Roost Air Lounge => Aviation related topics => Topic started by: Gulfstream Driver on February 04, 2006, 04:23:04 AM
Title: Seneca shopping
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 04, 2006, 04:23:04 AM
I'm looking for a Seneca II. Must have a good radio stack with a Garmin 430 or better, leather interior in nice shape. Good paint, too. Anyone have a bead on something like that?
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: FlyingBlind on February 04, 2006, 12:04:16 PM
Oh we have plenty of senecas in Estonia......the worst thing i have ever seen....although good luck mate...im sure you will find one
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: Firegirl on February 04, 2006, 05:06:26 PM
Ebay? Heh heh heh, just kidding!
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: Mike on February 05, 2006, 02:15:38 AM
I'm looking for a Seneca II. Must have a good radio stack with a Garmin 430 or better, leather interior in nice shape. Good paint, too. Anyone have a bead on something like that?
;D ;D Hmmmm.... I wonder how many serious leads you'll get here in this forum. But I do love firegirls response!! Quick thinking girl!! You must be a die-hard fan of the website AND the forum...
So, why a Seneca? I have to disagree with Flying Bilnd, they are by far not the worst thing I have ever seen. (although I am not sure how planes in Estonia look like in general....)
We had two Seneca II's in our fleet when I was working for a flight-school as a mechanic. They did seem to be broken a lot... Are you planning on getting your multi ? or IFR multi or something? I'll definetly keep an eye open for them...
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: fireflyr on February 05, 2006, 04:10:38 PM
HEY!
Got about 700 hours in a Seneca II and I'm here to stick up for thar little puppy---don't shock cool the engines and they work great!!
We regularly flew ours from California to Texas and found it to be an adequare cross country performer and a good stable IFR platform.
Never really had any maintenance problems either.
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 05, 2006, 09:03:47 PM
Hey, don't knock e-bay. If you do it right, you can find a nice bird that way.
My company is shopping for a Seneca for a customer. Probably use it as a corporate bird or as a lease-back rental. We need a good, stable twin to get places a little bit quicker than a 172. :-)
The only rating I don't have is MEI. It'll be a good opportunity for that as well.
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: fireflyr on February 05, 2006, 11:57:34 PM
I myself ::)(the finest pilot I know) ::) have been looking at planes for sale and I was surprised at the diversity of A/C on Ebay.
Problem for me though is that I keep wanting to upgrade (Gee, for an extra couple thousand I can buy 30K more cruise speed---Hmmm, or 2 more seats---Hmm, or club seating AND even more speed, or another engine, or a Garmin package). The rationalizing goes on and on--------Is the old Air Force One for sale??????????????
My boss bought his Jaguar, an XJ-12, I believe, on Ebay, a spectacular buy for 8 thousnd bucks, don't know if he was just lucky or what but it's a beautiful good running car.
Can anyone out there think of some REALLY wierd places to find an airplane for sale? Something like 'Joes Screendoor Repair and Airplane Emporium' would cause me to do a double take.
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: Mike on February 06, 2006, 05:32:51 AM
Wow Jim! You must either have a lucky hand with planes or treat them really well. I remember you telling me you didn't have much trouble with Skymasters either. The Skymasters I've worked on were truly planes from hell and one of them was really bad taken care of.... The Senecas were a funny story. One of them was ok, the other was always broken although they both were the same model and year even. Maybe it was a "Monday Morning Plane"...
I think If used as a lease-back plane and to get ratings, this isn't a plane to get. But they are getting harder and harder to find. Seems like American built twins are dying out. The only new small twin I've seen lately is the Austrian Diamond (KA-44??) one. This one I like though!! Truly the wave of the future....
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: fireflyr on February 06, 2006, 10:10:40 AM
Thanks Mike, but the Seneca I flew was a low time airplane and even though I used fairly high cruise settings (32" MP & 2400RPM) I was careful about cooling the engines down---same thing with the Skymaster with the same engines.
Early on, as a pilot in light recips for Cal Air Freight (now Ameriflight), I was taught to reduce power settings at the rate of 1" MP per minute to avoid cooling the cylinders too rapidly, and that formula or it's approximation works well. I try to plan descents so that I can trade altitude for power at that rate at least until the MP gets out of the turbo--around 20" or below. Gentle cooling techniques work wonders with any recip engine and even when I'm running a turbine I still don't just yank the throttles back---(not goin'ta do it!--wouldn't be prudent!---G Bush Sr)
You are right though about the Mixmaster being a maintenence hog though, but our new maintenence director has eliminated a lot of problems in the last year just by being very thorough on the 100 HR inspections. Our former MD, a shop out of Big Bear Airport, was a really nice guy but was extremely sloppy and we were constantly breaking down in the field which was duly noted by BLM. Since we switched mechanics, we have had zero problems and I finished the season last year with a perfect availability record. One of the Skymaster's problem area is the gear, Hell, there are eleven (yes 11) hydraulic actuators in the gear system which just begs to be a pain in the butt and the rear engine on the non pressurized turbocharged ones tend to run a little hot so we I never run leaner than 100 degrees on the rich side of peak with them.
