
  • If flying is a drug,then I am a first class addict
Re: Contrails vs chemtrails.
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2010, 08:51:32 AM »
Now there of course is technology to alter weather... specifically, to make clouds rain before they want to. Has to do with shooting iodium crystales (or something of that kind) into clouds so they go off before, or alternatively, still away from, the big day. I have read about it being delivered by planes, but in more of shovel-it-out-of-cargo-door fashion, or shot up the cloud by the means of rocketry. Hardly stuff you could just push through a jet engine.

It is true that newer planes are better at doing contrails. It might also be true that the engines exhaust gasses are just more prone to it due better burning and whatnot, but you have to consider that nowadays, airplanes are more likely to be found in flight levels better suited for contrail forming than some 20 years ago (compare optimal FL of 737NG is often FL400ish, A320 FL370ish even on shorter hops, while 737 Classic would mostly only go as high as 330,340)
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Offline Rooster Cruiser

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2005
  • Retired Chicken Hauler
Re: Contrails vs chemtrails.
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2010, 02:21:07 PM »
Anyone else heard of this? Smells kinda like paranoia to me. I figured this would be the place to ask.

Yup, its true.  Chemtrails are being dispersed by the evil government to control the population.   ::loony::  They are the same ones who engineered the World Trade Center attack to make it look like those wacky, peace loving Muslim extremists had committed a terrorist attack.   ::loony::  Oh yeah, the lunar landings were all fake...  they used a bunch of Hollywood stages to make it look like we actually landed there.   ::loony::  The AIDS virus was developed by them to destroy the African American population in the USA.   ::loony::  The government had all this technology given to them from the Aliens that landed their UFO's in Roswell and they are helping the government while staying in the most sumptious housing in Area 51.   ::loony::  And just because I'm paranoid, it doesn't mean they aren't after me!   ::eek::

These conspiracy theory kooks feed on all the attention they can get through the internet.  It has made it so easy for them to spread their lies and falsehoods worldwide.  Mark Twain once observed that a lie can travel half way around the world before the Truth can even get its shoes on.  This is so much truer today.  It always helps to apply a shock-proof Bull$hit detector to these wacky stories.  If the BS meter pegs, better discount it.

RC
"Me 'n Earl was haulin' chickens / On a flatbed outta Wiggins..."

Wolf Creek Pass, by CW McCall

Offline Mike

  • Supreme Overlord
  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3384
Re: Contrails vs chemtrails.
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2010, 05:50:20 PM »
Wow, RC. Don't hold back now, tell us how you REALLY feel!!
HA HA  ::rofl:: ::rofl::

What came first? The conspiracy theory or crack coccaine?
 ;)


I like the Mark Twain comment! That's great!
Dear IRS: Please cancel my subscription.

Offline Stef

  • Supreme Overlord
  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 807
    • Chicken Wings
Re: Contrails vs chemtrails.
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2010, 07:03:04 PM »
Well, let me take up the cudgels for conspiracy theories and theorists here, because RCs (and my brothers  ::sulk:: ) posts struck a nerve with me.

I mean, come on, people! This conspiracy theory bashing is beneath us, isn't it?

There’s this political tactic here in the German speaking world, which could literally be translated as the “nazi club” (club in the sense of mace, not organization). When you accuse someone of being a nazi or right-wing, he or she is more or less politically destroyed. He can try to prove he’s not, but the stain will always be there. It’s a bit like being accused of rape. Even if you’re innocent and can prove it, you will never be able to get totally cleared of the stain.

From my point of view, the word conspiracy theory can be used as a very similar unfair rethorical instrument. Calling someone who has a different perspective a conspiracy theorist is very easy. And 90% of the people will laugh and look down at “the kook” without knowing any facts about any side of the debate. The few who might want to learn more or even are of the same opinion as the accused will remain silent, so as not to be branded as kooks themselves.

