Chicken Wings Forum

Roost Air Lounge => Current Strip => Topic started by: The Dancing Bear on May 08, 2007, 01:27:43 PM

Title: Hiccups
Post by: The Dancing Bear on May 08, 2007, 01:27:43 PM
This strip in Trade-A-Plane .......  guys , I didn't have hiccups & it scared me too! Mike,Stefan,guys please, my heart can only stand just so much shock. Skymaster aaaarrrggghhh !!! ::banghead:: Nice to know Chuck has THE answer to that problem though.............
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: Frank N. O. on May 09, 2007, 12:55:17 AM
Hahahaha, I just found the strip in question after this post, that's great fun! Hearing you guys talk about the Mixmaster and it's problems, and even reading how it had a lot more during testing in an article about GA Testpilots in a magazine I have then I'm pretty sure I'd pass on a ride in one :D

Frank
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: Mike on May 09, 2007, 03:01:21 AM
Oh, make no mistake Frank. The Mixmaster flies like a dream. It's one of the most stable airplanes I've ever been in. Lot's of fun to fly. I can see how pilots  really love them.

Just working on it is a nightmare. I ended up becoming somewhat of a "specialist" on them when I was working for the Cessna Repair Station by accident and not by choice. I hated them. Especially working on that rear engine on a pressurized, airconditioned model was rough....
They didn't make that many either so parts always were an issue.

... therefore Julio hates Skymasters. It will be an ongoing B-story joke until I have worked through my issues about fixing them . . .  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: The Dancing Bear on May 09, 2007, 01:51:38 PM
Mike,
Several years ago an intrepid ,brave & daring pilot decided to visit his mom on a farm close to the one owned by my in-laws. He rented a "Mixmaster" and proceded to "drop in" for his visit. He had done this escapade several times in the past with other Cessnas ,just not THAT model . The field is one of those that "rollercoaster" up & down ,and had recently had the hay removed. Did I mention the POWER LINES crossing the midline of the field ?  Anyway things were going just dandy ,right up to the unexpected crosswind and hidden tractor tire rut. He was doing good with the crosswind landing but, the rut sent the left wing and left boom into one of those large wooden things they use to hold the wires up. Uh, lemme see, as I recall the obviously bent stuff came to the aforementioned wing & boom(s)  (The mess included the left vertical stab.and warped the right boom assy.), left gear,& gave the nose prop a "slight bend" . Naturally along with the bent prop, came a trip to the overhaul shop for the engine due to "sudden stoppage". The local Cessna shop tore their hair out when they saw their airplane sitting in the field ! The insurance company adjuster blanched when he saw it .The power company got a new pole too, come to think of it. That airplane stayed in the shop for ,shall we say, "an extended period of time".
 Then there's that whole "centerline thrust" thing... however,as you said ,folks who drive them just love 'em !
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: airtac on May 09, 2007, 03:02:26 PM
Mike,
Several years ago an intrepid ,brave & daring pilot decided to visit his mom on a farm close to the one owned by my in-laws. He rented a "Mixmaster" and proceded to "drop in" for his visit. He had done this escapade several times in the past with other Cessnas ,just not THAT model . The field is one of those that "rollercoaster" up & down ,and had recently had the hay removed. Did I mention the POWER LINES crossing the midline of the field ?  Anyway things were going just dandy ,right up to the unexpected crosswind and hidden tractor tire rut. He was doing good with the crosswind landing but, the rut sent the left wing and left boom into one of those large wooden things they use to hold the wires up. Uh, lemme see, as I recall the obviously bent stuff came to the aforementioned wing & boom(s)  (The mess included the left vertical stab.and warped the right boom assy.), left gear,& gave the nose prop a "slight bend" . Naturally along with the bent prop, came a trip to the overhaul shop for the engine due to "sudden stoppage". The local Cessna shop tore their hair out when they saw their airplane sitting in the field ! The insurance company adjuster blanched when he saw it .The power company got a new pole too, come to think of it. That airplane stayed in the shop for ,shall we say, "an extended period of time".
 Then there's that whole "centerline thrust" thing... however,as you said ,folks who drive them just love 'em !

UHHH, I hate to rain on anybody's parade but not EVERYBODY who drives'em, loves'em--- :P
I think it's a very easy airplane to fly but that is not one of my parameters for loving an airplane ::wave:: :-\
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: Mike on May 09, 2007, 04:29:27 PM
UHHH, I hate to rain on anybody's parade but not EVERYBODY who drives'em, loves'em--- :P
I think it's a very easy airplane to fly but that is not one of my parameters for loving an airplane ::wave:: :-\

see??  SEE ? ? ? ?   ;)

That's what I was talking about! Told you! HA  ::wave::

I am not exactly sure what your point was in this story. I can relate to the maintenance shop pulling their hair out. But if your point was that this accident had anything to do with the airplane and/or centerline thrust I gotta say it sounds that this could have happened in any airplane . . .  ???

