Author Topic: Helicopter Questions  (Read 81269 times)

Offline Roland

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Re: Helicopter Questions
« Reply #105 on: May 08, 2006, 12:48:53 PM »
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( I have seen other helicopters crash too. What about things like the tailrotor issue on the Bells, hydraulics on the AStar, T/R AD on the 500C, and so on....)

You missed my point.  My major problem is the official stance of the company, that the pilot was automatically the failure point, not the helo.
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If it comes down to that point you can forget all manufacturers!!!

I’ve seen and experienced situations, where manufacturers will do everything within their might to avoid confession that the failure or the problem is on their side. I don’t wand to go to deep into this, because this is no fun at all and has nothing to do in this forum. But if there is money, reputation and might involved things become ugly.
If helicopter flying would be difficult, engineers would do it.

Offline Frank N. O.

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Re: Helicopter Questions
« Reply #106 on: May 08, 2006, 06:38:15 PM »
Ah, if the helicopter checklist is copyrighted etc. then I'll try it the other way around, I'll post the expanded JetRanger checklist from the FS2004 add-on and ask just how much is missing.

I have a downloaded pdf POH etc. for both a 74 Reims Cardinal RG and most versions of the Single-engine Aero Commander respectively from the flying club I flew with and the Commander Aircraft owners club.

Frank
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Offline Mike

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Re: Helicopter Questions
« Reply #107 on: May 08, 2006, 11:47:00 PM »
Hmmm, I don't think they have a true "copyright" on the manual so to speak. The First 4 sections get submitted to the FAA and approved by them and that should be pretty public....

Show us what you have and we will add on to it I guess...
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Offline Ted_Stryker

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Re: Helicopter Questions
« Reply #108 on: May 09, 2006, 02:49:51 PM »
Just to add my two cents in... Beechcraft had similar issues with the V-Tail Bonanza when it came out.  The P.O.H. had bad numbers published for the Vne speed, and as a result, a lot of them went down.  That's how it got the moniker "Doctor Killer" (the plane was expensive, so only doctors could afford it back then... or so it was said).

It took a long time before the numbers were magically updated in the P.O.H. a very, very, long time later.  Beechcraft didn't admit fault, but clearly there were issues and the FAA eventually mandated mod kits to bring up the tail's structural strength, or forced placarding of the plane to keep people safe.

Fear of litigation drives a lot in aviation... unfortunately.  Though the Bonanza was safe so long as you stayed under the lower Vne speed or had the mod kit, or even a T tail conversion put on.  I think the R-22 is safe so long as one keeps up on the maintenance, and knows about the week spots to keep an extra eye on.  The way the FAA is today, they'd likely have an AD out forcing either their grounding, or immediate repair if they thought there were major issues.
We're going to have to come in pretty low!  It's just one of those things you have to do... when you land!  -- Ted Striker - Airplane!

Offline wbarnhill

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Re: Helicopter Questions
« Reply #109 on: May 09, 2006, 05:24:18 PM »
Thanks to everyone's posts.  I'm not scared off of the R-22 (Can't help it... the spinning blades have me hypnotized.)  I'm just going to be extra wary when I start training.  Still hoping to get that demo flight in a week or so.

Offline SkyKing

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Re: Helicopter Questions
« Reply #110 on: May 12, 2006, 02:23:59 AM »
Just to add my two cents in... Beechcraft had similar issues with the V-Tail Bonanza when it came out.  The P.O.H. had bad numbers published for the Vne speed, and as a result, a lot of them went down.  That's how it got the moniker "Doctor Killer" (the plane was expensive, so only doctors could afford it back then... or so it was said).


Actually, the Bonanza became known as the Fork-Tailled Doctor Killer for an entirely different reason.

After World War Twice, a couple of dozen airplane companies were firmly convinced that the world of the 1950s and 1960s would be one in which the light plane took the place of the family car.  Beech say themselves as the builders of the flying Cadillac, and they marketed the Bonanza as such.

The people who bought them were largely professionals, including (of course) doctors.  The problem is that most professionals have little time for proficiency flying (and they are convinced that they're smarter than the average person, thus they don't NEED to fly to keep up their skills!). 

Put a smug, self-confident, rusty and semi-skilled pilot into a high-performance plane which has been sitting for a few months, then add a passenger or two, and you have the recipe for a newspaper headline.  This is how, back in the late 1960s and early 1970s, Group 15 of the California CAP Wing got more searches than a lot of whole WINGS got.

There were just so many searches for doctors, lawyers and so on, who had taken off in Bonanzas, that we all began to assume that a Saturday SAR warning would be for someone with MD, DDS or whatever after his name.


fireflyr

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Re: Helicopter Questions
« Reply #111 on: May 18, 2006, 02:05:55 AM »
Hey SkyKing---ever flown a Tierra T-bird??? Just curious to know what you think about what speed to use when rolling one.

Offline Frank N. O.

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Re: Helicopter Questions
« Reply #112 on: May 21, 2006, 10:09:53 PM »
Ah I completely forgot about the checklist, here it is, directly from the add-on.