It’s amazing how easily this works. For some reason we’re conditioned to be incabable of thinking or saying the word “conspiracy” without adding the word “theory” to it. Yet conspiracies happen all the time. If some people agree on a secret plan that is disadvantageous to someone else, it’s a conspiracy. Do you think it is ridiculous that there are conspiracies out there? Do you think that it’s unrealistic that powerful and wealthy people conspire to become even more powerful and wealthy? Have you ever picked up a history book?

What you do with throwing around the word conspiracy theory is that you mix up two very distinctive groups of theories. 1) Those about unprovable, already disproved or totally ridiculous things, such as aliens, faked moon landings or purple elefants living in the Arctic. and 2) More or less “realistic” theories about governments or companies etc. that, far fetched or not, at least theoretically might be true, such as a fake terror attack or hidden economic or political agendas of powerful people and companies.

Let me give you an example. I have a knack for economics, politics and history. I just find it really fascinaiting... And a topic that’s near and dear to my heart, ever since I discovered it during my studies of economics, is monetary systems. I have seen people call the fact that our currencies are based on debt, and thus, combined with compounding interest are inevitably set up to increase total debt and eventually collapse, a conspiracy theory.

And that’s why I have an allergic reaction toward this use of “conspiracy theory” as a rethorical weapon. I have been called, and seen others called kooks or conspiracy theorists about a subject that I studied on university, did a lot of independend research on, and very well understand the history and the economic and mathematical principles of, by people who obviously have no clue.

I could talk about topics, cite my sources, explain the theory, give quotations, and it will all be brushed aside by people with a dismissive “aww… now seriously, you believe that?” I don’t believe it, I know it!

And there’s lots of other topics that I don’t know so much about, but would like to learn more about. That’s why I find it unfair, RC, to try and end the debate here with a rethorical twist that basically says “don’t talk about it or you’re a tinfoil hat wearing kook who believes in aliens”.

I don’t know much about chemtrails, and I know that about 90% of what I hear is unscientific bullcrap. But I also am not convinced that it’s not true. And I also know that weather modification exists. You can disperse clouds, you can seed clouds, you can steer storms… so why is it so ridiculous to talk about it? I really was hoping to get some more serious insight here with so many aviation people around.

About 9/11: The official story is a “conspiracy theory” too, isn’t it? I don’t know what happened, but all I know is, unless you can explain to me how evil turban wearing farmes can outwit the best aerial defense system in the world and can manage to collapse a skyscraper in 9 seconds, without even flying any plane into it(!!!), I will call you a conspiracy theorist if you believe the official version. Again, I certainly don’t know what really happened, but I take offense in being called a kook if I dare to question “the officials”.

Well, am I a tinfoil hat wearing kook? I don’t believe in aliens, the fake moonlanding or shapeshifters, but I can’t help but think you’re naďve if you never question what your or other goverments are up to, if you think that politicians and scientists, can't be and aren't bought overtly or covertly by multi-multi-billionaires, if you think that the people “up there”, the multinational companies, the banks, the mega-rich have your best interest at heart, if you think that those groups are protecting you and looking out for you.

Okay, sorry guys for getting into such a serious a rant here...  ::angel::  ::sweat::

Again, I think we should be able to talk about things. If you dissaprove of it or think it's kooky, don't get personally offended, just ignore it, please.

I never really looked into this subject a lot, but now this whole thing has sparked my interest!

Offline Oddball

  • Chicken Farmer
  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2420
  • I crash better than anybody I know
    • Myspace profile
Re: Contrails vs chemtrails.
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2010, 07:31:47 PM »
Dont worry Stef I'm with you about consipricy theories................but then again I am called Oddball  ::whistle::
"You can teach monkeys to fly better than that!"and "spring chicken to sh**e hawk in one easy lesson"

Offline Rooster Cruiser

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2005
  • Retired Chicken Hauler
Re: Contrails vs chemtrails.
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2010, 09:57:38 PM »
Gosh Stef, I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes.  I was just trying to inject some humor into the subject.  Its called demonstrating absurdity by being absurd.   ::whistle::  Please accept my apology.

