Author Topic: ILS  (Read 25825 times)

Offline Ted_Stryker

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Re: ILS
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2006, 07:41:07 PM »
IGS isn't in the AIM Glossary, so I agree that it appears that the term itself has been obsoleted and removed for use in the US.

I'd like to note that we have instrument approaches that don't get you below 2,000 ft AGL.  ;)

Aantuvuk pass gets you to 3953' AGL on the NDB and the GPS gets you to 3353' AGL... and those are the only approaches.  As "circling" approaches with a 30 degree angle from one of the runways (same one for both), there are no runway numbers for the approaches. 

The airport is in the bottom of a pass (think a canyon).  Airport elevation 2107, terrain within a mile is almost 6,000!

Since you can fly up the canyon at 500 ft AGL, VFR traffic can get in under MUCH lower weather than IFR in this airport!  It's one of those places where you go somewhere else and fly VFR the rest of the way if the weather is *low*.

We don't go to that airport much, but my one room mate who flies a part 135 1900 gets to regularly.  Says it's pretty fun to be flying up the pass at low level at 200 kts.  ;)

Hmm.... where is it that you are from, Ryan?  I'm just curious how they handle the minimums for those approaches that leave one so high AGL.   As you may have noted from the MO6 VOR-A I put up, they don't designate a runway number on it either. 

Sounds like fun to dust off at such low levels :)  At least you don't have to worry about telephone or power lines in the canyon!   ;D
We're going to have to come in pretty low!  It's just one of those things you have to do... when you land!  -- Ted Striker - Airplane!

Offline Baradium

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Re: ILS
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2006, 07:56:50 PM »

Hmm.... where is it that you are from, Ryan?  I'm just curious how they handle the minimums for those approaches that leave one so high AGL.   As you may have noted from the MO6 VOR-A I put up, they don't designate a runway number on it either. 

Sounds like fun to dust off at such low levels :)  At least you don't have to worry about telephone or power lines in the canyon!   ;D

I'm from Georgia (USA) but I'm in Alaska now...  The reason the minimums are so high above the ground is that you have terrain only 200 ft below that elevation within a half mile each side of you!   So really it's like the airport is in a deep hole and so the approach can't get you down inside the hole, only overtop of it.

I noticed that with the VOR, thought it was weird until I realized all the circling approaches never have them.  ;)

Low level stuff is fun, although I'm still getting used to how things are done up here.  We are legal for stuff that I never would have dreamed of in the lower 48.   ;)

-Ryan
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
  -Johnny Cash "I won't back Down"

Offline Ted_Stryker

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Re: ILS
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2006, 08:12:23 PM »

Hmm.... where is it that you are from, Ryan?  I'm just curious how they handle the minimums for those approaches that leave one so high AGL.   As you may have noted from the MO6 VOR-A I put up, they don't designate a runway number on it either. 

Sounds like fun to dust off at such low levels :)  At least you don't have to worry about telephone or power lines in the canyon!   ;D

I'm from Georgia (USA) but I'm in Alaska now...  The reason the minimums are so high above the ground is that you have terrain only 200 ft below that elevation within a half mile each side of you!   So really it's like the airport is in a deep hole and so the approach can't get you down inside the hole, only overtop of it.

I noticed that with the VOR, thought it was weird until I realized all the circling approaches never have them.  ;)

Low level stuff is fun, although I'm still getting used to how things are done up here.  We are legal for stuff that I never would have dreamed of in the lower 48.   ;)

-Ryan

Ah, okay... now I understand :) 

Sounds like you get to have quite a bit of IMC flying time around there :)

Must be really cool flying around with the Aurora Borealis aglow too :)
We're going to have to come in pretty low!  It's just one of those things you have to do... when you land!  -- Ted Striker - Airplane!

Offline Baradium

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Re: ILS
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2006, 08:21:47 PM »

Hmm.... where is it that you are from, Ryan?  I'm just curious how they handle the minimums for those approaches that leave one so high AGL.   As you may have noted from the MO6 VOR-A I put up, they don't designate a runway number on it either. 

Sounds like fun to dust off at such low levels :)  At least you don't have to worry about telephone or power lines in the canyon!   ;D

I'm from Georgia (USA) but I'm in Alaska now...  The reason the minimums are so high above the ground is that you have terrain only 200 ft below that elevation within a half mile each side of you!   So really it's like the airport is in a deep hole and so the approach can't get you down inside the hole, only overtop of it.

