Author Topic: Hudson river ditching  (Read 18038 times)

Offline Jean Loup

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Re: Hudson river...mmm...ditching?
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2009, 11:17:38 PM »
heard a small clip on the 10pm BBC radio 2 news i think they found the engines still attached to the pylons.
  |:)\ thanks Oddball, long time no see
here the Flight Aware: airliner down on the Hudson link...now I am looking into BBC... ::wave::

Offline Baradium

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Re: Hudson river...mmm...ditching?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2009, 11:21:15 PM »
It is being speculated in the press that they flew through a flock of Canada Geese.  "Honkers" as they are known, are very large birds, with adult males reaching 7-14 pounds in weight and females 6-12 pounds.  Just one of these birds would be large enough to take out an engine of the A320, and it is possible that they injested more than one into each.

It is a testament to the skills of the flight crew that they manages to dead-stick a large, Transport Category airplane to a ditching.   |:)\ |:)\ |:)\  I do not think that is something that is practiced in the simulators, but I could be wrong.  What I am curious about is whether there was a backup hydraulic system operated by the tail mounted APU that would drive the hydraulic flight controls, slats, and flaps.  I do know that the APU is normally on for takeoff so there would have been no loss of electrical power or fly-by-wire control.

Can anyone here provide us with a little more information into the A320 systems please?

RC

I can't give you A320 systems right now, but I should be able to in a while, I know a few people who fly them.

I'll note that I would be surprised if the APU was left on for takeoff on such a large aircraft.  On the CRJ, which has very similiar systems on a smaller scale, we only use the APU on takeoff in very specific circumstances.    Two reasons are heat and cooling on the ground since the engines at low rpm don't produce much bleed air (not usually a problem with the large birds).  The third is any time we takeoff with our ice protection on, because the heated wings take so much bleed air.  But that is due to the limitations of our engines' power output.  On larger aircraft, the engines have no problem providing the bleed air to run both the ice protection systems and the packs (pneumatic air conditioning kits) at the same time.   I don't recall being on any large transport category aircraft where the APU was left on for takeoff.  I don't fly the A320, but I sit in the cockpit on A320s, 737s, 757s and MD-88s almost as much as I fly myself (one month I spent more time in the jumpseat than at the controls).   There are a couple reasons to leave an APU on otherwise, but they are due to deferal or other MX situations.

Since it was a clear day in the area, I they wouldn't have even needed ice protection so I'd put the chances of the APU operating at one in 100,000.    However, depending on how much time they had from the first engine failure, they would have started the APU when they lost the first engine to provide backup to the remaining engine's generator and ensure adequate electrical power.


Even on the CRJ, we turn off our APU in almost all cases passing 3000' AGL for our climb checks.  I believe the NWA A320s I've ridden on have had their climb checks completed at a lower altitude,  so even if the APU was on for takeoff (once again, I doubt it), it would probobly have been shut down by the time this incident happened if the time frames I've seen were accurate.

Rather than need the APU for hydraulics, the RAT (Ram Air Turbine), sometimes known as an ADG (Air Driven Generator) automatically deploys upon loss of power from both engine driven generators.  It gives minimal hydraulics and electrical systems.  There is a spool up time, but it's in the seconds.  

There should be electrical hydraulic pumps that the APU can run as well.  We can only run one hydraulic pump (our system #3 pump) if only the APU is operating, but we can run it.   That is the same pump that the ADG will run if it is deployed.

Also, it's perfectly normal for an APU to actually be deferred and inoperative for a regular flight.  I almost did that last night actually.  They didn't have ground heat at the destination and we were staying there 5 hours so we didn't because we wouldn't be able to heat the plane in the morning, but that's the only reason.  The primary purpose of the APU is to start the engines, everything else is just a bonus becuase it's there.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 11:24:43 PM by Baradium »
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
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Offline Ragwing

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Re: Hudson river...mmm...ditching?
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2009, 06:53:32 PM »
LaGuardia Airport is a busy airport.  Monitor aircraft flights at this site
http://www4.passur.com/lga.html

Video from a camera of the aircraft and ferries
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-183256

It is unfortunate that the cabin crew who helped the panicked passengers get safely out are unrecognized.
The crew did a great job.

Offline Jean Loup

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Re: Hudson river...mmm...ditching?
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2009, 10:10:41 PM »
LaGuardia Airport is a busy airport.  Monitor aircraft flights at this site
http://www4.passur.com/lga.html

Video from a camera of the aircraft and ferries
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-183256

It is unfortunate that the cabin crew who helped the panicked passengers get safely out are unrecognized.
The crew did a great job.
An Excelent Job! |:)\ |:)\ |:)\ |:)\ |:)\ |:)\ |:)\ ::wave::

Offline Jean Loup

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Re: Hudson river...mmm...ditching?
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2009, 03:37:36 AM »
heard a small clip on the 10pm BBC radio 2 news i think they found the engines still attached to the pylons.
Good ears, Oddball, good ears. So the pins are either a Boeing design only  ::thinking:: or they did not work on watter, because they are designed to strike hard ground.


