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Roost Air Lounge => The Classroom => Topic started by: spacer on May 04, 2007, 04:57:29 AM

Title: uvsc?
Post by: spacer on May 04, 2007, 04:57:29 AM
I'm getting tired of picking around the edges, and I think I'll get old before I can really get off the ground on a professional level at this rate.

So... I'm going over to Central tomorrow to look into the Utah Valley program they offer, a Bachelor's degree in Aviation Science, with an ATP rating at the end.
During the course of this thing, I'm hoping to get my paws on a light sport airplane I can use to pad my logbook a little (hey, the 801 is years in the future right now),
but I'm going to have to finance this thing if I'm going to get 'in' with enough time left to save for a halfway decent retirement.
If I'm *real* lucky... there are quite a few corporate flight departments at this airport, who like to hire local talent, especially when they have maintenance experience.
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst... at the very least, I may be able to fly cancelled checks with Flight Express for a while.

I guess I'll subscribe to Flight Training, and peruse all the pertinent web info, and I've already bought the Sporty's Private DVD ground course, which I hope will put me ahead of
the game, as I'll have time to complete it before starting my actual schoolin'.

Advice? Suggestions? I know it's scary, and noob pilots don't get paid squat, but I can't figure out anything else I really wanna do when I grow up. I've been on a really crooked and
convoluted road all my life, doing everything but flying... all the time wanting to get in the air. I guess I've been scared of it, almost.
There's only the one thing I want to do with my life, and I've always wanted to do it. The idea of failure scares the crap out of me, and I think I've let it get the best of me
all these years. Kinda like a Kamikaze career choice.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: airtac on May 04, 2007, 05:02:36 AM
ATTA WAY VELOJYM |:)\ |:)\ |:)\
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Baradium on May 04, 2007, 07:19:56 AM
What do you have right now?

Hours,  ratings, etc.


Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: spacer on May 04, 2007, 08:39:24 PM
What do you have right now?

Hours,  ratings, etc.




Ah kin fix 'em up a bit...

4.5 hours, SEL, a few landings (same # as takeoffs  ;D ), a little time in a 172 RG...

I'd picked up some time over the last 15 years, but lost my logbook, mostly 150s, Tomahawks, and a Champ.

I'm a newb with light, scattered experience and a well-worn dream.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: TheSoccerMom on May 05, 2007, 04:12:27 AM
........doing everything but flying... all the time wanting to get in the air....

Hi Velo,

I think your thought (above) says it all...  anything that keeps crowding into your thoughts so much, is worth checking into!     |:)\

Let us know what you find out...  all the best!!

S'Mom    :)
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Baradium on May 05, 2007, 06:52:50 AM
An ATP at the end... so that program takes 1500 hours+ of flying experience to complete?

Sounds like that program could turn into a lot of money...

Do you have a degree?

Right now, regionals are hiring like mad, I'd say go to a program that ends with a Commercial multi and maybe a CFI if you wanted one.  Regionals right now don't care about a degree, but if you have aspirations for a major, a degree can be important.

If you don't want to do airline stuff, going to a school that ends with an ATP is something I'd think would still keep you from actually flying for a bit longer than you need to.

Having your A&P *will* help for many corporate departments as you can work on the airplane "on the road" so to speak.  You do have to be careful though as some companies have been known to keep those pilots more mechanics than pilots, turning them into reserve pilots and giving the job to someone else full time later on down the road.


The industry right now is really short on pilots, and it's translating system wide.  An ATP will take a lot longer to get then you need to spend to get flying. 

Mesa is putting people into their training program (that one is a pay program) who don't have a multi engine rating and there are a number of companies who are hiring with basic commercial multiengine ratings.

Even if you want corporate and they want the ATP etc  it might be faster to get the commercial or CFI and fly for a year or two commercially building experience (plus that gives you turbine experience).


Just a couple years ago, "minimums" were what you had to have for a company to consider hiring you.   Now, for many companies, it's a wish list and if you meet the FAA requirements you're in play.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: airtac on May 05, 2007, 02:28:24 PM

I absolutely agree with what Baradium is saying---do the hire-able minimums and go for it, once you get a job, you can always do the ATP written and by then the check ride will be a snap because (1) it's not a whole lot harder than a 135 check ride and (2) many companies (Ameriflight for instance) can and will incorporate it with a 135 ride which translates to a free rating!  The main thing is be persistent and GO FOR IT-----NOW or ASAP !!! |:)\ |:)\
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: spacer on May 05, 2007, 05:10:51 PM
I just looked over the course, and it appears that the ATP ground is covered, but I only need to complete the other ratings to graduate. It does mention the 1500 hour requirement, and I'll give 'em a call to see if there'll need to be some followup later.
The Associate's degree covers up to Commercial, but there's a lot of stuff covered in the BS that I'd like to have under my belt: FBO management and stuff like that.
I'd like to have a few other qualifications under my belt, for the lean times.

One of the guys from the local school was hired pretty quickly by a local corporate outfit, partially because he had his A&P in addition to his new flight ratings.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: airtac on May 05, 2007, 05:23:38 PM

One of the guys from the local school was hired pretty quickly by a local corporate outfit, partially because he had his A&P in addition to his new flight ratings.

YEP, the A&P is a definite plus
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Baradium on May 06, 2007, 03:05:39 AM
Keep in mind that if you go the airline route seniority is *everything*.  A new hire is a new hire, 100 hours or 10,000.

Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: spacer on May 06, 2007, 03:29:46 AM
Is it any different with cargo companies? I'm not really aiming for people tubes, but I'll fly cattle cars if it's what's there.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Baradium on May 06, 2007, 05:23:21 AM
Is it any different with cargo companies? I'm not really aiming for people tubes, but I'll fly cattle cars if it's what's there.


UPS and FedEx are the perverbial holy grails of "airline" jobs right now.  Both are scheduled and yes, seniority is just as important.

