Roost Air Lounge => Current Strip => Topic started by: AirScorp on September 04, 2007, 10:31:35 AM
Title: The right of way
Post by: AirScorp on September 04, 2007, 10:31:35 AM
Great one guys! Kudos to you. I can already see a feature in the AOPA website ;D
But just a thought: You make the airline pilots seem to be the bad guys. They are not at fault (unless they are brainwashed too). It's the big heads that are to blame. But I guess there's no easy way to show that in a strip. The pilots are after all the companies' representatives.
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on September 04, 2007, 02:33:08 PM
Scorp, way too many of them ARE that brainwashed! ::complaining:
In my travels in California and elsewhere, I am constantly re-routed to stay clear of airline traffic, and I am held to lower cruising altitudes than I used to routinely use in order to accomodate airline traffic. This in a system that is supposed to be "First come, First served". I am afraid that policy actually went by the wayside around 15 years ago, and now the system is "Airlines are first amoung equals" although the first statement is official policy.
There is something to be said about the superior "snotty" attitude exhibited by many airline pilots, and I am glad Mike and Stef decided to tackle it in their cartoon. Many of them have this overblown image of themselves and greatly exaggerate their importance to everyone around them. Management's view of them is much closer to the reality; they are expensive Bus Drivers that drive a Bus with Wings.
Give me enough bananas, and I'll teach a monkey to do their job. ::thinking::
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: AirScorp on September 04, 2007, 03:41:22 PM
Sorry to hear so...
But, hey, on that other thing... How many bananas would it take? I might take you on that offer.. I can be a real ape sometimes ::rofl:: ::rofl:: ::rofl::
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: Mike on September 04, 2007, 05:14:53 PM
Everybody who flies IFR knows that the airlines already get the right of way and have been getting it for a long time. In certain circumstances I totally understand. It costs a lot of money to keep these things in a holding pattern while a C-172 tries it's first training-IFR approach and I wouldn't want to be behind one of those either. But they want more and more and are affecting other GA traffic that can easily keep up with them like light twins and private jets and I don't think that's right.
Every time I take off out of Las Vegas (as a passenger with South West) in the mornings I can't help but notice that about 30 flights leave between 7am and 8am which makes for a HUGE line at security and a traffic jam on the way to the ruway. The last time the captain told us we're number 12 (!) in line for take-off and it took us 40min to get there. And since I live next to the airport I can often see them all bunched up on the taxiway.
Now, you also have to look at their view as well. If I am Delta for example and my research shows that everybody wants to go to Boise at 8am in the morning, I would schedule a flight there for this time I guess. My reasoning would be that if I schedule the flight to leave at 9am because 8am is already crammed full with Southwest flights to avoid the traffic, I would lose my customers because they would look for whichever flight leaves at 8am. See what I am getting at? (even though the flight won't be off the ground by 9am anyways.... ;))
And Cruiser is right, I do sometimes see the airline pilots being a little "disconnected" from their roots in GA. A lot of us forget sometimes where they came from. I am guilty of that as well every now and them. But I got all of you and Chuck to keep me in check! ;) It's just a little different if you do this for a living day in and day out and it's easier for airline pilots to forget because they don't interact with their groundcrews as much as helo pilots do. With out my support and my mechanics, and especially my fueltruck, . . . I'd fly for about 2hrs and/or 280 miles and I am done. Plus we seldom operate out of big airports with our "choppers"....
So please keep in mind, we are not trying to target airline pilots with this thing, but the attitude of big airline corporations which someof them might get caught up in. AND!! as always, keep this in mind: "It's a cartoon with chickens flying airplanes!!" ;D
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: undatc on September 04, 2007, 09:37:49 PM
You think its a nightmare for you as pilots? Try being a controller and trying to get everyone off and in at the same time with close to no delays. Tracon controllers are true artists when peak times hit.