Hey Jim, would you mind briefly elaborating on why you love the plane.
I know you probably have the most time in them of all of us here in the forum.
(except the old Skyking, which I am not sure is the same as the new Skyking who seemed to have thousands of hours in every model ever built by Cessna)
I'd be really interested!!
(HA... also after reading this again.... briefly elaborating . . . that's funny.... like "Happy Marriage" or "Military Intelligence")
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: The Dancing Bear on May 09, 2007, 05:05:04 PM
Uh,sorry 'bout the ranting & raving.  ::banghead:: ::banghead:: ::banghead:: Sometimes I do what the little voices in my head tell me to. Usually I end up like you just saw. Thanks for putting up with my  ::complaining: ::complaining: ::knockedout::. 
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: Frank N. O. on May 09, 2007, 06:40:19 PM
Uh,sorry 'bout the ranting & raving.  ::banghead:: ::banghead:: ::banghead:: Sometimes I do what the little voices in my head tell me to. Usually I end up like you just saw. Thanks for putting up with my  ::complaining: ::complaining: ::knockedout::. 
In case you haven't noticed, that's what we all do here :D I in fact just made up a name for it: The AIR Syndrome - Aviation Induced Ranting/raving ::rofl:: ::wave::

Btw, sorry if I sounded off negative against the Mixmaster. In reality I'm so interested in making sure I can still handle flying so as long as I can fit into it, I'll take a ride in just about everything.

Frank
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: Mike on May 09, 2007, 08:47:43 PM
Uh,sorry 'bout the ranting & raving.  ::banghead:: ::banghead:: ::banghead:: Sometimes I do what the little voices in my head tell me to. Usually I end up like you just saw. Thanks for putting up with my  ::complaining: ::complaining: ::knockedout::. 

hey, no worries! This forum is all about ranting and raving!  ;)  ;D
I just wasn't sure if I understood you correctly. btw . . . who was that brave and daring pilot you wrote about ?? a certain bear who can dance maybe ?   ;)

I am really interested on what Jim has to say though, because the "Julio-hating-the-337-and-Chuck-loving-it" theme WILL come up again !
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: airtac on May 10, 2007, 11:55:27 AM
Uh,sorry 'bout the ranting & raving.  ::banghead:: ::banghead:: ::banghead:: Sometimes I do what the little voices in my head tell me to. Usually I end up like you just saw. Thanks for putting up with my  ::complaining: ::complaining: ::knockedout::. 

hey, no worries! This forum is all about ranting and raving!  ;)  ;D
I just wasn't sure if I understood you correctly. btw . . . who was that brave and daring pilot you wrote about ?? a certain bear who can dance maybe ?   ;)

I am really interested on what Jim has to say though, because the "Julio-hating-the-337-and-Chuck-loving-it" theme WILL come up again !
Gee Mike,
You've kind of put me on the spot--having to explain my prejudices against the 337
As far as normal  flying qualities go, it's OK---there's just not anything that you'd brag about.  I mean, it was stable enough and you could feather the front engine at 8-10K then climb away at 500 fpm (turbocharged with 2 people on board) but it lacked the solid feel that (for me) inspires confidence.  At the low airspeeds and high bank angles typically used over a fire I found myself having to pay too much attention to the airplane's limits, being careful not to exceed them rather than just flying it into any position the airattack needed to do his job.                   
 I guess I'm saying that, yes, it does fly like any Cessna single but thats part of the problem too, it FEELS like a little airplane, something that you NEED to be carefull with so as not to yank too hard and stall it or damage something. 
And the fact that it's really an easy airplane to fly it is part of the problem of the high accident rate that the type suffers from--folks figure that with center line thrust, it's going to be a pussycat if they pop an engine so they become complacent about single engine procedures and that is WRONG!   It's a twin and like any light twin, when you lose 50% of your power, you are going to lose 80% (or more) of your performance so you need to have a plan already thought out in every phase of flight to deal with that emergency.

In addition, the damn thing is small inside so that 2 big guys like me are crowded AND with all the survival crap we carry, it's at max gross with 3 average people and full fuel.   
To be frank, I flew one because I was paid very well to do so but I think it's a terrible airplane for fire missions.   Maybe it's a great personal twin for some people but I don't like having to work in one.   But of course, that's just my opinion
 8)
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: Mike on May 10, 2007, 03:20:08 PM
HA HA !!!  :D ::rofl::

You know what? I totally misread your post Jim. I thought you wrote "EVERYBODY who flies them, loves them" instead of
"NOT everybody"  oops!  :-[

I guess my posts seem a little confusing now looking back at it . . . ::banghead::

Oh well. Thanks for the info Jim. I don't have much experience with big airplanes and even with single engine procedures in light Twin Airplanes. I was just impressed how much more solid it is as compared to the 172's and 182's I used to fly around. Oh, and I never took them into fires!

