Modern Instrument-panels

[Gulfstream Driver]

Did you mean JFK, Jr?  His problem was more his passengers than his money.  See what happens when you listen to women?   

[fireflyr]

   OK, I screwed up again--it was J fk jr--and you're riight about listening to the fairer sex (except for my wife of course-she's always right) but the point I was making is valid.   Some professionals who are succesful are at risk of exceeding their limitations in an airplane BECAUSE of their success.  Be careful here and note I said some, not most.   Anytime I fly with one, (a jerk) I try to broach the subject in a diplomatic manner after I evaluate the individual's ability---could be it is easier for me because of my age but nonetheless, I find that after being very frank with them about their decision making abilities, most are grateful to me for the reality check.   I'm not afraid to say what I think and I feel that's very important, a CFI giving a BFR is in a unique position to save lives.   Had a local car dealer do the "VFR into IMC conditions" thing last year, killed himself and 2 passengers plus he ruined a perfectly good T-210 and several cases of a great Sonoma County Cabernet---might have ben avoided with an honest BFR evaluation, or not.
If you fly with a jerk, tell him he's a jerk, what the heck, he's not coming back for 2 years anyway and if your employer objects, well, he's a  jerk too and you were looking for a job when you found this one, so screw him too!   I've outflown AND outlived most crummy employers, and that, in itself is satisfying enough.  Remember, if you wouldn't ride in the back seat while the guy or gal is flying, tell them so, you'll save some lives.

[Roland]

Interesting to follow this discussion. Here in Europe it is compulsory to have back-up instruments to the „screens“. Further it is necessary to have the screens electrically supplied to the very last extent. There is a complex system behind it to make sure this tings work, at least one screen with the most essential information on it. We all know, what can break will break. And it happened.

To the thoughts, if pilots can work with raw information only. I do agree with the idea, it is up to the pilot himself and his training. But go to any cockpit and take out the GPS. What will happen? Here in Europe GPS is not permitted to use as a primary navigation aid. But remove it. It is fascinating to watch the dramas which will unfold … I would think, that a pilot should be able to navigate with the common aids as there are ADF, VOR, … But no. Without GPS no flying. True or not?

Glass cockpits in small aircraft are a kind of fashion. If they are necessary there, I don’t know.

[fireflyr]

Good post Roland,

I believe all glass cockpits here are required to have backups and you are right about the unfolding drama that will take place if the GPS is removed from service for SOME people.   However, most pilots I know can navigate just fine without them because most (myself included) don't use the GPS to it's full potential anyway.   The point I was making in my last post (I was in a fiery mood after reading an accident report) is that GPS and glass cockpits are great but raw data utilization has to be the cornerstone of every instrument pilot's training.
If you can't fly partial panel on raw data alone, you have absolutely no business flying IMC---none---no exceptions!

Also, I was emphasizing the need for flight instructors to realize that they are the most important link in any safety program---many are just building time for a "real" job and lose sight of the fact that they are the professional pilot who can do the most to change sloppy habits.

So, everyone, let us take the time today to salute flight instructors everywhere for the thankless and often underpaid job that they do--- HERE'S TO YOU, GUYS AND GALS--

[Ted_Stryker]

Just to clarify, glass cockpits do have redundancy built into the systems, though Avidyn's seems to suffer a few drawbacks to theirs that are not present in the Garmin G-1000 series.  One also needs to be cognizant of how a given package works in an individual aircraft.  By that I mean the G-1000 in a Cessna cockpit has a different battery backup life capacity than the Diamond version.  So, one should not be complacent about what they think they know about a given glass cockpit.  It can change from manufacturer to manufacturer, and even model to model within the same manufacturer, based on what the manufacturer has designed in and desires.

In general terms though, the PFD (Primary Flight Display), shows an inset map replication of the MFD display normally on the G-1000 (yes, you can select this feature on or off), but if you should lose your PFD unit, it will automatically switch the functions of the PFD to the MFD instantly.  So, that's one form of backup.  Additionally, you have dual electrical systems, and a battery power reserve.  If all that goes away, you still have your backup "steam gauges" (hope you have a flashlight handy at night as per the FAR's though!).