I have made a lot of contrails over the years.  I have yet to meet a single pilot who says he makes chemtrails for a living.  On some websites where this stuff is discussed I have seen pictures taken of "Chemtrail" airplanes.  They are simply King Airs with either weather mod equipment or NOAA weather sensor equipment.  To an untrained eye it would appear to be for real, but to a pilot it is disinformation.

I have also seen websites where people are selling - yes selling - pieces of special equipment which they claim will neutralize these harmful chemtrail chemicals when placed around a person's home.  This way the true believer can be satisfied that they are not having their minds controlled by the government.  Don't ask me how much they're selling this stuff for, I didn't check.

RC
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 09:59:42 PM by Rooster Cruiser »
"Me 'n Earl was haulin' chickens / On a flatbed outta Wiggins..."

Wolf Creek Pass, by CW McCall

Offline Stef

  • Supreme Overlord
  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 807
    • Chicken Wings
Re: Contrails vs chemtrails.
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2010, 10:35:25 PM »
Yeah, no apology necessary, RC!! I might have overreacted, but you catch my drift, right? "Conspiracy kook" is just such a conversation stopper...

Like I said, I don't know much about this topic. I always listened with half an ear when hearing others talk about it and never started researching on my own. So I was looking forward to a discussion between the experts here!

Once I heard someone (I think it was a mechanic) say that there is a newer generation of jet engines, that were designed to be less noisy, and for some reason they would produce bigger and longer sustaining contrails. That might be an explanation for the people who say that contrails are different to what they were 20 years ago. It also might be something in the fuel, as Fabo suggested.

It might also be just mass hysteria! I mean, some people take the fact that sometimes contrails are longer, sometimes shorter as a "proof" for chemtrails (i.e. long contrail = chemtrailing plane) without obviously taking into account the influence that temperature and moisture can naturally have. But I also heard someone describe persistent contraiils at a height of 4000 feet, and that sounded odd to me.

I find it highly doubtful that someone could mix something into the jet fuel without anyone noticing it, but then on the other hand, when do you ever chemically analyze what you put in the tank?

Like I said, I'm not convinved pro or con, and I think it's probably a much more complicated issue, but I'd love to learn more about it!

Offline Rooster Cruiser

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2005
  • Retired Chicken Hauler
Re: Contrails vs chemtrails.
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2010, 11:09:32 PM »
Perhaps we should look to some reasoned explaination to know just what a contrail is, how it is formed, and what affects it.  I'll direct all readers to NOAA National Weather Service website here:  http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/fgz/science/contrail.php?wfo=fgz

Quote
To answer this question, lets first identify what a contrail is. A contrail is the condensation trail that is left behind by a passing jet plane. Contrails form when hot humid air from jet exhaust mixes with environmental air of low vapor pressure and low temperature. Vapor pressure is just a fancy term for the amount of pressure that is exerted by water vapor itself (as opposed to atmospheric, or barometric, pressure which is due to the weight of the entire atmosphere above you). The mixing occurs directly behind the plane due to the turbulence generated by the engine. If condensation (conversion from a gas to a liquid) occurs, then a contrail becomes visible. Since air temperatures at these high atmospheric levels are very cold (generally colder than -40 F), only a small amount of liquid is necessary for condensation to occur. Water is a normal byproduct of combustion in engines.

This cloud formation is very similar to the process that occurs when you breath on a cold winter day and you can see your own breath in the form of a "cloud". You may have noticed that on some days this "cloud" you produce lasts longer than on other days where it quickly disappears. The length of time that a contrail lasts is directly proportional to the amount of humidity that is already in the atmosphere. A drier atmosphere leads to a more short-lived contrail, while an atmosphere that has more humidity will lead to longer-lived contrails. However, if the atmosphere is too dry, no contrails will form. Occasionally a jet plane, especially if ascending or descending, will pass through a much drier or more moist layer of atmosphere which may result in a broken pattern to the contrail, with it appearing in segments rather than in one continuous plume.