The Diamond twins you mentioned are certainly the wave of the future. The Thielert diesel equipped ones get better fuel economy than a lot of singles but it looks like single engine performance is kind of anemic with only 135 ponies per side, if they could increase that by 20 HP or so with the diesels, they'd really be a sparkling performer. Yeah, I know they also come with 180 HP Lycomings but there goes the fuel economy too.
With light jets, FADEC, avionics innovations, and new engine designs coming on line, you young pilots have a lot to look forward to and I envy you. Maybe someday when you see some old coot leaning against the airport fence, you'll come over and offer me a ride in your new 400 MPH, hydrogen powered, six seat, aerobatic single---maybe you'll let me fondle the controls for a minute---maybe you'll even forgive me for fondling your girlfriend while I climbed into the airplane!!!!!!! :-\
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 06, 2006, 04:09:24 PM
I guess I'm not sure what the Seneca would be used for. I was just told to keep an eye open for them.
When I first started flying at UND we had the Diamond DA-20 and DA-20C Katanas along with Piper Cadets. The students that chose the Katanas finished in the Cadets. Nice airplanes. Really fast. Just not good trainers. They wouldn't take the beating the Cadets would. Of course, it didn't help that Maintenance changed some of the procedures (or they were just incompetent).
My instructor at the time was up with a different student, and the plane start to shake violently. They limped back to the airport and landed. When they pulled the spinner off, there was only one bolt holding the prop on. The rest had sheared off because Maintenance over torqued them. :o
One of the Skymaster's problem area is the gear, Hell, there are eleven (yes 11) hydraulic actuators in the gear system which just begs to be a pain in the butt
11 actuators? That's like putting 13 sumps in the new Cessnas.
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: fireflyr on February 06, 2006, 04:37:17 PM
Hey Gulfstream, are you kidding about 13 sumps---a person could get Carpal Tunnel Syndrome from doing a preflight.
Yeah, between the gear and gear doors there are 11 of'em, the failure of any one could render the gear inop and just think about how the gear falls down out during extension and you'll have a picture of how ugly things could get if you had to land with the gear stuck in mid operation. Cessna lost the KISS principle prize with that design!
I love Twin Commander's design. I was doing a part 135 checkride a few years back and the FAA guy, who didn't know anything about Commanders, asked me to explain the emergency gear extension procedures. I told him you slow to 110 Knots and place the gear handle in the 'down' position-----That's all, nothing else, totally blew his mind that something could be so simple and he had to look at the emergency checklist before he would believe me. Gave me the big-time grins to win that little argument, but of course he immediately yanked an engine and changed the approach just to pay me back---the butt-head! >:(
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 06, 2006, 04:54:33 PM
I'm not kidding about the sumps. New Cessna singles have a wet wing, and a rib runs right down the middle of the tank. The insurance lawyers forced Cessna to put 5 sumps in each wing. And for whatever reason, they put 3 under the engine. I'm not sure why they did that. The checklist also wants you to drain a cup of fuel from EACH sump.
Is the gear system on the Twin Commander like the Mooney? Just a big bar that raises and lowers the gear?
Did you pass that ride or were you part of the 80% fail rate?
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: fireflyr on February 06, 2006, 05:40:56 PM
Gulfsteam,the Twin Commander gear is double sided hydraulic pressure actuated.
There is an accumulator bottle in the aft fuselage for the mains only which holds a ground pressure of about 300psi, when you retract the gear, pressure supplied by a full time pump on each engine forces the gear up and increases the pressure in the accumulator to about a thousand psi and the mains are held up by a locking mechanism. If you lose hydraulics, you slow the airplane to 110 knots, put the handle 'down' which opens the locks electrically and the gear is extended by the actuator pressure. The nose wheel is held up in the well by engine pump pressure so when you lose hydraulic pressure, it simply falls out of the well and locks. Matter of fact, the first thing you notice is slight noise and vibration so you look at the spinner, see your nosewheel is down and locked and say "CRAP".
The gear part is no sweat but the flaps, brakes, and toe steering are all hydraulic so when you do land you better be straight down a runway of adequate length cause you ain't gonna have brakes or steering. Old Commander pilots fly with the breaker pulled on the emergency pump because there is about a half cup of fluid in the lowest part of the thing and if you are faced with a lost hydraulics situation you make a good straight landing, push the breaker and make one brake application which you hold until the plane stops--if you release it early, you're screwed because there ain't no more fluid. Had it happen a couple of times and it works as advertised.
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: fireflyr on February 07, 2006, 03:28:08 PM
PASS THE RIDE????
Of course I did----I get checkrideitis like everybody else but I'm not gonna let some governent weenie scare me into submission.
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 07, 2006, 11:40:49 PM
Thanks Mike, but the Seneca I flew was a low time airplane and even though I used fairly high cruise settings (32" MP & 2400RPM) I was careful about cooling the engines down---same thing with the Skymaster with the same engines.