In addition to having backup capacity as illustrated above, systems like the Garmin G-1000 use FRU's (Field Replaceable Units), so if one component goes out, you simply "plug and play" a replacement into the system.  Even the displays are FRU's, and work on a LAN (Local Area Network...just like a computer in your office) built into the aircraft.  Currently, the PFD and MFD are actually identical pieces of equipment that can be swapped out fully interchangeably.  Next year, however, Garmin will be including a number of new features, including a new alphanumeric flight-director style keypad, and the MFD will also have a fully integrated autopilot on it, so it will become a different part number than the PFD.

[Frank N. O.]

I'm slightly puzzled by this since it's said that the electronic instruments (aka glass-cockpit systems) have multiple redundancy systems and some claimed they are safer than old instruments, I think I read that in one of my US plane magazines regarding certification of a integrated flight suite, so how come there is a need for the so-called steam-gauges as well, do they have back-up systems also? Is it a problem of wires burning out or failing due to conditions on-board the plane, like vibration, heat and cold etc. or something else? For the record then while I would like a re-design of the six-pack then I don't think the system with the artificial horizon filling the whole screen and having the VSI, IAS and altimeter displayed over that landscape is a good idea, too confusing in my humble opinion.
Regarding back-ups then I did plan on having my plane equipped with special compartments for printed checklists and possibly also printed airport charts for my trip in case there was a problem with the on-board computer or the GPS system.

Regarding navigation with GPS then I also think that it could be a good idea to learn the classic radio-beacon navigation skills even if you normally use GPS which I think has good sides, especially with super-imposed data like weather, landscape etc. It would still be good to have a fall-back system that's tried and tested that VOR is.

Btw, speaking of night-flying and instrument-flying, has anyone tried flying in the night with a night-vision or IR vision system? Just wondering.

Frank

[Ted_Stryker]

I'm slightly puzzled by this since it's said that the electronic instruments (aka glass-cockpit systems) have multiple redundancy systems and some claimed they are safer than old instruments, I think I read that in one of my US plane magazines regarding certification of a integrated flight suite, so how come there is a need for the so-called steam-gauges as well, do they have back-up systems also? Is it a problem of wires burning out or failing due to conditions on-board the plane, like vibration, heat and cold etc. or something else? For the record then while I would like a re-design of the six-pack then I don't think the system with the artificial horizon filling the whole screen and having the VSI, IAS and altimeter displayed over that landscape is a good idea, too confusing in my humble opinion.
Regarding back-ups then I did plan on having my plane equipped with special compartments for printed checklists and possibly also printed airport charts for my trip in case there was a problem with the on-board computer or the GPS system.

Regarding navigation with GPS then I also think that it could be a good idea to learn the classic radio-beacon navigation skills even if you normally use GPS which I think has good sides, especially with super-imposed data like weather, landscape etc. It would still be good to have a fall-back system that's tried and tested that VOR is.

Btw, speaking of night-flying and instrument-flying, has anyone tried flying in the night with a night-vision or IR vision system? Just wondering.

Frank

Re: Backups.... I always carry paper sectionals, terminal area charts, and approach plates, with the ones for my planned and alternates at the ready in case.  At night, I also have no less than FOUR different flashlights of various kinds.  Two bright ones for preflight work, and two dual illumination types for in-cockpit work.  By dual illumination I mean ones that can switch between white and red lighting with either a twist of the lens, or rotation of a switch.  I also have spare batteries for each flashlight... and ... yes... extra bulbs for the non-LED lights. 

I plan all my trips with EVERY form of navigation, and am prepared to use each in case of a problem.  By that I mean I know my navaids, including my NDB's (if there is an ADF in the plane), VOR's, and I check to make sure I have RAIM on the GPS, and that I even have extra satellites in the constellation available hopefully.  I also plan with pilotage, and dead reckoning.  It may sound like overkill, but I have seen the outcome of poor planning when I was with C.A.P.  and I have no desire to end up an NTSB statistic.  Besides, it's great practice!

As for why the steam gauges.... it's an FAA requirement that they have them in the cockpits for these things... it's not a matter of the design being without failsafes... in fact, on the Diamond, the AI is electrically driven, so if you lose everything else, you're down to altimiter and airspeed essentially.  Just as with military planes having a backup AI, they have to be there to pass FAA type certification and acceptance.... but if the plane is bad enough off where those actually end up being used, something has gone dreadfully wrong with a heck of a lot first, and you should not have a situation where things have progressed to that point without having had adequate time to land somewhere... hopefully.... safely.  Of course, in the military scenario, you can eject

In many regards, there is more redundancy in the glass cockpit environment than there is in the steam gauge environment.  You can have an AHRS system failure (Altitude and Heading Reference System computer... one of the components in the glass cockpit systems), and you'll get red "X"'s appearing on the failed information blocks, but other systems will remain functional, and you still have the other backups.  An AHRS failure is probably the worst thing that can go wrong as an individual piece of equipment.... and it's more likely than an electrical system failure with the dual electric... unless you end up with a fire, of course.