Frank
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."
— Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Mike

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Re: Helicopter Questions
« Reply #113 on: May 22, 2006, 02:31:06 AM »
Ok, I didn't look at all of it (time crunch, I'll get to it later, I promise) but the start procedure stuck out as COMPLETELY OFF and NOT MAKING SENSE AT ALL....
N2 stabilized at 12-14%    ???  ???  ???  :P  ::)
I'll see what I have for you, ok?!
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Offline Roland

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Re: Helicopter Questions
« Reply #114 on: May 22, 2006, 06:02:46 AM »
Yeah, well, its kinda simplified. In the “START” sequence it should read N1 (gas generator speed). And if you open the throttle at 12-14% on a real Jet Ranger (Allison engine) you can check your bank account if there is enough money left to buy a new turbine section.  :oI’ve seen this far too many times. So it should read “IDLE”. And you know there is no “HUD” on a real Jet Ranger but in the computer game. On a real Jet Ranger you WILL stay below 130 kts. :P In the “SHUT-DOWN” sequence again it should read N1.

All in all this check list fits to a computer game. The real one reads a little different (there is no escape-key if something goes wrong). I’m sure Mike gets you one. ;)
If helicopter flying would be difficult, engineers would do it.

Offline Mike

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Re: Helicopter Questions
« Reply #115 on: May 24, 2006, 12:51:59 AM »
Here is the starting sequence for the Jet Ranger.
Right out of the manual ( I am bored waiting for a bank-run I have to fly tonight....)



ENGINE STARTING

Collective pitch  -  Full down.

Throttle  -  Full closed

Rotors  -  Clear.

Starter  -  Engage (observe Eingine Starter Limitations, Section 1).

Engine oil pressure  -  Indication of increase.

Throttle  -  Open to flight idle at 15% gas producer RPM
with Turbine Outlet Temperature (TOT) at or below 150C.

            CAUTION
A START SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED
AT N1 SPEEDS BELOW 12%


(*** I am skipping an explanation here about
different N1's versus OAT and max TOT limits)


           CAUTION
IF THE MAIN ROTOR IS NOT ROTATING BY 25%
GAS PRODUCER SPEED (N1), ABORT THE START.

Starter  -  Release at 58% gas producer RPM (N1).

Engine and transmission oil  -  Check pressures increasing.


(*** skipping more stuff here not pertinent to the sim)

Gas Producer ROM (N1)  -  Check for 60 to 62%.

External power  -  Disconnect; BAT On.

Throttle  -  Open to 70% gas producer RPM.

GEN switch  -  On.

Radio Equipment  -  On.

*** and then it goes into the hydraulics check which you might not do on the sim either....



BEFORE TAKEOFF

Electrical equipment  -  Check; reset as required.

Lighting  -  As desired.

INST LT switch (rheostat)  -  As desired.

Radio  -  Check as required.

Throttle  -  Full open.

Power and flight instruments  -  Normal operating range.

Generator load  -  Below 70% (Note - normal load is 10%-20%).

Power turbine N2  -  Set for 100% in flat pitch

and off you go! tada ;D
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Offline Mike

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Re: Helicopter Questions
« Reply #116 on: May 24, 2006, 10:35:33 PM »
Ok, I have removed the argument because it's dragging down the funny...

SkyKing and I are working this out per email rather than in public.

I hope nobody got offended or "turned off" from the forum because of this.
If so, I apologize. Write me a message with your thoughts.

@Frank:
Were you able to make something out of that checklist?
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Offline Mike

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Re: Helicopter Questions
« Reply #117 on: May 24, 2006, 10:40:08 PM »
Oh, and about the copyright issue. SkyKing is right. I was not clear on my statement.
But since I am neither selling the checklist to Frank nor putting my name on it claiming it's my info, there is no infringement. If anything it will help Bell ...
We treat similar cases the same way. So far we have been pretty lucky (well we are also very well protected, especially our name) but I guess SkyKing had some problems in the past. He (just like us and Ted Stryker) is a published author as well.
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Offline Frank N. O.

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Re: Helicopter Questions
« Reply #118 on: May 25, 2006, 01:59:30 AM »
Uhm, what did I miss? If there is anything wrong then by all means don't post anything, and I hope anything I said wasn't misunderstood as asking for anything illegal.
I've had some very bad days so I'm not so clear as what has been going on here so sorry for not being that active at the moment.

In any case what I could see was that MSFS is not much good for learning to operate a helicopter, especially not since a helicopter is very much a seat-of-the-pants vehicle and that's where any sim fails.
EDIT: I haven't posted a while since I've been under a lot of pressure with problems that I can't fix. For those that read the post last night I'm sorry if my post sounded a bit frantic (in lack of a a better word) I just wanted reply to Mike's post now he asked for it but I guess I didn't need to give that many details to describe that it was bad. I really need a vacation and get all those worries off my back, but when my mom can't get a nice quiet home without stairs and near grocery-stores then it's not easy and when I'm the last of the friends and family that's anywhere near us.

Thanks for the PM Gulfstream.

Frank
« Last Edit: May 25, 2006, 10:44:39 AM by Frank N. O. »
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."
— Leonardo da Vinci

fireflyr

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Re: Helicopter Questions
« Reply #119 on: May 25, 2006, 10:12:41 PM »
Relax, Frank, you're among friends.   We all get tied up with our problems at times and sometimes we just need to vent, that's OK.
There's no need apologize and no need to worry, if there is one thing I've learned in 65 years of living it's that worries and problems are transitory and that focusing on the positive aspects of your life is the best solution till things work themselves out.  Stay cool. 8)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2006, 10:14:42 PM by fireflyr »