If affects what kind of schedule you have, what position you are in, how much you are paid, and where in line you are if furloughs ever come up.

There are other cargo companies out there as well, such as Atlas and Polar (same company now).  Many foreign companies will require you to essentially move overseas and UPS is saying they will now require trans oceanic experience (just because they can).

Regional is a good place to start, even if you don't want to always do scheduled passenger, just to get you the turbine time.  Of course, you don't have to fly a jet to get turbine time (turboprops are out there too).
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: airtac on May 06, 2007, 03:36:26 PM
I've sent a number of people to Ameriflight with the statement that they will be burning kerosene within 90 days and most have called me back within that period saying they are flying a 99 or a Metroliner (as Captain) and building turbine time----Ameriflight has a huge turnover rate because their pilots get into turbines quickly, build time quickly and are picked up by the airlines quickly---and the pay is as good as any regional plus, if you hang around for a couple of years, you will be getting typed in jets.
Ameriflight has the largest fleet of Metros in the world, they also have 99s, Lears, Sabreliners, and (Cessna single turbines--What the hell are they called?)--They are the biggest cargo contractor that UPS uses and UPS looks to them for big iron pilots!
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Frank N. O. on May 06, 2007, 03:44:25 PM
The only single-turbine Cessna I know is the turboprop Caravan/Grand Caravan that exist in both fixed gear and float-version. Designated C208(B?) I think although there was another smaller 208 that I'm pretty sure doesn't share parts with the 208 Caravan. (btw Jim if you were being ironic then sorry I missed it).

Velo: Best wishes for trying to go for your dream, that's what I'm only waiting for here (waiting for the new handicap car for my mom and the move to a new place to live. I can't do a thing before those ever increasing worries are gone, I'm just waiting for tomorrow to hear more about both subjects).

If I may ask, Jim: What kind of companies do you and Mary fly for where you can fly special missions (as I call it) instead of regular planned routes?

Frank
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: airtac on May 06, 2007, 09:46:14 PM
The only single-turbine Cessna I know is the turboprop Caravan/Grand Caravan that exist in both fixed gear and float-version. Designated C208(B?) I think although there was another smaller 208 that I'm pretty sure doesn't share parts with the 208 Caravan. (btw Jim if you were being ironic then sorry I missed it).

Velo: Best wishes for trying to go for your dream, that's what I'm only waiting for here (waiting for the new handicap car for my mom and the move to a new place to live. I can't do a thing before those ever increasing worries are gone, I'm just waiting for tomorrow to hear more about both subjects).

If I may ask, Jim: What kind of companies do you and Mary fly for where you can fly special missions (as I call it) instead of regular planned routes?

Frank
Frank,
Yes, it's a Caravan.........old brain, forgets names............ ::loony::
Regular planned routes?   Frank, there is no set schedule for fires---when a fire happens, firefighters (including FF aircraft) are dispatched to it just like if your house catches fire--the fire trucks are dispatched to it.
I work for a private company that contracts work from the US government----Mary works for the US government...........I'm a civilian, she's an official guvmint public servant-----I do it for the money >:D----she does it for the money, the glory, and the retirement benefits |:)\
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Baradium on May 07, 2007, 12:47:47 AM
I've sent a number of people to Ameriflight with the statement that they will be burning kerosene within 90 days and most have called me back within that period saying they are flying a 99 or a Metroliner (as Captain) and building turbine time----Ameriflight has a huge turnover rate because their pilots get into turbines quickly, build time quickly and are picked up by the airlines quickly---and the pay is as good as any regional plus, if you hang around for a couple of years, you will be getting typed in jets.
Ameriflight has the largest fleet of Metros in the world, they also have 99s, Lears, Sabreliners, and (Cessna single turbines--What the hell are they called?)--They are the biggest cargo contractor that UPS uses and UPS looks to them for big iron pilots!

Ameriflight is also all single pilot overnight freight dawg stuff... They are also the largest operator of BE-99s in the world.

I know a guy who works there and also does pilot training...  No thanks for me!     And unlike the regionals, commuting is specifically not allowed.  There is a reason for the huge turnover, and it's not just the amount of time you get...

www.airlinepilotcentral.com  has a good listing for them.  Current upgrade out of the Navajo is 5 months, unless you have the flight time, where you can start in the BE-99.
Quote
Hiring. New-hires start on Chieftains/Navajos. Training is 4-5 weeks. Flying: 60-70 hrs every month. Upgrade time to turbine (Be99) position is currently about 5 months; can be less depending on domicile. Pilots with 1800 TT and 350 multi can start on the Be99 as PIC. Typical day is about 3-4 hrs of flying M-F, they stay at the layover during the day.

That's the same amount of flight time I get, and I work half as many days and go home every night.  And by the time you have 1800TT, you have a decent shot at going to Mesa and being left seat in a turbine for a lot more pay.

Speaking of the pay... A first year BE-99 captain doesn't make any more than I can in a year.  Only difference is they are salaried and have to live in CA where the cost of living is higher.  And we aren't exactly top of the scale as far as "regional" pay.  That's the lowest pay for PIC on those aircraft that I've seen anywhere.  They are paying the single pilot captain what an F/O on the same aircraft would make at a regional.  My room mate's company up here is wanting to pay pilots more than double what Ameriflight pays the Navajo pilots (more than their B-1900 captains top out at!), and with them you get an autopilot and a company that tries to keep employees happy.  F/Os at Horizon make the same or better as the starting pay there when they start, and their pay rates top out much higher.

Our captains here are starting out with the ability to make more than you can top out at ameriflight if you stay there 20 years.

I'll be very surprised if UPS "looks" to them for anything these days.  UPS now requires heavy trans oceanic time as part of their minimums.  This was effective a month or so ago.  I'll bug the guy I know about it now... but I'm a bit skeptical there as far as UPS goes...  I've been under the impression that people had been going there and then to the regionals.