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: AirScorp on September 04, 2007, 11:19:56 PM
So please keep in mind, we are not trying to target airline pilots with this thing, but the attitude of big airline corporations which some of them might get caught up in. AND!! as always, keep this in mind: "It's a cartoon with chickens flying airplanes!!" ;D
I never thought otherwise Mike! Sorry if I didn't put it in the right words if I was misunderstood. I too am a regular at the AOPA website and have been monitoring the whole FAA funding/GA vs Airlines matter for almost a year now. I too hate seeing what I call the last GA/small commercial paradise, North America that is, being forced to the ground by the airlines. I know where this is going to end if they get their way, I live in Europe. More so, I happen to live in a country where aviation is in the medieval era :)
So I did laugh, with a devious smile and did get the point. I actually like it even more when you are being satyristic (that in my language means being critical in a funny way) than plain humorous.
But I'm away from the dance and don't even know the steps. I'm not a pilot (yet ::wave::). So I am just being romantic about all pilots being one and the same.
Anyway, to get back to the humour part, I laughed my ass off when I saw the sign "The Mocha Maker Mecca". That got me! Don't ask why, I don't know. Maybe I can relate to the guy with the green hat. Working the cafeteria at the airport to pay for flight instruction :D
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: Mike on September 05, 2007, 05:35:13 PM
Anyway, to get back to the humour part, I laughed my ass off when I saw the sign "The Mocha Maker Mecca". That got me! Don't ask why, I don't know. Maybe I can relate to the guy with the green hat. Working the cafeteria at the airport to pay for flight instruction :D
HA HA! :D
I am glad you caught that! We came up with that last minute the day before we posted the strip. A lot of strips have things like that in there and we're always curious if you guys catch it or not and how long it takes you . . .
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: AirScorp on September 06, 2007, 04:17:54 AM
I have to be fair.. It's getting better lately!
Icarus? Wasn't he the first chuck?
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: Frank N. O. on September 06, 2007, 04:23:38 AM
HAHAHA, the first Chuck, oh dude that was totally a duesie!! ::bow:: ::rofl:: ::wave::
It's a pretty lame excuse to blame GA for delays I must say. And the explanation you guys presented about planned times and realistic times sounds very clausible as the true truth.
Frank
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: FlyboyGil on September 06, 2007, 02:55:49 PM
If some pilots ever pushed me out of the way like that, then they would be right about GA delaying commercial flights. See if they ever pushed me (I am a GA pilot) then the flight would be delayed. But it would be because the pilot who did the pushing was now in traction. Maybe you have to follow the rules when tower lays them out, but afterwards.....no!
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: AirScorp on September 06, 2007, 03:48:55 PM
This one is for all of you:
Sorry that I can't draw any better!
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: Fabo on September 06, 2007, 04:00:46 PM
Now THIS is hilarious! :D
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: undatc on September 06, 2007, 05:11:14 PM
Oh snap, Mike and Stef have some competition.... |:)\
BTW just for knowledge sake, Flight Levels start at 180 ;D
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: Fabo on September 06, 2007, 05:25:27 PM
Oh snap, Mike and Stef have some competition.... |:)\
BTW just for knowledge sake, Flight Levels start at 180 ;D
Not in Greece... If you want to catch on words, go for Ascend instead of Climb to FL ;)
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: AirScorp on September 06, 2007, 06:10:17 PM
Hehe.. All correct. Guess it was too spontaneous to think about FL and ascend/climb twice ::rofl::
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: UrCaptainSpekin on September 07, 2007, 02:15:50 AM
Ok, guys, I must come down unequivocally, firmly, without reservation, on both sides of this issue. The problem is not a lack of concrete per metal flying machine. It’s not even a lack of airspace per se. It’s a matter of density plus a lack of compatibility. When everybody is doing 210 kts in the pattern and 180 kts over the marker, they can be packed in pretty tight. But if one of those dudes needs 70 kts on final, it throws a giant monkey wrench into the works.