I noticed that with the VOR, thought it was weird until I realized all the circling approaches never have them.  ;)

Low level stuff is fun, although I'm still getting used to how things are done up here.  We are legal for stuff that I never would have dreamed of in the lower 48.   ;)

-Ryan

Ah, okay... now I understand :) 

Sounds like you get to have quite a bit of IMC flying time around there :)

Must be really cool flying around with the Aurora Borealis aglow too :)


I get a fair amount of IMC.  Usually it's an hour or so each day.  But that adds up fairly quickly when it's 5 or 6 days a week.  ;)

Havn't seen the lights yet since it hasn't been dark... but I'm looking forward to the winter for that very reason!
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
  -Johnny Cash "I won't back Down"

Offline Ted_Stryker

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Re: ILS
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2006, 08:25:43 PM »

Hmm.... where is it that you are from, Ryan?  I'm just curious how they handle the minimums for those approaches that leave one so high AGL.   As you may have noted from the MO6 VOR-A I put up, they don't designate a runway number on it either. 

Sounds like fun to dust off at such low levels :)  At least you don't have to worry about telephone or power lines in the canyon!   ;D

I'm from Georgia (USA) but I'm in Alaska now...  The reason the minimums are so high above the ground is that you have terrain only 200 ft below that elevation within a half mile each side of you!   So really it's like the airport is in a deep hole and so the approach can't get you down inside the hole, only overtop of it.

I noticed that with the VOR, thought it was weird until I realized all the circling approaches never have them.  ;)

Low level stuff is fun, although I'm still getting used to how things are done up here.  We are legal for stuff that I never would have dreamed of in the lower 48.   ;)

-Ryan

Ah, okay... now I understand :) 

Sounds like you get to have quite a bit of IMC flying time around there :)

Must be really cool flying around with the Aurora Borealis aglow too :)


I get a fair amount of IMC.  Usually it's an hour or so each day.  But that adds up fairly quickly when it's 5 or 6 days a week.  ;)

Havn't seen the lights yet since it hasn't been dark... but I'm looking forward to the winter for that very reason!

At least you don't have IFR Currency concerns :)   Remember to post us some photos when you can with the Aurora when the time comes :)  Love to see it :)

We're going to have to come in pretty low!  It's just one of those things you have to do... when you land!  -- Ted Striker - Airplane!

Offline Baradium

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Re: ILS
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2006, 08:30:49 PM »
At least you don't have IFR Currency concerns :)   Remember to post us some photos when you can with the Aurora when the time comes :)  Love to see it :)

121 is wierd in currency anyway.  I'm not PIC so I don't have to be, but the PIC gets 121 checkouts every 6 months anyway so they are always IFR current even if they don't actually go through a cloud.  Of course, we don't have to worry about that part, we get plenty of actual...

I'll definately try to get a picture, I'm hoping to get some good ones (although I've been told it's hard to get a good photo of the Aurora).
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
  -Johnny Cash "I won't back Down"

Offline happylanding

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Re: ILS
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2006, 09:39:59 PM »
THANKS Mates for all the info!  :)
I could find a map of Lugano airport, the IFR one under this address: maybe it means something to you. you do not have to take tu qualification though, but if you ever decide to, here is the link:
http://www.lugano-qualification.ch/
 ;) ;) ;)
I give that landing a 9 . . . on the Richter scale.

Offline Baradium

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Re: ILS
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2006, 09:55:05 PM »
THANKS Mates for all the info!  :)
I could find a map of Lugano airport, the IFR one under this address: maybe it means something to you. you do not have to take tu qualification though, but if you ever decide to, here is the link:
http://www.lugano-qualification.ch/
 ;) ;) ;)

Side note:  every time you say "mates" I think "Australia!"

Any hints on where it is?  I'm searching now...
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
  -Johnny Cash "I won't back Down"

Offline happylanding

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Re: ILS
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2006, 06:21:58 AM »
Side note:  every time you say "mates" I think "Australia!"

Hehe! made on purpose, so that you do not think about the freezing temperatures out of where you live!!!!! :)  ;D
Just kidding!

Any hints on where it is?  I'm searching now...
Since I was told it's used to align to the center line on final 01 it should be somewhere around it........ ??? ::)
I give that landing a 9 . . . on the Richter scale.

Offline tundra_flier

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Re: ILS
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2006, 10:22:20 PM »
Quote
We use King/Bendix  KLN-90Bs in the 1900s, they are a popular unit because they are so capable yet not very expensive (relatively speaking).  Is that $10,000 price tag for a KLN-90B or a pricier unit?