I don't see a listing for Caravans on their pay scale... but Caravan time is about worthless these days anyway if you ever want to get to an airline of any type.  Sure, it's nice if you want to fly Caravans, but multi turbine SIC is more valuable than single turbine or multi piston PIC in today's market.

YMMV, but I think there are better routes to take, especially if you have a family.  5 days a week working at night and spending days away from home?  If that's what you want...
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: TheSoccerMom on May 07, 2007, 01:03:47 AM
I've talked to lots of Amflite guys as we always park with their machines..  anyway, some speak highly of it and some not so highly..  one guy said he was very happy there after many years in aviation because he had a good home base, good pay and good mtx.  He said he had never had all 3 before in 30 years of flying, so he was staying for good.  He liked being home every day.

I hear a wide variety of opinions..  most of them good.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: TheSoccerMom on May 07, 2007, 01:16:20 AM
I work for a private company that contracts work from the US government----Mary works for the US government...........I'm a civilian, she's an official guvmint public servant-----I do it for the money >:D----she does it for the money, the glory, and the retirement benefits |:)\

Uh oh, I think Daddy Airtac's wife must have hidden his bottle of medicinal elixir...  he's starting to blur the past and present....  I USED to be a government puke...  ah yes, those were the good ole days..  at least until the MORONS I worked for stated, FLAT OUT, that they didn't "believe in maintenance".  I'd share the whole story with you, but, well, I really like Mike and Stef, and the FCC wouldn't be too happy with any of us if I said what I REALLY thought.   >:(

So.....  for the last 7 fire seasons, I, too, have been working for a private company that contracts to the government to supply a smokejumper "platform".  I have NO retirement, NO bennies, NO savings plan, none of that cushy stuff that does come with a govvie job...  BUT, I DO have a GREAT company with GREAT guys to work with, the pilots are GREAT guys, my boss is simply too good to be true (no kidding), AND....  we have the best maintenance I have ever run across.  I am SO much happier now than I was before...  fighting over trying to get broken planes fixed and being told by people who had ZERO expertise, they were "just fine" and "the last guy flew it".  Anyway, I was the ONLY pilot there who had NOT wrecked an airplane...  and I was glad as can be to get away from that place!!!!!     ;D

Yippee, yippee, yippeee....  that about sums it up.    ::bow::
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Baradium on May 07, 2007, 01:20:24 AM
I've talked to lots of Amflite guys as we always park with their machines..  anyway, some speak highly of it and some not so highly..  one guy said he was very happy there after many years in aviation because he had a good home base, good pay and good mtx.  He said he had never had all 3 before in 30 years of flying, so he was staying for good.  He liked being home every day.

I hear a wide variety of opinions..  most of them good.

That is a good thing to hear.   On this end all we get is guys who left and swear never to go back... but all I talk to for the most part is the guys who didn't want to stay there.  ;)

I still don't particularly agree with the "good pay" aspect though.  ;)    Their pay scales are some of the worst out there for the scheduled world.


I just noticed something else... you said he's home every day...  how long has he been there and what aircraft?   I got the impression that the typical week was mostly away from home with just the weekends to recover.

I've heard exactly three people say it wasn't too bad, and two of them are in the thread.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Baradium on May 07, 2007, 01:29:51 AM
I asked... I misunderstood how they work.

He's away from home a lot... but they actually do flying during the "day" and are home at night.


Basically, get up real early and fly somewhere, sit around waiting all day, fly back that night.  He indicated they can spend some nights away from home, but not too often.


Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: TheSoccerMom on May 07, 2007, 01:46:21 AM
I forget what plane this guy was on, but he was an older guy, had flown all his life, and was flat sick of always being gone and having bad mtx...  he said the company treated him great, he was out of Oakland or somewhere, they worked with him to make sure he got the base he wanted, and he said he made better $$ than anywhere else he had worked.  I didn't get into details because I just didn't really care, but he was trying to talk ME out of MY job, I just said Thanks but no thanks.

I have talked to guys who hated it too, but they were young and this guy was a lot more experienced, I just remember how highly he spoke of the company.

I don't retain much if it doesn't interest me much.   :) 
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: airtac on May 07, 2007, 02:16:05 AM

Ameriflight is also all single pilot overnight freight dawg stuff... They are also the largest operator of BE-99s in the world.

I know a guy who works there and also does pilot training...  No thanks for me!     And unlike the regionals, commuting is specifically not allowed.  There is a reason for the huge turnover, and it's not just the amount of time you get...

www.airlinepilotcentral.com  has a good listing for them.  Current upgrade out of the Navajo is 5 months, unless you have the flight time, where you can start in the BE-99.
Quote
Hiring. New-hires start on Chieftains/Navajos. Training is 4-5 weeks. Flying: 60-70 hrs every month. Upgrade time to turbine (Be99) position is currently about 5 months; can be less depending on domicile. Pilots with 1800 TT and 350 multi can start on the Be99 as PIC. Typical day is about 3-4 hrs of flying M-F, they stay at the layover during the day.

That's the same amount of flight time I get, and I work half as many days and go home every night.  And by the time you have 1800TT, you have a decent shot at going to Mesa and being left seat in a turbine for a lot more pay.

Speaking of the pay... A first year BE-99 captain doesn't make any more than I can in a year.  Only difference is they are salaried and have to live in CA where the cost of living is higher.  And we aren't exactly top of the scale as far as "regional" pay.  That's the lowest pay for PIC on those aircraft that I've seen anywhere.  They are paying the single pilot captain what an F/O on the same aircraft would make at a regional.  My room mate's company up here is wanting to pay pilots more than double what Ameriflight pays the Navajo pilots (more than their B-1900 captains top out at!), and with them you get an autopilot and a company that tries to keep employees happy.  F/Os at Horizon make the same or better as the starting pay there when they start, and their pay rates top out much higher.

Our captains here are starting out with the ability to make more than you can top out at ameriflight if you stay there 20 years.