I’ve been the guy in the 747 that had to go around (blowing 10,000 pounds of gas out the tailpipe) for the C-172 who wouldn’t (or couldn’t) keep his speed up. And I’ve been the guy in the Cessna who had to hold for an hour waiting for a big enough gap between the heavies. There is no easy answer. In the meantime, maybe it’s best, when you are flying light, to stay out of the big, busy airports. Not because you have no right to be there, but because it’s a lot less hassle for everybody.
And BTW, I knew a nice Delta pilot once. Of course he did quit and took a job with Wal Mart.
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: G-man on September 07, 2007, 03:45:09 AM
There is no easy answer. In the meantime, maybe it’s best, when you are flying light, to stay out of the big, busy airports. Not because you have no right to be there, but because it’s a lot less hassle for everybody.
Or pick the quiet times of day......
Of course, me, I just hover or sidestep out of the way, if only Y'all in your cesna's could do the same............
Awaiting my "asskicking......"
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: Frank N. O. on September 07, 2007, 07:28:25 AM
Ok, guys, I must come down unequivocally, firmly, without reservation, on both sides of this issue. The problem is not a lack of concrete per metal flying machine. It’s not even a lack of airspace per se. It’s a matter of density plus a lack of compatibility. When everybody is doing 210 kts in the pattern and 180 kts over the marker, they can be packed in pretty tight. But if one of those dudes needs 70 kts on final, it throws a giant monkey wrench into the works.
I’ve been the guy in the 747 that had to go around (blowing 10,000 pounds of gas out the tailpipe) for the C-172 who wouldn’t (or couldn’t) keep his speed up. And I’ve been the guy in the Cessna who had to hold for an hour waiting for a big enough gap between the heavies. There is no easy answer. In the meantime, maybe it’s best, when you are flying light, to stay out of the big, busy airports. Not because you have no right to be there, but because it’s a lot less hassle for everybody.
And BTW, I knew a nice Delta pilot once. Of course he did quit and took a job with Wal Mart.
Very very good post I must say! |:)\ Good easy-to-understand facts, clear and friendly language and clearly showing, and knowing, the difference between principle and reality, what one is allowed to do, and what is a good idea in real life under the circumstances. I'd feel very bad about having a 747 behind me if I was in a small slow airplane, giving it and all aboard trouble so I don't think I'd ever try to land at a big airport unless I really had a reason, and preferably a bird that would be a bit more practical than a slow Cessna. The pilot who gave me my sadly so far only flight, said they'd taken the F177RG (Reims-built Cardinal) we were flying in to a large airport in Europe and the controllers were happy that they could manage 120 kts until shortly before landing so they didn't have to push the jets too far back, with the speeds you list for a slower Cessna and for the large jets I can now really understand/believe that. I also now more than ever want speed-brakes on a plane I'm going to fly since they could possibly help a lot.
I was wondering though, in the series then Roost Air uses small planes to deliver small pakcages, could such a company ever exist in real life where a costumer would insist of delivery at a major airport? Realistically I'd say that both the company and the costumer would be much better off to use a smaller airport, also for the practical side of getting the package from the plane to the costumer's hands and for the costumer to get away from the airport again (getting in and out of the parkinglot area and the roadnet is probably a lot bigger and more time-consuming than at a smaller airport that could also be cloer to the costumer since there are more small airports than big ones, at least here in Denmark).
Greetings Frank
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: Baradium on September 07, 2007, 08:13:51 AM
Scorp, way too many of them ARE that brainwashed! ::complaining:
In my travels in California and elsewhere, I am constantly re-routed to stay clear of airline traffic, and I am held to lower cruising altitudes than I used to routinely use in order to accomodate airline traffic. This in a system that is supposed to be "First come, First served". I am afraid that policy actually went by the wayside around 15 years ago, and now the system is "Airlines are first amoung equals" although the first statement is official policy.
There is something to be said about the superior "snotty" attitude exhibited by many airline pilots, and I am glad Mike and Stef decided to tackle it in their cartoon. Many of them have this overblown image of themselves and greatly exaggerate their importance to everyone around them. Management's view of them is much closer to the reality; they are expensive Bus Drivers that drive a Bus with Wings.
