Helicopter Questions

[Mike]

So why all the hating on R-22s?  I keep reading people saying they're squirrelly, and that they're essentially death traps with no margin for forgiveness, yada yada yada... I also hear that the DA-20 will shatter on an emergency landing and you can kiss your butt goodbye, but I've not seen any evidence to back it up.  With the R-22s, I also see SFAR 73 and guess people also use that in their vilification of the bird... but why?

I'm asking all of this because I plan on starting my training and the place where I'll be training (MG Aviation, KGMU South Ramp, Greenville, SC) uses R-22s.  Thanks

The early Rs were unforgiving and had some design or mfg challenges. 

I was on the scene not long after a fatal in which an R pilot was shuttling his helo home from the plant/training center in SoCal and the thing came apart over Santa Ana.  It seemed that there were still little bits of composite drifting down from the sky when the company president was in front of the TV cameras, pronouncing that the pilot had "tried to go too far too soon" -- he had about 25 hours in that particular helo, I don't remember how many in rotors, 70 or 80 IIRC, and a lot of fixed-wing time.

Whether he was or was not competent in the type, the reflexive "It-can't-be-our-product" response significantly cut my trust in RR, and eliminated any chance that I would be transitioning into them.

They have a decent reputation these days, but there are a lot of really good helo designs out there, so I never saw any need to reconsider the issue.   

True, but you seem to be a high time pilot. Keep that in mind.
I can pretty much get in any helicopter on any certificate right now and on one occasion it even helped the owner lower his insurance because of all my experience.
But put yourself in the shoes of one of our young guys in the forum here. They are the most sold and usually cheapest helicopter out there....
They DO have to consider the issue.
Why talk a young guy out of a helicopter you have never even flown yourself? 

( I have seen other helicopters crash too. What about things like the tailrotor issue on the Bells, hydraulics on the AStar, T/R AD on the 500C, and so on....)

[Gulfstream Driver]

The early Rs were unforgiving and had some design or mfg challenges.

I was on the scene not long after a fatal in which an R pilot was shuttling his helo home from the plant/training center in SoCal and the thing came apart over Santa Ana. It seemed that there were still little bits of composite drifting down from the sky when the company president was in front of the TV cameras, pronouncing that the pilot had "tried to go too far too soon" -- he had about 25 hours in that particular helo, I don't remember how many in rotors, 70 or 80 IIRC, and a lot of fixed-wing time.

Whether he was or was not competent in the type, the reflexive "It-can't-be-our-product" response significantly cut my trust in RR, and eliminated any chance that I would be transitioning into them.

They have a decent reputation these days, but there are a lot of really good helo designs out there, so I never saw any need to reconsider the issue.

Would you say the same thing about Cirrus?  New airplanes have issues.  Cirrus had an aileron flaw, if I remember right, but it's been resolved.  A lot of the time pilots fly in conditions they shouldn't. Cirrus, and to a smaller extent Lance, are awesome airplanes that are just affordable enough that any idiot can get in and go. 

Now, Cirrus isn't totally blameless.  They're forcing instructors to sign off on buyers at 10 hours whether they're ready or not.  But, these airplanes are crashing after going VFR into IMC.  That's a PIC decision, not the manufacturers.

[Roland]

I stated it in this somewhere forum before. Frank Robinson intended to create a helicopter for experienced pilots to fly on their private purposes. It was not intended to create a training helicopter.

But the helo is cheap in purchase and operation. So many, many schools took up this type. They got many students and made some money (still make). Fatal accidents, however they occurred, lead to safety regulations.

I’ve learned my helicopter skills on the Bell 206 Jet Ranger. That is my type of measurement. As I got involved into Robinson helicopters I saw that there are other limits possible. Officials decided that this limits are save. So my understanding of safety, reserves, limits, is a private one.

I can only repeat myself again: it depends on the people flying the machine. The decisions made in any situation. It is the man, who flies, not the machine. The machine is the tool only. And it depends on how this tool is used.