I'll be very surprised if UPS "looks" to them for anything these days.  UPS now requires heavy trans oceanic time as part of their minimums.  This was effective a month or so ago.  I'll bug the guy I know about it now... but I'm a bit skeptical there as far as UPS goes...  I've been under the impression that people had been going there and then to the regionals.


I don't see a listing for Caravans on their pay scale... but Caravan time is about worthless these days anyway if you ever want to get to an airline of any type.  Sure, it's nice if you want to fly Caravans, but multi turbine SIC is more valuable than single turbine or multi piston PIC in today's market.

YMMV, but I think there are better routes to take, especially if you have a family.  5 days a week working at night and spending days away from home?  If that's what you want...

JUNIOR, you sure jump to conclusions about what I mean---I'm sure your route to "THE AIRLINES" is the absolute best way to go just like I'm sure you invented sex and clutch changes, however, it ain't the only way.

Perhaps because I've never been on the same quest (airlines) as you, I have a different viewpoint.  The couple of years I worked for Cal Air Charter (Ameriflight) was truly enlightening and I became a hot IFR stick which has served me well in subsequent jobs and serves me well to this day.
I will not debate this because it is a non-issue, this forum was meant to be a good natured vehicle for people to express their opinions and often divergent viewpoints so there is no reason to arrogantly jump all over my post.  I hope you live long enough to learn a little humility, if not respect for other people, when through real life experience they have come to different conclusions.

The statements I made came from EXPERIENCE--the people I have sent to Ameriflight accomplished what I stated and most, if not, all have moved on to other jobs, some to the majors, quite a few to regionals, some to corporate jobs, and some to UPS or other heavy freighters like Evergreen.

Gathering information from good sources and reading about it is great but it's not the same as actually experiencing life.  If you will look you will see my post simply said "I have sent a number of to Ameriflight" after which I stated the facts of their experience as related by them to me first hand---I was not conjecturing.

As far as being single pilot freight dogs (not dawgs) you bet your ass!!  It's a hell of a way to hone your skills and I've never heard anyone regret it.    As far as a career---I have never recommended it.   As far as pay---It stinks, but of course that's why I would never recommend it.

Any flight time is good experience, even if it doesn't count toward Baradium's goals so don't be so arrogant as to presume that your goals are everybody else's--thet are not.

Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: airtac on May 07, 2007, 02:22:54 AM
I work for a private company that contracts work from the US government----Mary works for the US government...........I'm a civilian, she's an official guvmint public servant-----I do it for the money >:D----she does it for the money, the glory, and the retirement benefits |:)\

Uh oh, I think Daddy Airtac's wife must have hidden his bottle of medicinal elixir...  he's starting to blur the past and present....  I USED to be a government puke...  ah yes, those were the good ole days..  at least until the MORONS I worked for stated, FLAT OUT, that they didn't "believe in maintenance".  I'd share the whole story with you, but, well, I really like Mike and Stef, and the FCC wouldn't be too happy with any of us if I said what I REALLY thought.   >:(

So.....  for the last 7 fire seasons, I, too, have been working for a private company that contracts to the government to supply a smokejumper "platform".  I have NO retirement, NO bennies, NO savings plan, none of that cushy stuff that does come with a govvie job...  BUT, I DO have a GREAT company with GREAT guys to work with, the pilots are GREAT guys, my boss is simply too good to be true (no kidding), AND....  we have the best maintenance I have ever run across.  I am SO much happier now than I was before...  fighting over trying to get broken planes fixed and being told by people who had ZERO expertise, they were "just fine" and "the last guy flew it".  Anyway, I was the ONLY pilot there who had NOT wrecked an airplane...  and I was glad as can be to get away from that place!!!!!     ;D

Yippee, yippee, yippeee....  that about sums it up.    ::bow::

Crap, I completely lost my head there---Forgot everything you told me ::loony::  Sorry about the insult ::banghead::
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: G-man on May 07, 2007, 02:47:18 AM

As far as being single pilot freight dogs (not dawgs) you bet your ass!!  It's a hell of a way to hone your skills and I've never heard anyone regret it.    As far as a career---I have never recommended it.   As far as pay---It stinks, but of course that's why I would never recommend it.


Have not really been following this thread till now, but I have something serious to say for once...   ::unbelieveable::   ::unbelieveable::   ::unbelieveable::

I have to agree with airtac on the principle issue he raised..Sometimes its better to "pay your dues", than get ahead too fast. I stayed instructing for many years, and still do so to this day, albeit, rarely these days. A wise old FAA inspector named Ray told me once---"One pays their dues, not because of what you get, but because of what you get from it, and what becomes of it". In the helicopter world, I have flown with pilots who have never flown alone in a helicopter......they seriously lack the ability to make decisions related to many aspects of flight, but the scary one is "weather". We all train endlessly to deal with equipment failures, but rarely train for weather emergencies. I would hazard a guess that 90% of helicopter crashes are wx related.

OK--lost my train of thought, but you get the general idea..... Pay your dues and you will learn more than you think.........
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Baradium on May 07, 2007, 02:51:22 AM
I forget what plane this guy was on, but he was an older guy, had flown all his life, and was flat sick of always being gone and having bad mtx...  he said the company treated him great, he was out of Oakland or somewhere, they worked with him to make sure he got the base he wanted, and he said he made better $$ than anywhere else he had worked.  I didn't get into details because I just didn't really care, but he was trying to talk ME out of MY job, I just said Thanks but no thanks.

That really is a big factor.  How a company treats you makes a world of difference in the experience.  I'd rather have less money and enjoy my job than get paid a ton to be unhappy all the time.  

Quote
I have talked to guys who hated it too, but they were young and this guy was a lot more experienced, I just remember how highly he spoke of the company.

"Experienced..." is that what they call it these days?