Of course we are....
Quote
Give me enough bananas, and I'll teach a monkey to do their job. ::thinking::
Ouch.
That same monkey could do your job as well, so lay off please. That bus driver thing is true, this is not only a lie but it's incredibly demeaning.
Keep in mind that most of the RJs you see flying around are being flown by pilots making near minimum wage. And that's a substantial amount of todays airline traffic. I guess you aren't worth any more than that either... after all, a monkey could do it. Your job just as easily.
Most airline pilots are actually on your side on this issue. But stuff like this won't help.
Just because you come across some pilots who have an attitude doesn't mean they all are like that. I've seen GA pilots as stuck up as the snobbiest airline pilot I've ever come across, but I don't make remarks about corporate pilots because some of them don't want to be associated with us "bus drivers." And I've seen the exact same attitude from corporate pilots about the guys in the light singles as well. But that's different then isn't it? Because then it's only a little cessna?
Just becuase ATC reroutes you for the airlines doesn't mean that the airline pilots asked for it. That's ATC, you want to complain about it talk to Chris (undatc). I haven't ever asked and I've never heard of an airline pilot asking to get priority. There are some who expect it... and there are corporate guys who do too.
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on September 08, 2007, 01:24:01 AM
...BTW just for knowledge sake, Flight Levels start at 180 ;D
Only in the USA. Other countries start flight levels at different altitudes.
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: Stef on September 08, 2007, 09:08:54 AM
Please, everybody! Don't start fighting now!
Don't call each other bus drivers or monkeys! Show some respect! (to bus drivers and monkeys! :) ;D )
It's a little bit like car traffic, isn't it? (not exactly, but a bit) You try to avoid rush hour when all the roads are blocked with trucks and buses, but when you're stuck, you can't really blame the truck or bus drivers. After all they're just doing their job. A different thing altogether would be if all passenger cars would have to use the right lane and the rest would be open exclusively to buses and trucks, right?
Now I know it's a bad analogy, because the airliners are faster than the GA planes, but you get the point, right? We know there's no easy solution, because if there was, they would probably have solved the problem already.
It's great that we can hear about this issue from so different viewpoints in here! But please stay civilized! |:)\
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: Stef on September 08, 2007, 09:10:35 AM
If we ever start hiring artists or gag writers, we will approach you first! ::bow::
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: The Dancing Bear on September 11, 2007, 01:15:52 PM
Ok, EVERYBODY , take a step back, admit Stef has a valid point ,& make nice again. Or us maintenance guys will take the carb / fuel control off your airy machines & hide them till you do !
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: Frank N. O. on September 11, 2007, 01:27:21 PM
Uhm, did I say something wrong? ??? I thought the Captain's post was really good, with great points to actually enhance the understand across the board and give information to help get the real world moving better for all and that's what I tried to express in my post.
Frank
Title: Re: The right of way
Post by: Mike on September 13, 2007, 05:57:25 AM
I thought it was great to see an airline captains point of view, especially since we are more on the GA side. Didn't look to me like anybody was fighting....
But I also want to stress the fact again, that the strip was intended to target Delta and their anti-GA campaign and not to start and airline"pilots" vs. GA"pilots". I actually see little airliner/GA interaction everywhere I usually go. That's why we were surprised to see Delta blame GA for it's delays.
Lot's of the big airports have small satelites we can fly into so there shouldn't be anybody insisting on flying the ILS into LAX when he can easily fly into Hawthorne or Santa Monica and and get a better fuel price on top of that!
The problem is not a lack of concrete per metal flying machine. It’s not even a lack of airspace per se. It’s a matter of density plus a lack of compatibility. When everybody is doing 210 kts in the pattern and 180 kts over the marker, they can be packed in pretty tight. But if one of those dudes needs 70 kts on final, it throws a giant monkey wrench into the works.
Captain Ed, would you agree though that a lot of delays really are a result of airline scheduling? Just wanted to get some input from the industry....