That was for a Garmin GNS420 I believe, and $10k was installed cost including all antennas, cables etc.  It's an all-in-one package with IFR GPS, Comm, VOR/LOC and glideslope.  Figured that was my best option since I can't get parts for my old KX-170B anymore.  So the next time it breaks it's done.  :(  Which is a shame be cause it's been a great radio.  Excellent range and clarity on both Comm and the VOR.

Phil

Offline Ted_Stryker

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Re: ILS
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2006, 10:54:19 PM »
Quote
We use King/Bendix  KLN-90Bs in the 1900s, they are a popular unit because they are so capable yet not very expensive (relatively speaking).  Is that $10,000 price tag for a KLN-90B or a pricier unit?

That was for a Garmin GNS420 I believe, and $10k was installed cost including all antennas, cables etc.  It's an all-in-one package with IFR GPS, Comm, VOR/LOC and glideslope.  Figured that was my best option since I can't get parts for my old KX-170B anymore.  So the next time it breaks it's done.  :(  Which is a shame be cause it's been a great radio.  Excellent range and clarity on both Comm and the VOR.

Phil

Speaking of radio gear....  for Instrument Flying, and conventional VFR work for that matter, I carry a handheld and can hook it up to the external antennae via a BNC connector.  Lots of people use ICOM brand, though I have found that I have more "bang for the buck" via my Sporty's SP-200, which gives me Comm and nav with VOR CDI "needle" capacity too.  I haven't had to use it in flight yet, thank goodness, but it's nice to know it's there.

Just another two-cents worth I thought I'd toss in :D
We're going to have to come in pretty low!  It's just one of those things you have to do... when you land!  -- Ted Striker - Airplane!

Offline Baradium

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Re: ILS
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2006, 01:44:55 AM »
What about a Garmin 430 if you're already to a 420.... 430 adds a nav built in...

Of course, in any case, always back stuff up!  I had a 430 lock up on my before during my commercial training, was shooting a VOR approach and the needle was centered, had the other radio tuned in and saw them start to deviate.  Everything seemed fine from a radio standpoint on the garmin.  You could change frequencies and ID the station etc, but we realized it was partially locked up when messing with it... weird failure mode.   

It's always good to back stuff up anyway though.


Something else:  an HSI in place of the DG and an RMI for the ADF indicator is a wonderful addition.  We have an HSI and RMI on each side, they are incredibly useful.  RMIs have dual needles so you can have two VORs or a VOR and NDB or two NDBs tuned in (we have a few planes with dual ADFs)  and see relative bearings at once.  The HSI can really help your situational awareness as well, makes it incredibly to see what your intercept course is to a radial or ILS and you can do back course localizer without having to worry about reverse sensing.


As far as IGS approaches go:
I said it in chat, but forgot to here, I did find an IGS into Lugano.  There may be more than one but that one was an ILS with an 8.1 degree glideslope!  It also had some pretty stringent climb gradiants to be able to go missed.  I kind of don't have the link now though because I shut down the computer since then (oops).

So apparently the "IGS" approach is alive internationally, and seems to indicate an approach which has large deviations from standard and special requirements (IE larger than normal decent rates or large angle from approach course to the airport), but I still don't have an official definition of what IGS stands for and what makes an approach an IGS.  Both IGS approaches found thus far were ILS based approaches.
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
  -Johnny Cash "I won't back Down"

Offline tundra_flier

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Re: ILS
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2006, 03:25:24 AM »
Well, Baradium.  The list of avionics there is is worth about 3 times what my plane is.  And wouldn't all fit in the Panel ;) 

Maybe it was the 430 I was looking at, it did have a full NAV/Comm set up.

Phil

Offline Baradium

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Re: ILS
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2006, 04:03:45 AM »
Well, Baradium.  The list of avionics there is is worth about 3 times what my plane is.  And wouldn't all fit in the Panel ;) 

Maybe it was the 430 I was looking at, it did have a full NAV/Comm set up.

Phil

The HSI goes where your DG is, which you need for IFR anyway.  ;)     But yeah, that's why most airplanes don't have those...

BTW, saw a cow moose on the way home from the airport today (about a half mile to a mile from the airport heading towards Eielson).  She was sitting about 10 feet off the highway munching on grass next to a highway sign.   
« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 04:12:32 AM by Baradium »
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
  -Johnny Cash "I won't back Down"

Offline tundra_flier

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Re: ILS
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2006, 10:58:00 PM »
My handheld GPS (Garmin Pilot III) has an HSI display that I love.  All the nav info I need right there.

Phil