Quote
I don't retain much if it doesn't interest me much.   :) 

That explains a lot  <ducks>


Airtac, that's not what I meant at all.   I had no intention of offending you, but I hear a LOT of talk about this company and I'm not going to hide a differing viewpoint becuase you are the one who said something contrary.  I never meant to imply that I "knew" better.  REGARDLESS of how it actually came across.

In fact, the ONLY point I actually disagreed with you on was the UPS area and that's because of a change that took effect in APRIL of this year requiring heavy trans oceanic time.  IE, they want guys to go to Cathay or one of the other freight companies first becuase they CAN becuase so many people want to go there.

I'm  not trying to make assumptions based on what *my* goals are (which you are making some assumptions about), but based on what I understand *his* goals to be.   I wouldn't recommend MY company for him either, becuase he has a wife and kid and I doubt he wants to move them to Fairbanks or Anchorage.

I am sorry for offending you, but it was never any intention of mine.  I do realize that other people know better about some areas, and once more than one person said they'd heard good things I queried my friend there again and got more specifics.  *HE* actually does like it there, but it reminds me a lot of *this* company and I don't think either of them are the type of experience velojym is really interested in if he wants to fly corporate or for brown through the quickest way possible.  *THAT* part is my *opinion* and has NOTHING to do with MY goals.

Just because I'm young doesn't mean I don't respect you, and I'll continue to respect you whether you hate my guts or not.  Believe it or not, I put a lot of stock in your opinion, but I will offer what I've heard contradictory if I think it might be true, as that can make a big difference to someone's decisions.  The industry in all fronts has changed dramatically over the last year and a half.  A lot that was true when I was going through *my* training isn't even true now.

This is all I'll say on the matter, other than that I am SORRY.   I don't even like how I worded it myself now that I look through it again, but I can't change that other than to implore that how you took it is NOT what I MEANT.  And if meaning doesn't matter, than I've already lost anyway.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: airtac on May 07, 2007, 03:19:46 AM
I said what I wanted-------It's cool-----drop it 8)
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on May 07, 2007, 03:27:43 AM

Speaking of the pay... A first year BE-99 captain doesn't make any more than I can in a year.  Only difference is they are salaried and have to live in CA where the cost of living is higher.  And we aren't exactly top of the scale as far as "regional" pay.  That's the lowest pay for PIC on those aircraft that I've seen anywhere.  They are paying the single pilot captain what an F/O on the same aircraft would make at a regional. 

Not all regionals are the same...It HAS to be better than Mesaba, which starts their F/O's at $13,000.  That's less than minimum wage.

Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Baradium on May 07, 2007, 03:34:59 AM
I said what I wanted-------It's cool-----drop it 8)

Roger

re: Dawgs: 

http://www.cafepress.com/dreamlaunch/760441   

Just a reference to that little movement...
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Baradium on May 07, 2007, 04:03:41 AM

Speaking of the pay... A first year BE-99 captain doesn't make any more than I can in a year.  Only difference is they are salaried and have to live in CA where the cost of living is higher.  And we aren't exactly top of the scale as far as "regional" pay.  That's the lowest pay for PIC on those aircraft that I've seen anywhere.  They are paying the single pilot captain what an F/O on the same aircraft would make at a regional. 

Not all regionals are the same...It HAS to be better than Mesaba, which starts their F/O's at $13,000.  That's less than minimum wage.




Mesaba's pay scale says $21,600 guarantee for 1st year F/Os

$24 an hour with a 75 hour/ month guarantee.   You can work more than that and get a lot more money (IE, overtime days or just extra days). Some RJ guys are getting 100 hours a month (max allowed).  That translates into $28,800 a year if they can pull that off every month (max allowed is 100 hours a month and 1200 a year).  Assuming they pull off 1000 hours in the year instead it'd be $24,000.  They don't have comparable aircraft, but that's about standard for Beech 1900 pay as well.

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/mesaba.html



If you start with the BE-99 with Ameriflight you get around $26,000 flat out.    Navajo captains get around $23,700.

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/cargo/ameriflight.html


Great lakes is the one you're thinking about though.
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/great_lakes.html

$13,500 for a guarantee.  But apparently they have the 1400 hour exemption, most of their first year guys are still making $21,000.

Big Sky also has the exemption, 78 hour a month guarantee with $20 an hour (block)
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/big_sky.html

Guarantees as a pay guage just give you the minimum, you can always get more.  At my company the guarantee is 0.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: TheSoccerMom on May 07, 2007, 04:17:22 AM
Crap, I completely lost my head there---Forgot everything you told me ::loony::  Sorry about the insult ::banghead::

Ha ha, you are funny!  No worries, Mate!  To be honest (I'm going to whisper here so no one hears this), it makes my DAY when I fly into some base and people there still think I work for the Feds....  I know, I know, that is a childish response on my part, but I readily admit it!   ;D   Nothing does my heart more good, than to run into that and be able to say that they kicked me in the derriere so hard when I left, I STILL have the black-and-blue bootprint to prove it.   Wheee heeee!!!!   ;D

I can't actually write it here, but I did leave them with a TWO WORD phrase, and I'll give you one hint, it WASN'T "Thank You".    ::complaining:

And just to keep the record straight, I loved the people I worked with in the FS right up until I got above a certain pay scale.  The folks below that would, literally, DIE to save your home from burning.  We had crew bosses we would have dove over a cliff for.  But, the "persons" above that level seemed to come from some alien planet, and the rules didn't apply.  It was a pretty heart-breaking discovery for a young kid who came up from the bottom, but, Hey, everything works out.   ;)

There isn't a day that I am not thankful for the circuitous route I took...  a lot of things went screwy, but it is all experience, and if we're lucky, we get to keep on getting more.  If we're REALLY lucky, we get pink control locks and dirty jokes and full moon jobs on paracargo runs.   ::rofl::

 :-*
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: undatc on May 07, 2007, 04:55:43 AM
Crap, I completely lost my head there---Forgot everything you told me ::loony::  Sorry about the insult ::banghead::