[Gulfstream Driver]

Frank, if you look carefully at your post, you'll see you answered your own question again. 

Regarding navigation with GPS then I also think that it could be a good idea to learn the classic radio-beacon navigation skills even if you normally use GPS which I think has good sides, especially with super-imposed data like weather, landscape etc. It would still be good to have a fall-back system that's tried and tested that VOR is.

The steam guages have been around for 70 years.  They work, and they're simple to operate.  Theoretically, they should be the last thing to fail.  But, if those are all you have in solid IFR, you're in trouble.  Now, on the G1000, the GPS is a completely separate system from the other flight data computers, so if you lose all of your instrumentation, you should still have GPS and the radios.  Unless, of course, you have a complete electrical failure and all the batteries are dead.  Then you're hosed.

[Ted_Stryker]

Something I guess I should clarify too is that you DO have VOR, NDB, and GPS needles available, even concurrently, on the G-1000 PFD.  You still learn and use the traditional forms of electronic navigation... just that tuning your OBS, etc. is done on screen instead of through a traditional twist knob on a steam gauge instrument, and you have GPS added into the capabilities at the same time.

Between the terrain elevation, TCAS, weather radar, METARS and dynamic fuel range calcs, the G-1000, and other glass cockpits, have it in spades above the traditional steam gauges.

Having said that, consider this.  Would you want someone who was trained from the get-go on nothing but all glass to fly a steam gauge bird?  I think you'll find the answer is a resounding NO.  Why?  Because, frankly, if you fly a steam gauge plane without GPS on board (which still comprises a heck of a lot of the aircraft out there), it's HARDER to navigate with the old needle interpretation systems.  It's just not as user-friendly.  So, if you do want to learn to fly a glass cockpit bird, learn steam first, then upgrade.  A G-1000 cockpit checkout should run about 5 to 6 hours or so.  And once you go glass, you don't want to go back

[C310RCaptian]

I’ve been fallowing the posts here about new cockpits. One thing I fail to see is any type of IFR backup. Let me explain. If you are hard IFR in the cirrus and the displays (both) fail you can still fly an approach using the GPS for guidance (in the 172 or 182 you can’t even do that), but you can not shoot an ILS because you have no GS indicator and that’s a big problem to me. I fly in a lot of bad weather and it’s not because I want to it’s because I have to. If the ceiling is above ILS minimums we are going. It’s a fact of my life. And yes I do have alternates filled incase of a missed and I've only done that twice in my life. 

 Now If the GPS goes out with the displays you can not shoot any approach, not even a radar vector approach…. Why not a radar vector, because, there is no back up radio. The GPS is the radio. Both nav and com. So if airspeed, attitude indicator and an altimeter, qualify as a back up system then, a lot of people will be in trouble in IFR if there system fails. The only option you are left with is FIND VFR. You cant even do the 3 C’s of lost procedures (because that’s what you will be in IFR without any way to reference yourself). The 3 C’s are: Climb (no one has run into the sky yet... that I know of ) Communicate (that’s out, with the radios) Comply (no one to comply with).  Also you can’t squawk 7600 (loss of comm.) in the 172 or 182 because the transponder is imbedded into the G1000 also. 

I do love the abilities of the systems. I love the way it displays information to me and the user friendliness. However, I wont trust it just yet hard IFR without a really good backup.

O and I have no problems with the lancair. Plenty of redundancy it you look at it close enough. 

[Ted_Stryker]

I’ve been fallowing the posts here about new cockpits. One thing I fail to see is any type of IFR backup. Let me explain. If you are hard IFR in the cirrus and the displays (both) fail you can still fly an approach using the GPS for guidance (in the 172 or 182 you can’t even do that), but you can not shoot an ILS because you have no GS indicator and that’s a big problem to me. I fly in a lot of bad weather and it’s not because I want to it’s because I have to. If the ceiling is above ILS minimums we are going. It’s a fact of my life. And yes I do have alternates filled in case of a missed and I've only done that twice in my life. 

