Author Topic: Chinese Sub "pops up" in the middle of a carrier battle group  (Read 5067 times)

Offline Baradium

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1607
Chinese Sub "pops up" in the middle of a carrier battle group
« on: November 11, 2007, 10:34:07 PM »
This is not a good thing.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=492804&in_page_id=1811

Quote
The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
By MATTHEW HICKLEY - More by this author »
 
Last updated at 00:13am on 10th November 2007


When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.

At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.


That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.


American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.


By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.


According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.


The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.


One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.


The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.


And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.


According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.


It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.


Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard".


The People's Liberation Army Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching vessels.


Its 13 Song Class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors.


Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War.


He said: "It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans.


"It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan."

In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time.

"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
  -Johnny Cash "I won't back Down"

Offline spacer

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
Re: Chinese Sub "pops up" in the middle of a carrier battle group
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2007, 01:09:37 AM »
Heck... they should have watched "Down Periscope" with Kelsey Grammar.

That's kinda unsettling. While I'm not a big fan of US military adventurism, Kitty Hawk was my little brother's ship before he settled into recruiting.
This kinda brings it close to home, how a bunch of fat cats with nice desks and willing young interns can snuff out young lives with no more effort
than they'd order coffee from Starbucks. Well... actually less effort. I hear Starbucks can be a pain when they're busy.

Offline Rooster Cruiser

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2005
  • Retired Chicken Hauler
Re: Chinese Sub "pops up" in the middle of a carrier battle group
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2007, 01:13:38 AM »
What I found annoying when this happened was the US Navy's official response from the Pentagon.  They said that the sub went undetected because they were not conducting anti-submarine excersizes on that day.  What Horsedump!!! ::eek:: ::unbelieveable:: ::complaining: ::banghead::

When a carrier battle group puts to sea, it operates on an at-war footing as soon as the first escort ships leave the port.  ASW begins immediately, and operates continously until the group returns to port.  At least this is the way the Navy operated during the Cold War when I was on an escort ship.  If the Pentagon statement is true, it means the world's mightiest Navy has gotten way too complacent and this was a good wake up call for them to straighten up their act.  If it is not true, then the US Navy should be shaken to its core and it should reconsider its ASW tactics.  Maybe they should bring back the Viking sub-hunter planes that were retired over a decade ago.
"Me 'n Earl was haulin' chickens / On a flatbed outta Wiggins..."

Wolf Creek Pass, by CW McCall

Offline G-man

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2047
  • Cogito sumere potum alterum.
Re: Chinese Sub "pops up" in the middle of a carrier battle group
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2007, 01:38:04 AM »
First off..This happened on October 26th 2006--Yep LAST YEAR folks..

Secondly--this is NOT a surprise--it is the news getting all worked up again--trust me, just like after an aircraft accident, the average reporter will say something that "shocks" the non-flying public, but we all laugh.. Guess what is going on here. This is a common practice among naval forces. Hell, many years ago I was sent to sea as an ASW liaison for 10 days during a "NATO exercise" and a Russian submarine surfaced right next to the vessel I was on. We all waved at the crew and a bottle of whiskey was sent over to the sub captain. The Brits do it, the Americans do it, the French do it--although they ALWAYS got caught..everyone does it.

Thirdly--The scary part is that the US Navy did away with their diesel boats. A diesel boat on batteries is hard to detect, nuclear powered boats--not a problem because  they HAVE to keep the pumps running or else the reactor overheats. The Chinese boat surfaced deliberately.. no point in having the capability to sneak up on the Kitty Hawk if no-one knows you can do it. Its an ego/deterrent thing.

For those that dont know my sordid past--This is what I did in a former life:    ::unbelieveable::::whistle::::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::whistle::







Life may not be the party we hoped for---but while we're here--we might as well dance..........

Offline Baradium

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1607
Re: Chinese Sub "pops up" in the middle of a carrier battle group
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2007, 01:55:21 AM »
First off..This happened on October 26th 2006--Yep LAST YEAR folks..

Secondly--this is NOT a surprise--it is the news getting all worked up again--trust me, just like after an aircraft accident, the average reporter will say something that "shocks" the non-flying public, but we all laugh.. Guess what is going on here. This is a common practice among naval forces. Hell, many years ago I was sent to sea as an ASW liaison for 10 days during a "NATO exercise" and a Russian submarine surfaced right next to the vessel I was on. We all waved at the crew and a bottle of whiskey was sent over to the sub captain. The Brits do it, the Americans do it, the French do it--although they ALWAYS got caught..everyone does it.

Thirdly--The scary part is that the US Navy did away with their diesel boats. A diesel boat on batteries is hard to detect, nuclear powered boats--not a problem because  they HAVE to keep the pumps running or else the reactor overheats. The Chinese boat surfaced deliberately.. no point in having the capability to sneak up on the Kitty Hawk if no-one knows you can do it. Its an ego/deterrent thing.


I think the scary part is that they did *not* get caught.

That's the problem.  Not that the Chinese were trying to do it.  It's that they did it without being detected.
"Well I know what's right, I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I stand my ground, and I won't back down"
  -Johnny Cash "I won't back Down"

Offline G-man

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2047
  • Cogito sumere potum alterum.
Re: Chinese Sub "pops up" in the middle of a carrier battle group
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2007, 02:29:52 AM »

I think the scary part is that they did *not* get caught.

That's the problem.  Not that the Chinese were trying to do it.  It's that they did it without being detected.

A carrier group of that size pushes out so much noise that a sonar operator probably could not hear a depth bomb go off in the middle of it. Also the Kitty Hawk is NOT the high value unit...in reality a sub would not be in that close in a wartime situation.. or even in the "cold war". It serves NO purpose other than ego and/or a slap in the face to the US Navy. There is NO strategic value to him being in there. The diesel boats are not tasked to do that.

If you want to know the scary part.. Did the US Navy know roughly where he was? Did they know what forces were within 200nm radius? He should have been tracked from the time he left port, but now we are getting into all that "secret squirrel" stuff. Lets just say that it will never be disclosed if the US (or any other navy) was tracking him at the time. Sometimes it is a strain on resources to track a submarine that is of no real threat. I'll shut up now.
Life may not be the party we hoped for---but while we're here--we might as well dance..........

Offline Frank N. O.

  • Alpha Rooster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2446
  • Spin It!
Re: Chinese Sub "pops up" in the middle of a carrier battle group
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2007, 04:49:08 PM »
Very interesting news G-man. And I definately prefer friendly waves between colleagues instead of threats between enemies  |:)\
(I hope I wrote that correctly as intended)

Frank
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."
— Leonardo da Vinci