Author Topic: Modern Instrument-panels  (Read 16745 times)

Offline Frank N. O.

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Modern Instrument-panels
« on: March 30, 2006, 10:44:19 PM »
I wasn't quite sure if it fit under other threads but I have a few to show so I hope for the sake of order that I use a specific thread for it.

We've talked a bit about new and old designs and I found three good pictures of designs, two new planes and one brand-new update I'd like to show.

First off is Eric Lindberg's Lancair, a version with conventional instruments as opposed to the optional TFT screen, but the layout and "look" of the panel is at least for me a world of difference from the flat plate of say a classic Cessna.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0237443/L/
A glass-version is here:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0925812/L/
One of the really noticeable details is the strangely positioned control-stick, but the position of the instruments, radio and switches seems very nice to me, but sadly I haven't had the chance to try one out.

The other contender is the Cirrus SR-series, here a SR-22
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0765666/L/ and another fantastic view (a lot better visibility than a Cardinal that's for sure) ttp://www.airliners.net/open.file/0796405/L/
I'd like to have seen the view from this SR-20 though, and I'd like to know what happend after that manouvre http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0951656/L/
Aha! Electronic integrated check-list! I thought of that myself, nice to see it can work: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0732336/L/

And now for the old school, a brand-new Cessna 172: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0868286/L/
And a 182 (notice anything special on the panel? I sure do!): http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0606391/L/

And speaking of controls, what's the thumb-switch aka hat-switch on the Cirrus-stick for?

Frank
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."
— Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Ted_Stryker

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Re: Modern Instrument-panels
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2006, 11:05:58 PM »
I wasn't quite sure if it fit under other threads but I have a few to show so I hope for the sake of order that I use a specific thread for it.

We've talked a bit about new and old designs and I found three good pictures of designs, two new planes and one brand-new update I'd like to show.

First off is Eric Lindberg's Lancair, a version with conventional instruments as opposed to the optional TFT screen, but the layout and "look" of the panel is at least for me a world of difference from the flat plate of say a classic Cessna.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0237443/L/
A glass-version is here:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0925812/L/
One of the really noticeable details is the strangely positioned control-stick, but the position of the instruments, radio and switches seems very nice to me, but sadly I haven't had the chance to try one out.

The other contender is the Cirrus SR-series, here a SR-22
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0765666/L/ and another fantastic view (a lot better visibility than a Cardinal that's for sure) ttp://www.airliners.net/open.file/0796405/L/
I'd like to have seen the view from this SR-20 though, and I'd like to know what happend after that manouvre http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0951656/L/
Aha! Electronic integrated check-list! I thought of that myself, nice to see it can work: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0732336/L/

And now for the old school, a brand-new Cessna 172: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0868286/L/
And a 182 (notice anything special on the panel? I sure do!): http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0606391/L/

And speaking of controls, what's the thumb-switch aka hat-switch on the Cirrus-stick for?

Frank

Not sure exactly what the thumb switch is on the Cirrus, but generally thumb switches are used for three things....

1) Electric trim control
2) Push to Talk switch for comm radios
3) Autopilot disconnect

I'm sure it's one of those three.  The most likely use for one is Push to Talk, since it's most likely a plane will have that first ahead of electric trim or auto-pilot.  So, if there is only one, that's most likely it (but please don't take my word for it and assume so... this is just by way of general info...final authority is the Pilot Operating Handbook).  On the Cessna's I fly, there are three thumbswitches... one for each of the functions noted above... and actually the electric trim is a split switch, so you could really count it as 4.  It's part of a safety interlock to prevent accident change in trim.   You have to use the split switch together to change the pitch.

By the way, the Cessna cockpits are the Garmin G-1000 system glass panels.  From the looks of it, the Cirrus are the Avidyne Integra glass cockpits.

We're going to have to come in pretty low!  It's just one of those things you have to do... when you land!  -- Ted Striker - Airplane!