 Now If the GPS goes out with the displays you can not shoot any approach, not even a radar vector approach…. Why not a radar vector, because, there is no back up radio. The GPS is the radio. Both nav and com. So if airspeed, attitude indicator and an altimeter, qualify as a back up system then, a lot of people will be in trouble in IFR if there system fails. The only option you are left with is FIND VFR. You cant even do the 3 C’s of lost procedures (because that’s what you will be in IFR without any way to reference yourself). The 3 C’s are: Climb (no one has run into the sky yet... that I know of ) Communicate (that’s out, with the radios) Comply (no one to comply with).  Also you can’t squawk 7600 (loss of comm.) in the 172 or 182 because the transponder is embedded into the G1000 also. 

I do love the abilities of the systems. I love the way it displays information to me and the user friendliness. However, I wont trust it just yet hard IFR without a really good backup.

O and I have no problems with the Lancair. Plenty of redundancy it you look at it close enough. 

I do tend to agree with you about the hard IFR, but things can fail in a conventional cockpit too.  You can have a VOR head go out, and unless you have GS on both VOR's, you've just lost vertical guidance that way.  The next thing you do is your backup with time and maintaining your airspeed so you end up where you are supposed to be on the approach, as you already know.  No system is perfect, that's for sure.  Something can always break somewhere.  It's also why, even with two nav/comms, I still carry my Sporty's SP200 Transceiver with me for both a NAV and COMM backup... and I have plenty of spare batteries preloaded in a backup battery pack for it too.

Let's face it... Murphy's Law prevails.... and Murphy was an optimist!! 

[Gulfstream Driver]

It wouldn't be a bad idea to carry at least Ted's tranceiver.  I would opt for that and a hand-held GPS, if I had the cash.  (Students, close your eyes)  Even if you lose everything else, and the weather is at ILS minimums, you can still get down.  In my mind, it's an emergency situation.  Do whatever you need to get down.

[Frank N. O.]

Frank, if you look carefully at your post, you'll see you answered your own question again.

ROFL I am really good at that huh

I must say though that, again, it's nice to see I'm not the only one that don't want to take risks when operating a vehicle, it is so comforting
I must say as well that Mr. Strker is really well prepared! My utmost respect 
The lights reminds me of a great aviation joke however:
Scene: Student and instructor are on a dual, night cross country. Instructor: Turns down the panel lights, "OK, you've just lost your lights, what are you going to do?" Student pulls out a flashlight. Student: "I get out my flashlight." Instructor grabs flashlight. Instructor: "The batteries are dead, now what are you going to do?" Student pulls out another flashlight. Student: "I get out my other flashlight." Instructor grabs next flashlight. Instructor: "The bulb is burned out on this one, now what?" Student pulls out yet a third flashlight. Student: "I use this flashlight." Instructor grabs this one too. Instructor: "ALL your flashlights are dead. Now what?" Student: "I use this glow stick." Instructor: "Sighhhhhh, just fly the plane without any lights, OK?"

Frank

[Ted_Stryker]

Frank, if you look carefully at your post, you'll see you answered your own question again.

ROFL I am really good at that huh

I must say though that, again, it's nice to see I'm not the only one that don't want to take risks when operating a vehicle, it is so comforting
I must say as well that Mr. Strker is really well prepared! My utmost respect 
The lights reminds me of a great aviation joke however:
Scene: Student and instructor are on a dual, night cross country. Instructor: Turns down the panel lights, "OK, you've just lost your lights, what are you going to do?" Student pulls out a flashlight. Student: "I get out my flashlight." Instructor grabs flashlight. Instructor: "The batteries are dead, now what are you going to do?" Student pulls out another flashlight. Student: "I get out my other flashlight." Instructor grabs next flashlight. Instructor: "The bulb is burned out on this one, now what?" Student pulls out yet a third flashlight. Student: "I use this flashlight." Instructor grabs this one too. Instructor: "ALL your flashlights are dead. Now what?" Student: "I use this glow stick." Instructor: "Sighhhhhh, just fly the plane without any lights, OK?"

Frank

LOL!!!!!      I can visualize that one, Frank!!!  Excellent!!

Sometimes it does feel like one of those old "Get Smart" episodes where they go to disarm, and it takes half an hour for them to go through all the stuff they are carrying on them!   

[Roland]

Ahh, now I know what’s in that big, box shaped, leather pilots bags.  Flashlights. Now it makes sense to me…