Early on, as a pilot in light recips for Cal Air Freight (now Ameriflight), I was taught to reduce power settings at the rate of 1" MP per minute to avoid cooling the cylinders too rapidly, and that formula or it's approximation works well. I try to plan descents so that I can trade altitude for power at that rate at least until the MP gets out of the turbo--around 20" or below. Gentle cooling techniques work wonders with any recip engine and even when I'm running a turbine I still don't just yank the throttles back---(not goin'ta do it!--wouldn't be prudent!---G Bush Sr)
I'm liking the fireflyr guy more and more... :D :D that's the way I've always ran turbo engines and have never had a problem with cracked cylinders and what not.
Since the Seneca II are turbo'd, spend alot of time looking at the maint. history and operating practices of the owner (if possible) during the pre purchase. If they are swapping cylinders every couple hundred hours or so, they aren't running the airplane right. Keep looking or be prepared to spend a little coin on the first couple annuals getting the engines in shape.
I've got a little time in Seneca's, but my money would be in a same year Aztec... More room, (though you do give up the big door in back), no turbo's, fuel injected, and those big lycomings will last for ever if taken care of. Of course, so will big Continetals, but the lyc's are more tollerant of ham fisted pilots it seems.
I've also heard the Seneca's tend to wallow about a bit in turbulence, but never saw it myself.
Good luck on your search.
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 08, 2006, 08:50:59 PM
Thanks. Just read an interesting consumer reports style article about Senecas. Apparently, the turbos run all the time, whether you need them to or not. That's why you find cracked turbo housings. Seneca I's had a problem with tail flutter, but that was supposedly fixed with an AD. The article was very confusing, saying the Seneca was one of the best light twins around, and then badmouthing the airplane in the same sentence. Basicly, it sounds like the engines are fragile, but that's not the airplane's fault. Gotta talk to Continental about that. They do have numerous upgrades and mods available that help with engine performance and speed.
Don't know much about the Aztec, but I've heard they're scary. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: Sleek-Jet on February 08, 2006, 09:09:38 PM
Thanks. Just read an interesting consumer reports style article about Senecas. Apparently, the turbos run all the time, whether you need them to or not. That's why you find cracked turbo housings. Seneca I's had a problem with tail flutter, but that was supposedly fixed with an AD. The article was very confusing, saying the Seneca was one of the best light twins around, and then badmouthing the airplane in the same sentence. Basicly, it sounds like the engines are fragile, but that's not the airplane's fault. Gotta talk to Continental about that. They do have numerous upgrades and mods available that help with engine performance and speed.
Don't know much about the Aztec, but I've heard they're scary. Any thoughts?
It comes down to being eeeeeaaassssyyyy on things when flying a turbo'd motor. I believe that the Seneca II's run a fixed wastegate, so you have to carefull about over boosting them. Piper has always been cheep, and a fixed wastegate is light and simple, but requires the pilot to pay more attention to what is going on. Run a little fuel through the engine also helps in keeping exhaust and turbo problems down, I don't care what the LOP guys say.
Aztec's being scary??? Hmmmm... I got my multi in one and flew one for a while. An honest airplane was my impression. If you turn a blind eye to Vmc and blue lines, you can work them in and out of some pretty short strips, not the smartest thing, but it can be done. Kind of like a twin engine super cub.
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 08, 2006, 10:31:27 PM
Merlin came out with an automatic waste gate mod. Supposed to really help with engine maintenance costs. We did notice that the guys that run 23-25 gph got nicer maintenance bills. The article used the Baron as a comparable airframe, and the Seneca is supposed to be a lot easier on the pocketbook.
Speaking of a twin Super Cub, have you ever seen a twin Citabria? I'm not sure why you'd want a twin with fixed pitch props, but this is an interesting find, anyway.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0409423/L/
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: Jay512 on February 23, 2006, 02:12:20 AM
wow thats a neat little twin! id love to take that to get my MEI in this summer
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: Jay512 on February 23, 2006, 02:18:58 AM
i just did an FAA search on that twin Citabria: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Serial Number 9 Type Registration Individual Manufacturer Name CHAMPION Certificate Issue Date 04/16/2001 Model 402 Status Valid Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Multi-Engine Type Engine Reciprocating Pending Number Change None Dealer No Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code 53360132 MFR Year 1963 Fractional Owner NO
Engine Manufacturer CONT MOTOR Classification Standard Engine Model 0-200 SERIES Category Normal Utility
A/W Date 04/20/1963
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 23, 2006, 02:43:35 AM
Is that the only model? Mr. Stewart has a valuable investment there.
There's a guy in Fargo here that has the first Aeronca Chief ever made. He wants $100,000 for it.
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: Jay512 on February 23, 2006, 04:53:16 AM
Heres more on the Champion 402: http://www.uccash.com/Auctions/champion/1963_champion_lancer.htm
Title: Re: Seneca shopping
Post by: fireflyr on February 24, 2006, 01:36:54 AM
I saw a Lancer at Napa County airport back in the 60s, it was barely an OK airplane when both engines were running but the single engine performance was pretty dismal because it had fixed pitch props---you could not feather the inoperative engine and as you all know a windmilling prop is equal to a 6 foot disc in drag (not the mini skirt type drag you pervert). Truly an example of the second engine carrying you to the crash site.
Just one of those "what the hell were they thinking?" airplanes.