Ha ha, you are funny!  No worries, Mate!  To be honest (I'm going to whisper here so no one hears this), it makes my DAY when I fly into some base and people there still think I work for the Feds....  I know, I know, that is a childish response on my part, but I readily admit it!   ;D   Nothing does my heart more good, than to run into that and be able to say that they kicked me in the derriere so hard when I left, I STILL have the black-and-blue bootprint to prove it.   Wheee heeee!!!!   ;D

I can't actually write it here, but I did leave them with a TWO WORD phrase, and I'll give you one hint, it WASN'T "Thank You".    ::complaining:

And just to keep the record straight, I loved the people I worked with in the FS right up until I got above a certain pay scale.  The folks below that would, literally, DIE to save your home from burning.  We had crew bosses we would have dove over a cliff for.  But, the "persons" above that level seemed to come from some alien planet, and the rules didn't apply.  It was a pretty heart-breaking discovery for a young kid who came up from the bottom, but, Hey, everything works out.   ;)

There isn't a day that I am not thankful for the circuitous route I took...  a lot of things went screwy, but it is all experience, and if we're lucky, we get to keep on getting more.  If we're REALLY lucky, we get pink control locks and dirty jokes and full moon jobs on paracargo runs.   ::rofl::

 :-*

So you're a contract flyer then?  For some reason I still thought you flew for the FS, i must have missed that some where once upon a time.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: airtac on May 07, 2007, 05:05:12 AM
I said what I wanted-------It's cool-----drop it 8)

Roger

re: Dawgs: 

http://www.cafepress.com/dreamlaunch/760441   

Just a reference to that little movement...
I stand updated--things change :-\
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Skygal on May 07, 2007, 07:32:46 PM
Airtac,
Do you remember what we talked about at Tomales ?  It was about how we managed to stay alive despite being young and brash and how we were so sure of ourselves.
I find I have to bite my tongue occasionally because if I don't it makes me look old and grumpy and we don't want that do we ::)
Amelia
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: airtac on May 07, 2007, 09:25:16 PM
Airtac,
Do you remember what we talked about at Tomales ?  It was about how we managed to stay alive despite being young and brash and how we were so sure of ourselves.
I find I have to bite my tongue occasionally because if I don't it makes me look old and grumpy and we don't want that do we ::)
Amelia
Yes Ma'am |:)\

You're right, I did appear that way and I shall attend to it----Wait,,,,,,did I ever see you attend to a like matter ::thinking::
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on May 08, 2007, 01:21:02 AM

Speaking of the pay... A first year BE-99 captain doesn't make any more than I can in a year.  Only difference is they are salaried and have to live in CA where the cost of living is higher.  And we aren't exactly top of the scale as far as "regional" pay.  That's the lowest pay for PIC on those aircraft that I've seen anywhere.  They are paying the single pilot captain what an F/O on the same aircraft would make at a regional. 

Not all regionals are the same...It HAS to be better than Mesaba, which starts their F/O's at $13,000.  That's less than minimum wage.




Mesaba's pay scale says $21,600 guarantee for 1st year F/Os

$24 an hour with a 75 hour/ month guarantee.   You can work more than that and get a lot more money (IE, overtime days or just extra days). Some RJ guys are getting 100 hours a month (max allowed).  That translates into $28,800 a year if they can pull that off every month (max allowed is 100 hours a month and 1200 a year).  Assuming they pull off 1000 hours in the year instead it'd be $24,000.  They don't have comparable aircraft, but that's about standard for Beech 1900 pay as well.

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/mesaba.html



If you start with the BE-99 with Ameriflight you get around $26,000 flat out.    Navajo captains get around $23,700.

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/cargo/ameriflight.html


Great lakes is the one you're thinking about though.
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/great_lakes.html

$13,500 for a guarantee.  But apparently they have the 1400 hour exemption, most of their first year guys are still making $21,000.

Big Sky also has the exemption, 78 hour a month guarantee with $20 an hour (block)
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/big_sky.html

Guarantees as a pay guage just give you the minimum, you can always get more.  At my company the guarantee is 0.

Must've been a Freudian slip on my part.   :D  The Red Tail is not the most well liked company in Minnesota.  From the outside looking in, it seems to be very poorly run, with new labor issues every six months.  It's probably no different than any other carrier, but we hear about it a lot more living in state.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: airtac on May 08, 2007, 01:30:19 PM
Airtac,
Do you remember what we talked about at Tomales ?  It was about how we managed to stay alive despite being young and brash and how we were so sure of ourselves.
I find I have to bite my tongue occasionally because if I don't it makes me look old and grumpy and we don't want that do we ::)
Amelia

I TOOK CARE OF IT!!! ::wave::
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: airtac on May 08, 2007, 02:04:37 PM


Airtac, that's not what I meant at all.   I had no intention of offending you, but I hear a LOT of talk about this company and I'm not going to hide a differing viewpoint becuase you are the one who said something contrary.  I never meant to imply that I "knew" better.  

I am sorry for offending you, but it was never any intention of mine.  I do realize that other people know better about some areas, and once more than one person said they'd heard good things I queried my friend there again and got more specifics.  *HE* actually does like it there, but it reminds me a lot of *this* company and I don't think either of them are the type of experience velojym is really interested in if he wants to fly corporate or for brown through the quickest way possible.  *THAT* part is my *opinion* and has NOTHING to do with MY goals.

Just because I'm young doesn't mean I don't respect you, and I'll continue to respect you whether you hate my guts or not.  Believe it or not, I put a lot of stock in your opinion, but I will offer what I've heard contradictory if I think it might be true, as that can make a big difference to someone's decisions.  The industry in all fronts has changed dramatically over the last year and a half.  A lot that was true when I was going through *my* training isn't even true now.