So far, the plane structure is fairly intact! |:)\ ::wave::

Offline Jean Loup

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Re: Hudson river...mmm...ditching?
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2009, 04:09:28 AM »
...It is unfortunate that the cabin crew who helped the panicked passengers get safely out are unrecognized.
The crew did a great job.
On this video, FINALLY they give credit to the crew. Seems like the stewardess tried to stop a passenger from opening the rear door  ::thinking:: but was unable to stop that person. Then the rear of the plane started flooding, and she noticed both her legs were hurt...that person opening the door (very BAD move!  ::knockedout:: ) must have paniqued!  ::whistle::


US Airways jet lifted from Hudson River
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/us-airways-jet-lifted-from-hudson-river/4100746535

The black box and comunications recordings are retrieved, sent to Washington. ::wave::

PS- strange, the tail cone is missing... ??? ::wave::
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 04:16:26 AM by donYan »

Offline Baradium

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Re: Hudson river...mmm...ditching?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2009, 08:10:36 AM »
heard a small clip on the 10pm BBC radio 2 news i think they found the engines still attached to the pylons.
Good ears, Oddball, good ears. So the pins are either a Boeing design only  ::thinking:: or they did not work on watter, because they are designed to strike hard ground.


So far, the plane structure is fairly intact! |:)\ ::wave::

One engine is attached, the other is missing.

They have been searching for one engine this whole time and still are.
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
  -Johnny Cash "I won't back Down"

Offline Liberte

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Re: Hudson river ditching
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2009, 08:35:17 AM »
BBC has a small piece that the ditched aircraft had a compressor stall in one of the engines two days before this accident.

They'll interview that crew.  No other info was in the article.




Offline Jean Loup

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Re: Hudson river ditching
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2009, 02:32:55 PM »
BBC has a small piece that the ditched aircraft had a compressor stall in one of the engines two days before this accident.
They'll interview that crew.  No other info was in the article.
Hello Liberte:
 ::type:: on this link from , Black box indicates flock of birds brought down Hudson River plane, they say,

"The voice recording shows that "about 90 seconds after take-off the captain remarks about birds," Kitty Higgins, from the National Transport Safety Board (NTSB), told a news conference.
"One second later the cockpit voice recorder recorded the sound of thumps and rapid decrease of engine sounds. The captain acknowledges that both engines have lost power and he takes control of the aircraft,"
Higgins said.
"The other black box, which records flight data, also indicates that both engines lost power simultaneously in Thursday's drama."


this article also states:

"The plane, which is mostly intact, but badly damaged along the underside, was to be taken by barge from New York to a site in New Jersey.
A police team on Saturday said it believed it had found the location of an engine torn off in the crash and lost in the Hudson."


Then they praise the crew, ::bow:: the rescue, ::bow:: the salvage team... ::bow::

 |:)\ Well done Sully, extremely well done: Lucky Sully should be your new nickname...lady Luck protects the daring! |:)\

PS-  ::whistle:: Nobody praises Airbus A320 designers & manufacturers...tough bird! |:)\ ::wave::
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 02:18:54 AM by donYan »

Offline Ragwing

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Re: Hudson river ditching
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2009, 05:04:44 AM »
FLASH REPORT
TSA released a report on what brought down Flight 1549 and asks Congress for more funding

 ::rofl:: ::rofl:: ::wave::

Offline Mike

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Re: Hudson river ditching
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2009, 10:53:10 AM »
this is really sad . . .  :(
Dear IRS: Please cancel my subscription.

Offline Jean Loup

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Re: Hudson river ditching
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2009, 02:55:19 PM »
FLASH REPORT
TSA released a report on what brought down Flight 1549 and asks Congress for more funding

 ::rofl:: ::rofl:: ::wave::
::thinking:: mmm...Goosama or Goosaba ???

Offline Oddball

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Re: Hudson river ditching
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2009, 03:03:09 PM »
This reminds me of a Farside cartoon....need to find it now  ::thinking::
"You can teach monkeys to fly better than that!"and "spring chicken to sh**e hawk in one easy lesson"

Offline Skygal

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Re: Hudson river ditching
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2009, 03:17:47 PM »
RE: pilot skills----we used to refer to incidents like this by saying "pilot had his S**T together"  |:)\ |:)\

Offline Jean Loup

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Re: Hudson river ditching
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2009, 04:20:13 PM »
this is really sad . . .  :(

In memory os Selma Lagerloff, Nils Olgerson and the missing geese, mourning relatives have sent to us some geese angels with wings: ::thinking:: maybe Mike can perform the transplant to our grounded chicken angel... ::angel::
 ::wave::