Now I beg to differ with NOAA in a couple areas.  I have personally laid down contrails in my semi truck when the temps were as warm as -26C.  I have also laid down contrails on runways during takeoff in piston engined aircraft when it was cold enough.  Simply put, the conditions necessary for contrail formation are highly variable since they also depend upon relative humidity as well as temperature, plus how much moisture the engine exhaust is adding to the atmosphere.  Change any of these conditions and your contrails disappear.

I am unaware of any changes in fuel specifications for Jet-A in the last 20 years.  Possible, but I don't know about it.  Newer engines are more efficient, and may produce more water vapor than older engines did, which would produce more contrails when conditions are right for them.

Can you see contrails at 4000 feet?  Absolutely!  If its cold enough, you will see contrails on the runway.  I know, I've done it.

Just my $.02

RC
"Me 'n Earl was haulin' chickens / On a flatbed outta Wiggins..."

Wolf Creek Pass, by CW McCall

Offline Mike

  • Supreme Overlord
  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3384
Re: Contrails vs chemtrails.
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2010, 02:03:33 AM »
Well, I also just tried to interject some humor into the whole thread. Sorry Stef!  ::bow::

But I truly don't believe in contrails, and I am talking about the ones airliners make, to be anything other than ice crystals (or whatever causes them naturally). Because just like the fake moon landing, it would be too complicated to keep that many people quiet about it in this day and age and to sneek it past all the pilots, mechanics, fuelers, and OSHA people out there unnoticed. That would have to be some chemical, odorless, colorless, which doesn't produce chemtrails on the ground when you start the engine, and added somewhere at the refinery, to slip through....

BUT!

I actually wouldn't even throw the alien theory out either like Stef did. There is no proof that there aren't aliens or never were aliens, by default and by Stefans definition.
Also, we still really don't know how the pyramids were built, why there are perfectly straight lines in South America, why the Inkas seemed to have built what looks like airports, why we were and are so enthusiastic about gold, why the native indians speak of "star children" and many other cultures have gods decending from the sky, what exactly "Mana" was, the strange food the Jews were eating as they were roaming around the desert, the list is long.....
Did we think of fiber optics ourselves or did they see that technology on the Roswell ship? If there WAS a Roswell ship.....

As for 9/11:
I my little-self can't prove or disprove anything with my sources but I did kind of think it was strange how 2 buildings that were constructed exactly the same but got hit with 2 different planes at different floors and angles and positions of the building can implode exactly the same, especially with the one that got hit last collapsing first. And then a building 2 blocks away suddenly collapses as well.
From an engineering standpoint and statics and what I do know it's a little weird. But I can't say it happened one way or the other because I don't have proof.

I am a fan of discussing these things and theorize however (as you may be able to tell by now  ;) )
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 02:06:07 AM by Mike »
Dear IRS: Please cancel my subscription.

Offline Fabo

  • Chicken Farmer
  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 967
  • If flying is a drug,then I am a first class addict
Re: Contrails vs chemtrails.
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2010, 10:41:32 AM »
Newer engines are more efficient, and may produce more water vapor than older engines did, which would produce more contrails when conditions are right for them.

That was actually what I was trying to tell several posts up.

As far as low-level contrail forming goes....
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Angara/Antonov-An-24RV/1634411/L/
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Angara/Antonov-An-24RV/1618140/L/

Make it be cold enough and you can have them on take-off and landing.
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Offline Rooster Cruiser

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2005
  • Retired Chicken Hauler
Re: Contrails vs chemtrails.
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2010, 10:54:57 AM »
Great pics Fabo!   ::bow::  Thanks for sharing them.

RC
"Me 'n Earl was haulin' chickens / On a flatbed outta Wiggins..."

Wolf Creek Pass, by CW McCall

Offline G-man

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2047
  • Cogito sumere potum alterum.
Re: Contrails vs chemtrails.
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2010, 06:24:04 PM »
Life may not be the party we hoped for---but while we're here--we might as well dance..........