This is all I'll say on the matter, other than that I am SORRY.   I don't even like how I worded it myself now that I look through it again, but I can't change that other than to implore that how you took it is NOT what I MEANT.  And if meaning doesn't matter, than I've already lost anyway.
Hey Baradium,
I sent you a personal note but for the public record, I'd like to put this behind us and be friends---soooooooooo, let's have fun ;D    Jim
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: spacer on May 09, 2007, 02:38:24 AM
soooo.... I guess nobody knows anything about uvsc?
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: undatc on May 09, 2007, 05:44:17 AM
soooo.... I guess nobody knows anything about uvsc?


nah, who really cares about them!  Up root everything you own, sell the rest, and move to the great land of North Dakota and for only 120k (the average commercial degree here) you too can become a real live aviator!!!!

On a slightly more serious note, I know you were looking there for some kind of degree, but really if you don't want to go into big flying, ie a major or cooperate jets, you don't really need one.  Regionals and other smaller companies will be happy with you just having your licenses from what i hear.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Baradium on May 09, 2007, 12:26:17 PM
nah, who really cares about them!  Up root everything you own, sell the rest, and move to the great land of North Dakota and for only 120k (the average commercial degree here) you too can become a real live aviator!!!!

On a slightly more serious note, I know you were looking there for some kind of degree, but really if you don't want to go into big flying, ie a major or cooperate jets, you don't really need one.  Regionals and other smaller companies will be happy with you just having your licenses from what i hear.


That seems to be quite true these days.  It used to be important at regionals becuase they could afford to be picky.  Now they are so desperate that a pulse is one of their biggest concerns.   ::)

However, if you're going to do any type of scheduled service, don't get yourself locked in.  Majors are still able to find enough pilots to be picky (although not all of them care about a degree) and right *now* the unions at the majors are allowing their companies to get contracts that help the regionals keep their pay lower.  This might change if regionals start trying to compete to draw pilots from eachother... they've about lowered the bar as far as the FAA will allow them to without physically paying to train pilots themselves, so it is a possibility.


Oh, and if I havn't mentioned it somewhere else in this forum:  Do NOT under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES even consider going to GOJETS (also known as GO JET or GO JET ENTERPRISES etc) or Boston-Maine Airways.  Flying for either of those companies will get you blacklisted.



Airtac, it's all good.


I'm in Helena, MT presently, will continue on into Canada today, don't expect internet access again until I get to Fairbanks, although that doesn't mean there's no chances.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on May 09, 2007, 05:32:42 PM
soooo.... I guess nobody knows anything about uvsc?


nah, who really cares about them!  Up root everything you own, sell the rest, and move to the great land of North Dakota and for only 120k (the average commercial degree here) you too can become a real live aviator!!!!

On a slightly more serious note, I know you were looking there for some kind of degree, but really if you don't want to go into big flying, ie a major or cooperate jets, you don't really need one.  Regionals and other smaller companies will be happy with you just having your licenses from what i hear.

120K?!  Mine only cost about 80! 
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: undatc on May 09, 2007, 11:17:57 PM

120K?!  Mine only cost about 80! 

Thats what they are saying now, flight costs have gone way up in the last couple of years, and they are adding more flights into some courses.  Also the laptop fee has gone up by about 150 a semester too.  Fee's here are going through the roof, especially with the D I move  >:( >:D
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: spacer on May 11, 2007, 12:29:23 AM
Laptop fee?

I want the degree, with all the other educational goodies as well as the marketability. It'll take a couple years or so, and I don't know what the market will look like when I'm done. I know the pay isn't great at first, but beggars can't be choosers.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: undatc on May 11, 2007, 05:55:50 AM
Laptop fee?

I want the degree, with all the other educational goodies as well as the marketability. It'll take a couple years or so, and I don't know what the market will look like when I'm done. I know the pay isn't great at first, but beggars can't be choosers.


UND forces all of its aviation students to rent a laptop at $450 a semestor.  Do the math on that, figure 5 years at 450 you'll spend about $4,500 on it, and then at the end of it you can buy it for "market value" for about $1,200.  UND has caught a lot of flack for it, but its their way of sucking more money out of its students.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: spacer on May 11, 2007, 03:34:28 PM
Wow... must be *some* laptop.

I can get a pretty well spec'd one brand new for about that. geez.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Turbomallard on May 11, 2007, 07:15:33 PM
Having wasted waaay too much of my life on university technology committees while serving on the faculty here, I'm guessing that cost is more than just the machine and probably includes whatever site license fees you have for software (the big M) along with other things such as fees they're using to pay for wireless infrastructure, etc.   ::type::  Government funding for higher ed is not what it used to be, and we're having to find other ways to pay for things (my own institution lost 25% of our funding in five years... no raises or cost of living increases of any kind for over two years, high tuition hikes etc.). The only place worse to be than education is in the airline industry right now!  ::loony::

TM
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on May 11, 2007, 07:40:59 PM
Wow... must be *some* laptop.

I can get a pretty well spec'd one brand new for about that. geez.


I was a freshman the first year of that program.  We started out with crappy Dells, and then after a year switched to even crappier Gateways.  After we switched, Dell got really good at making computers.  The reason the fees are so high is because of all the programs UND has to buy, such as (at the time) Jeppesen's Flitestar, which was a really cool program, but we only used it for one class.  The most I used it was playing cribbage online with my girlfriend during class.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: undatc on May 11, 2007, 09:44:17 PM

I was a freshman the first year of that program.  We started out with crappy Dells, and then after a year switched to even crappier Gateways.  After we switched, Dell got really good at making computers.  The reason the fees are so high is because of all the programs UND has to buy, such as (at the time) Jeppesen's Flitestar, which was a really cool program, but we only used it for one class.  The most I used it was playing cribbage online with my girlfriend during class.