When you talk about the 337, it almost sounds like me when I talk about the Long Ranger, HA HA.

Well. . . .  let's all go back to hating the Skymaster then !! Trust me, it's fine with me!   ::wave:: ;D ;)
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on May 10, 2007, 05:18:43 PM
Jim, I had a question about airattack, but I think you answered it.  Are there two guys in that airplane?  Listening on the radio to some local fires, it seems like a lot of work to fly the plane and control all the other planes coming in on the fire.
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: The Dancing Bear on May 11, 2007, 02:47:10 AM
Uh,I gotta spoil things fer 'ya ,but I was NOT the intrepid birdman in that story.Like Hans when I have to fly, everything turns into a "heavy"! Usually I end up going as freight, cuz that's the only way the CG works out. But the doc says I have to lose mass quantities of excess "stored energy" ;) . So that will have to change most dramatically over the next several months/years. Hey,it took a long time to accumulate it ,so it'll take a while to safely get rid of it. ( Actually he said lose it or die early. I want to be a pain to the great,great grandkids,so the doc's the boss! I feel like Hans though."Broccoli,sniff!")
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: airtac on May 11, 2007, 07:40:29 AM
Jim, I had a question about airattack, but I think you answered it.  Are there two guys in that airplane?  Listening on the radio to some local fires, it seems like a lot of work to fly the plane and control all the other planes coming in on the fire.

Yes, the Air Attack (actually, Air Tactics) officer is an experienced and well trained government firefighter who is authorized to order aerial resources for a fire.  He usually does not have any flying experience as a pilot and because he sits in the right seat is the reason we make right hand circles (opposite of the tankers) over the fire.   The pilot's main responsibility is to keep the pertinent area of the fire in plain view out the right hand window and using CRM principles backs up the AA on the sometimes as many as 7 frequencies in use on an incident.  Often, depending on the experience of either individual, the pilot is utilized to coordinate incoming and outgoing traffic but the pilot is never authorized to make drop decisions or resource orders.
Simply put, we put the platform in the best position for him or her to make the best decisions based on what they see.  It's a pretty easy job but you need to understand what their needs are before they know they need them. ::whistle::
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: TheSoccerMom on May 11, 2007, 06:23:03 PM
Well put, Airtac!  There is a LOT going on...  communications being a huge part of the workload...  throw in bad air, thunderstorms, lots of airplanes and helicopters all in the same spot...  ahh, they wonder why we have grey hair....   ::rofl:: 
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: airtac on May 12, 2007, 01:16:47 AM
Well put, Airtac!  There is a LOT going on...  communications being a huge part of the workload...  throw in bad air, thunderstorms, lots of airplanes and helicopters all in the same spot...  ahh, they wonder why we have grey hair....   ::rofl:: 
Who's got grey hair????   Still mostly blonde thank you, er, ah, everywhere ::)

You're right about the commo though and what's funny is to get a control freak (several come to mind) who can't delegate anything and just sit mum while he flounders around and finally when he screws up enough, I'll direct traffic away from a conflict, THEN tell him about it and watch him/her eat some humble pie  ;)
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on May 12, 2007, 03:36:51 PM
Thanks, Jim.  And Mary.
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: Baradium on May 13, 2007, 05:49:34 AM
 
To be frank, I flew one because I was paid very well


Why are you trying to be Frank?   We already have one.  If we have too many Franks it'll get a bit confusing....

Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: Baradium on May 13, 2007, 05:50:27 AM
Well put, Airtac!  There is a LOT going on...  communications being a huge part of the workload...  throw in bad air, thunderstorms, lots of airplanes and helicopters all in the same spot...  ahh, they wonder why we have grey hair....   ::rofl:: 

I thought pilots got grey hair by not being bold...
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: airtac on May 13, 2007, 06:17:38 AM
Well put, Airtac!  There is a LOT going on...  communications being a huge part of the workload...  throw in bad air, thunderstorms, lots of airplanes and helicopters all in the same spot...  ahh, they wonder why we have grey hair....   ::rofl:: 

I thought pilots got grey hair by not being bold...
HA! I'm proof that ain't always so
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: Frank N. O. on May 13, 2007, 12:01:22 PM
Hey cool, if grey hair is the badge of experience then I'll look like a veteran from the get-go when I start  8) :D

Frank
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: airtac on May 13, 2007, 03:50:57 PM
Hey cool, if grey hair is the badge of experience then I'll look like a veteran from the get-go when I start  8) :D