To me it is important that young students get the best possible training to know about the possibilities of this tool, the range of decisions possible, how to apply them (and stand for it!) and finally to survive the flying.

[wbarnhill]

I guess now I'm kinda iffy on the whole Robinson thing... but I'll try one of their demo flights and see how things go....... 

[Frank N. O.]

Yes, I think you should try it also before passing final judgement, and with a good instructor that you can work with. I can't comment on an aircraft but a Peugeot 206 is for me a bad car, soft unprecise brakes, rough engine idle, horrible knotchy gearlinkage and that compared to a old Ford Escort but other people will probably have the exact opposite opinion, maybe partly because I had a good Escort and a Mondey-Peugeot and they didn't but still.
So try to get some facts and then make the final judgement be based on your own actual try-out. Good luck and best wishes 

Frank

[Mike]

I guess now I'm kinda iffy on the whole Robinson thing... but I'll try one of their demo flights and see how things go....... 

See, this is exactly what I was trying to avoid. Go on a demo flight and just check it out. All my pilots have flown between 500 and 2000(!) hours in the Robinson at one time or another before their careers got them into bigger machines and they all had been fine.

The fact, that you're not a doctor or lawyer and take this thing seriously enough to log in and ask questions tells me that you will be fine as well.
You might not have the option of starting in a Bell 206 like some of us so just go for it.
In the 4 years I was teaching I have seen 2 Robinsons crash and 2 Schweizers and in all 4 crashes nobody got hurt.
Why do you think the Bell 206 has a better safety record? It's because it isn't flown by beginners in general (for ours you would have to have 1000hrs minimum to be even considered for the insurance....)

[Roland]

Mike is right. My chatting didn’t help you ether, did it? Sorry please. 

Please make your own picture, take a ride with the Robie. You will enjoy the magnificent view out of this helo. You will see thing go perfectly and you will forget about all the writing  of us “experts” here.

[fireflyr]

AAAARGH!!!!  You fling wing drivers---If God had meant for wings to rotate, He would have put axles in the middle of a Cessna ! 

[Frank N. O.]

AAAARGH!!!!  You fling wing drivers---If God had meant for wings to rotate, He would have put axles in the middle of a Cessna ! 

I can't wait to see your reaction to this: God did! http://1000aircraftphotos.com/PRPhotos/CessnaCH-1.jpg 

Frank

[Mike]

Good one Frank!

God DID want the wings to rotate...

[Gulfstream Driver]

Everything I've ever known and believed to be true...gone...     How can a world exist where Cessna wings whirl around above the fuselage? 

[Frank N. O.]

Good one Frank!

God DID want the wings to rotate...

It was an inspired moment Actually I did read that Cessna had bought a small helicopter company before that was made so I don't know much of it was a Cessna, you know like a MD500 is/was actually a Hughes, Sud Aviation to Aerospatiale to Eurocopter and not to forgot, Daweoo now called Chevrolet in Europe.

Frank

P.S. Mike did you forget about the PM or are you just busy?

[fireflyr]

AAAARGH!!!!  You fling wing drivers---If God had meant for wings to rotate, He would have put axles in the middle of a Cessna ! 

I can't wait to see your reaction to this: God did! http://1000aircraftphotos.com/PRPhotos/CessnaCH-1.jpg

Frank

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH !!!
OMIGOD---SUCH HERESY, I am sooooooooo disapointed that I could have forgotten that Cessna did venture to the dark side at some point!!!!
Frank, I almost spit wine on my keyboard when I read your post-----you got me to the max !! 

[Frank N. O.]

ROFL, sorry about the wine but glad you took it with the good sense of humour I expected   

Frank

[Firegirl]

So, does anybody know why the rotors on a Bell turn one way and the ones on the french helicopters turn the other?
Is this a stupid question?

And, which way did the rotors on the Cessna helo turn?