Offline Gulfstream Driver

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Re: Modern Instrument-panels
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2006, 05:24:17 AM »
In the SR-22, it looks like the PTT is on the front of the stick so you can toggle it with your index finger.  If you look at the picture of the check list, you can see a good image of the stick.  The hat is electric trim and autopilot disconnect.  Haven't been able to find the separate trim control, though.  Isn't that required for autopilot and electric trim?

I've had a chance to fly the G1000 through CAP.  It's pretty awesome, and I'd say reasonably user friendly.  The only thing I don't like is the placement of the steam gauges in the 182.  They're placed kind of low and out of a normal scan. 

The placard in that picture would concern me as a passenger.   :)
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Offline Roland

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Re: Modern Instrument-panels
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2006, 08:49:02 AM »
Hi Frank,

thanks again for a good question. Modern cockpits, or “glass-cockpits" as they are liked to be called, have opened a complete new way of cockpit management. First, and very obvious, the design and layout of the instrument panel is totally new. The screens make it a lot easier to tidy up the instrument panel and to save space whilst getting rid of all the “steam-gauges”.

Secondly the screens make it possible to give information to the pilot in a different, easier and more understandable way. And the designers of such display layouts are able to send even more information to the pilot. Let alone all the warnings, where in the old fashioned way you needed one bulb for each warning. Now you can send all kind of messages to the pilot.

Modern aircraft will all have any kind of “glass cockpit”. Our DA 42 has the Garmin 1000 on two screens installed. The DA 40 with Lycoming engines has it and the others will have it soon. By any chance look into the cockpit of an Agusta 109 Power. You will see six screens due the EFIS layout. EFIS = electronic flight instrument system.

It takes some time to get used to the different way of information displayed. There are no flickering needles turning any more but status-bars. But once used to it most of the pilots love it. And the engineers can communicate with the airplane a lot easier. You can create so many pages on such screens … After all, this is the new way of doing things.  I don’t think that one will fit a Garmin or EFIS screen into a Piper PA 18 or Bücker Jungmeister.

If we have a Cirrus in the hangar next time I let you know about the switches in an instant.
If helicopter flying would be difficult, engineers would do it.

Offline Frank N. O.

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Re: Modern Instrument-panels
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2006, 12:37:09 PM »
Thanks for all the replies, most helpful :) For one thing I didn't even know small planes had electric trim as well as the manual wheel but I guess it just confirms that planes are much more diverse than cars, and I've only just scratched the surface of the differences, and that makes me wish I can continue to learn more, hopefully in person sometime.

Btw, Push-To-Talk is specifically the radio-transmit button right? The Cardinal I flew in had DC headsets and they were voice-activated for intercom use (that reminds me of the story about a couple up flying and talking about if they should be in the mile-high club, but they used the radio-transmit button and clocked up the radio-frequency for almost an hour! And forced the use of an emergency frequency for the other traffic, not sure if it's true or not, but it could be I guess).

Gulf, that's exactly what I was hinting at, and for those that didn't see it, it's the white sign on the far right, in front of the passenger, in red writting saying:
---
Passenger Notice
This plane does not comply with federal safety regulations for standard aircraft.
---
Yikes! However it was on display so perhaps it wasn't certified yet so it probably hadn't been tested or something like that, but still....

Frank
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."
— Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Gulfstream Driver

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Re: Modern Instrument-panels
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2006, 05:15:30 PM »
Yes, the PTT button is only for radio transmissions.  I've not heard of a headset that requires a PTT to use the intercom.  Many intercom systems will cut out when a PTT button is pressed. 

It is possible to have a stuck mike button.  If you're doing a parallel ILS approach, you're required to have 2 radios just for that reason. 

Also, if an airplane has a  2- or 3-axis autopilot, it has to have electric trim.  It's the only way it can hold altitude.   :)
Behind every great man, there is a woman rolling her eyes.  --Bruce Almighty

Offline Ted_Stryker

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Re: Modern Instrument-panels
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2006, 06:00:21 PM »
In the SR-22, it looks like the PTT is on the front of the stick so you can toggle it with your index finger.  If you look at the picture of the check list, you can see a good image of the stick.  The hat is electric trim and autopilot disconnect.  Haven't been able to find the separate trim control, though.  Isn't that required for autopilot and electric trim?