Frank

To look like REAL veteran you need bags under the eyes from waiting long hours in wierd airports and antiacid tablets in your shirt pocket to treat the heartburn caused by drinking old airport coffee  :P(in addition to the grey hair) ----and a bit of pot belly adds to the effect! ;)
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: tundra_flier on May 15, 2007, 11:22:46 PM
Uh,sorry 'bout the ranting & raving.  ::banghead:: ::banghead:: ::banghead:: Sometimes I do what the little voices in my head tell me to. Usually I end up like you just saw. Thanks for putting up with my  ::complaining: ::complaining: ::knockedout::. 

hey, no worries! This forum is all about ranting and raving!  ;)  ;D
I just wasn't sure if I understood you correctly. btw . . . who was that brave and daring pilot you wrote about ?? a certain bear who can dance maybe ?   ;)

I am really interested on what Jim has to say though, because the "Julio-hating-the-337-and-Chuck-loving-it" theme WILL come up again !
Gee Mike,
You've kind of put me on the spot--having to explain my prejudices against the 337
As far as normal  flying qualities go, it's OK---there's just not anything that you'd brag about.  I mean, it was stable enough and you could feather the front engine at 8-10K then climb away at 500 fpm (turbocharged with 2 people on board) but it lacked the solid feel that (for me) inspires confidence.  At the low airspeeds and high bank angles typically used over a fire I found myself having to pay too much attention to the airplane's limits, being careful not to exceed them rather than just flying it into any position the airattack needed to do his job.                   
 I guess I'm saying that, yes, it does fly like any Cessna single but thats part of the problem too, it FEELS like a little airplane, something that you NEED to be carefull with so as not to yank too hard and stall it or damage something. 
And the fact that it's really an easy airplane to fly it is part of the problem of the high accident rate that the type suffers from--folks figure that with center line thrust, it's going to be a pussycat if they pop an engine so they become complacent about single engine procedures and that is WRONG!   It's a twin and like any light twin, when you lose 50% of your power, you are going to lose 80% (or more) of your performance so you need to have a plan already thought out in every phase of flight to deal with that emergency.

In addition, the damn thing is small inside so that 2 big guys like me are crowded AND with all the survival crap we carry, it's at max gross with 3 average people and full fuel.   
To be frank, I flew one because I was paid very well to do so but I think it's a terrible airplane for fire missions.   Maybe it's a great personal twin for some people but I don't like having to work in one.   But of course, that's just my opinion
 8)

Airtac, had a Nam vet who worked as a FAC tell me about the 337.  He said you had to make sure you established exactly the bank angle you wanted before starting an attack dive, because above Vne the ailerons locked up!  ::eek::  Any comments?

Phil  ::cowboy::
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: tundra_flier on May 15, 2007, 11:25:28 PM
Hey cool, if grey hair is the badge of experience then I'll look like a veteran from the get-go when I start  8) :D

Frank

To look like REAL veteran you need bags under the eyes from waiting long hours in wierd airports and antiacid tablets in your shirt pocket to treat the heartburn caused by drinking old airport coffee  :P(in addition to the grey hair) ----and a bit of pot belly adds to the effect! ;)

And here I thought hte antiacid was from drinking something other than coffee.   ::thinking::

Phil ::cowboy::
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: airtac on May 16, 2007, 03:15:47 AM

[/quote]

Airtac, had a Nam vet who worked as a FAC tell me about the 337.  He said you had to make sure you established exactly the bank angle you wanted before starting an attack dive, because above Vne the ailerons locked up!  ::eek::  Any comments?

Phil  ::cowboy::
[/quote]
Phil, I've never heard that before---good thing too, it might have made me a little uneasy in a dive ::eek:: ------------Don't think I ever had one over 200 knots, they're pretty short on power :-\
Jim
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: airtac on May 16, 2007, 03:27:39 AM
Hey cool, if grey hair is the badge of experience then I'll look like a veteran from the get-go when I start  8) :D

Frank

To look like REAL veteran you need bags under the eyes from waiting long hours in wierd airports and antiacid tablets in your shirt pocket to treat the heartburn caused by drinking old airport coffee  :P(in addition to the grey hair) ----and a bit of pot belly adds to the effect! ;)

And here I thought hte antiacid was from drinking something other than coffee.   ::thinking::

Phil ::cowboy::
HEY  >:( 
I'll have you know, I drink nothing but the finest 5 dollar a gallon Gin that money can buy---    Aged too,---at least a week ::)
Title: Re: Hiccups
Post by: tundra_flier on May 16, 2007, 03:52:07 AM
Quote
HEY   
I'll have you know, I drink nothing but the finest 5 dollar a gallon Gin that money can buy---    Aged too,---at least a week

See, there's your problem.  I stick to 12 month old whiskey myself.  ::drinking::

Phil ::cowboy::
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