I've had a chance to fly the G1000 through CAP.  It's pretty awesome, and I'd say reasonably user friendly.  The only thing I don't like is the placement of the steam gauges in the 182.  They're placed kind of low and out of a normal scan. 

The placard in that picture would concern me as a passenger.   :)

Regarding the placement of the backup steam gauges....  It's like that on all the Cessna G-1000's.  I believe they are actually working on getting the certifications done so the FAA will say it's okay to have the backup steam gauges removed.  Not sure if I like that idea, after all, they still require it on military and commercial planes that have all glass.  I do prefer the way the Diamond puts the backups up top above the PFD and MFD.  Even if you never have to use them, you know they are there, and if worse comes to worse, they're in a much better spot.
We're going to have to come in pretty low!  It's just one of those things you have to do... when you land!  -- Ted Striker - Airplane!

Offline Gulfstream Driver

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Re: Modern Instrument-panels
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2006, 07:03:14 PM »
Even if they were on the side, they'd be easier to include in a scan.  Cessna should have called us before they designed it.   :D

I don't think I'd fly a glass cockpit without back-ups.  Just seems reckless to me....
Behind every great man, there is a woman rolling her eyes.  --Bruce Almighty

Offline Ted_Stryker

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Re: Modern Instrument-panels
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2006, 07:16:31 PM »
Even if they were on the side, they'd be easier to include in a scan.  Cessna should have called us before they designed it.   :D

I don't think I'd fly a glass cockpit without back-ups.  Just seems reckless to me....

You know what's ironic, in the military jets the backup instruments are electrically operated.  So, if you lose electric for your EFIS and WSO ECM Systems due to damage or other problem, they are not likely to work anyway.  Of course, if you're in that bad a situation, the plane is likely coming apart on you anyway as the on-board computer systems would be offline and the plane is going to rip itself apart in all likelihood... meaning you're going to be exiting via the ejection seat and not going to worry about the backup instruments.

I know one guy that actually stuck a smiley face sticker over his backup attitude indicator on his F/A-18 E :)  (No... I'm not saying his name ... the bovine scattalogical matter would impact the impeller blades then for certain! :) )

I do agree with you about not having backups in the GA, and other aircraft.   At least with those, you're not likely to have airfoil surfaces making corrections 30 times per second under computer control while in flight and you have a real opportunity for a good outcome.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 07:19:14 PM by Ted_Stryker »
We're going to have to come in pretty low!  It's just one of those things you have to do... when you land!  -- Ted Striker - Airplane!

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Re: Modern Instrument-panels
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2006, 04:14:11 PM »
I'm wondering how many pilots will remain current enough at interpreting raw data to be able to shift back to steam gauges in an emergency.

I consider myself both proficient and current but have, over the years had failures of a various instruments while IMC (actually, once a total vacuum failure another was a simple HSI failure, and another was a total electrical meltdown)  these caused enough anxiety in themselves which makes me wonder how a pilot trained in a glass cockpit will react to the need to go to raw data in such a situation.   I'm sure it will depend a great deal on the individual and on the quality of training each has received which opens the question of what kind of training standards have been set for glass cockpit equipped aircraft?

Just some random thoughts---any comments??? :-\

Offline Frank N. O.

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Re: Modern Instrument-panels
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2006, 04:51:50 PM »
I agree. I do enjoy to make things efficient, but within proper limits. I myself drove an old car, 1989 Ford Orion (Escort sedan-version a'la Golf/Jetta) and it had just a simple early mechanical ABS-system that really never worked, and manual steering and load-sensitive brake-force valve in the back and I think it was nice to "read". The new 2001 Peugeot 206 is much quiter and the PAS (non-electric to my knowledge) is bad, it often looses full "steam" when turning at low speeds almost ripping my arms off but I can steer wildly with 1 finger on each spoke of the wheel at freeway speed, and the Orion 1.6 mk2 weighed 875kg and the 206 1.4 950 kg but I've driven a Orion mk3 1.8 16V Zetec model with manual steering at 1050kg and it was no problem so I don't understand the design for the 206 since it just adds weight and swallows power and gives false readings thrue the wheel which is bad for slippery driving conditions.
Modern cars are so insolated from noise and vibration that I dare to say that what the driver gains by less fatigue does not match the risk of lack of control-feel for the car, and the new steps with ESP, brake-assist (and ABS that's made un-noticeable which is also bad) and even fly-by-wire brakes with no mechanical link and steering-systems that working to help the ESP can change the steering.wheel angle from what you turn, it's insane. Either you drive the car or you don't. I understand there have been good advancements like ABS, maybe also EBD and TC but ESP is pushing it unless it's for a road-train with a trailer, and brake-assist and the fly-by-wire brakes and steering (that used to be illegal btw) is overboard.

This may seem off-topic but driver or pilot, it's similar, you are controller of a vehicle and need to be able to operate that vehicle safely and that means you need to know what it does and if you can't feel anything, you can't tell much. The 206 is technically a older car with a new design, so the car has proven to be made with bad botched compromises to give it modern levels of comfort, like suspension-bushins so soft I have felt what could only be the links banging into each-other going over mild bumps and especially when steering out of a parkinglot with one wheel on ice then jerking the car sideways like one wheel's camber was changed when the wheel gained grip again and I was going slowly, and metal-klang thrue the steering over bumps also hint of bushings that are too soft, and that goes for the engine-mounts too after a bad start timed with misfiring on the electronic engine-management and the car's engine is quite weak, really weak.

Ok, the short of the long (danish version of: long story short) then I think a person should not only focus on the vehicle control but also know more than basics on it and should be able to tell what that vehicle is doing and not rely solely on one system, in planes that would be fly-by-wire or glass-cockpit instruments and in cars there should be wheel-feedback and noise-feedback etc.

I fear this looks more like a narrow-minded rant than a serious but serious discussion about vehicle-control but I hope you see the sincere, serious but calm points I'm trying to make, and that I hope to hear your experience in these matters to gain wider perspective.

Frank
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."
— Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Gulfstream Driver

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Re: Modern Instrument-panels
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2006, 05:24:38 PM »
Ok, the short of the long (danish version of: long story short) then I think a person should not only focus on the vehicle control but also know more than basics on it and should be able to tell what that vehicle is doing and not rely solely on one system, in planes that would be fly-by-wire or glass-cockpit instruments and in cars there should be wheel-feedback and noise-feedback etc.

This is the concept behind a Commercial license.  It teaches you to know everything about your airplane, even if it's mundane.  It's also why Private Pilots aren't allowed in the clouds.   ;) 
Behind every great man, there is a woman rolling her eyes.  --Bruce Almighty

fireflyr

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Re: Modern Instrument-panels
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2006, 06:34:42 PM »
Quote

This is the concept behind a Commercial license. It teaches you to know everything about your airplane, even if it's mundane. It's also why Private Pilots aren't allowed in the clouds. ;)
Quote

 ???OOPS!!!---What's that again??   Seems I've known a few Privatepilots with Instrument ratings.   ;)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2006, 06:37:05 PM by fireflyr »

Offline Gulfstream Driver

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Re: Modern Instrument-panels
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2006, 09:18:29 PM »
That's Cirrus's big problem now.  New owners only get 10 hours of training, then they're out the door whether they're ready or not.  Almost every Cirrus accident lately has been "continued VFR into IMC."  New Cirrus pilots are mostly privates with money and don't know their limitations.
Behind every great man, there is a woman rolling her eyes.  --Bruce Almighty

fireflyr

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Re: Modern Instrument-panels
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2006, 11:29:22 PM »
 :D  Sounds like the relationship of doctors and Bonanzas--often time, accumulation of wealth is seen as a sign extreme ability rather than what it really is, which is luck and timing, and after making that mistake, these people think they can just about do anything they want and disregard common sense.           ie; RFK jr   
I'll repeat "If not for Bonanzas, there'd be more doctors, and if not for doctors, there'd be more Bonanzas too."

The biggest killer among pilots with money is attitude--of course that's just my opinion and just like anal apertures, we all have our own. ;D