Yea, the laptop is completely worthless to me as an ATC major as there is no software for us on there.  They are "talking" about putting the radar sim on the laptops, but it would require us to dual boot them with linux, and Dell says they cant do that.  I brought my laptop to the head of the department, already running dual boot with several OS' on it.  Mainly the cost is for all the software as you've said.  They bought all this nifty stuff, but even commercial majors dont use it, as the instructors here make them do everything by hand anyway, so why have all the stuff and then not even be able to use it?

Aviation is UND's cash cow.  The former director for the ATC department was telling us a few weeks ago that aviation brings in over $35 million a year in pure profit that goes straight to the University, the aviation department by law is only able to keep something like 12 million a year in profit to update its stuff, so instead they stick us with more 'user fees'.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: spacer on May 13, 2007, 12:13:24 AM
Wow. I ran XP and Fedora Core on my last laptop (may TRON rest its soul), and it did pretty well. I guess it's a company thing with Dell, or an agreement with MicroShaft.

Have you tried the ATC feature on Flight Simulator X? I hear it's pretty good, though I wouldn't know much about that.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Baradium on May 13, 2007, 02:24:47 AM
No offense guys, but I'm not very impressed with UND the more I hear about how this stuff works there....

There's no reason for them to make you rent the laptop.  They *could* allow you to rent one or buy one, as they have to get the licenses for the programs anyway... really sounds like just an excuse to get the money.


Anyway, just got back today from driving the Alcan...  3200 or 3300 miles or some such in 4.5 days...  oh, and kinda accidentally bought a truck in Delta Junction...  blast... I knew better than to stop and talk to that guy.  At least it's only 90 miles away.   

Edit:  Not like a bought a new vehicle or anything.  $800 for a '69 IH travelette in good condition.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: undatc on May 13, 2007, 05:23:56 AM
Wow. I ran XP and Fedora Core on my last laptop (may TRON rest its soul), and it did pretty well. I guess it's a company thing with Dell, or an agreement with MicroShaft.

Have you tried the ATC feature on Flight Simulator X? I hear it's pretty good, though I wouldn't know much about that.


I want to try it, but casee spending 50+ bucks on a game that if i don't like the interface, is basicly of no use to me.


No offense guys, but I'm not very impressed with UND the more I hear about how this stuff works there....

There's no reason for them to make you rent the laptop.  They *could* allow you to rent one or buy one, as they have to get the licenses for the programs anyway... really sounds like just an excuse to get the money.



UND Aerospace does a lot of good things, they just have to support the rest of campus because the ND legislature wont.  Most of the time they do an extremely excellent job, and from the personal accounts of several people that have gone to other aviation colleges, this seems to be the best, and I KNOW its the best for ATC.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: spacer on May 13, 2007, 02:22:01 PM
FS9 is about $19 at Walmart right now, and the interface is whatever you make of it. It's also only a game if you treat it that way. Many folks use it as a tool to aid their training, and probably one of the least expensive tools out there.

As for schools... the more separation I can get from the government, the better. I spent 12 years in 'public' indoctrination kamps, and I'm not impressed. If my wife would allow it, I would homeschool Zoe, but will likely have to settle for a private school. Unfortunately, most private schools operate under the oppressive Prussian model, just like Ze Publik Skrewels.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on May 13, 2007, 02:42:28 PM
No offense guys, but I'm not very impressed with UND the more I hear about how this stuff works there....

There's no reason for them to make you rent the laptop.  They *could* allow you to rent one or buy one, as they have to get the licenses for the programs anyway... really sounds like just an excuse to get the money.


Anyway, just got back today from driving the Alcan...  3200 or 3300 miles or some such in 4.5 days...  oh, and kinda accidentally bought a truck in Delta Junction...  blast... I knew better than to stop and talk to that guy.  At least it's only 90 miles away.   

Edit:  Not like a bought a new vehicle or anything.  $800 for a '69 IH travelette in good condition.

You can use your own laptop, but UND discourages it because it won't have "their" programs.  They would want you to buy all the programs that you "need".  At least, this was the case a few years ago.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Baradium on May 13, 2007, 07:07:11 PM
You can use your own laptop, but UND discourages it because it won't have "their" programs.  They would want you to buy all the programs that you "need".  At least, this was the case a few years ago.

At least then you can get away with only buying programs if/as you need them...
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: undatc on May 13, 2007, 07:45:05 PM
I know now you have to rent it, no longer an option to use your own, as I wanted to use my own, so now I have 3 computers kicking around my room...
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: spacer on May 14, 2007, 08:43:43 PM
Ah, my original post may as well go into dev/null now.
I just learned that my old school is now offering a flight program. No messing around with getting paperwork sorted and sent, and it uses
the same flight school here that uvsc does, anyway. Oh, and tuition is about half as much, though the flight costs will obviously be about the same.
I'm going to test out of ground school if they'll let me, though... at least for the Private rating.
http://www.pulaskitech.edu/current_news/default.asp?ID=285
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: undatc on May 15, 2007, 02:03:53 AM
FS9 is about $19 at Walmart right now, and the interface is whatever you make of it. It's also only a game if you treat it that way. Many folks use it as a tool to aid their training, and probably one of the least expensive tools out there.

Sorry, I was thinking of FSX, which is about $50ish.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: spacer on May 15, 2007, 05:52:38 PM
FS9 is about $19 at Walmart right now, and the interface is whatever you make of it. It's also only a game if you treat it that way. Many folks use it as a tool to aid their training, and probably one of the least expensive tools out there.

Sorry, I was thinking of FSX, which is about $50ish.

It is, but as a learning tool, it can be *well* worth it.
Of course, if you can find someone who already has it, you can try it out before actually buying a copy. I don't think fs9 has an ATC function, but it's still a good sim on the flying side.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Fabo on May 16, 2007, 12:44:15 PM
I would suggest you to have a look at vatsim.net, its counterpart used more in Europe is frequently staffed by real-life ATCOs, so I would say it is not that bad experience. And you can practically use it for free, as you only need free ATC software emulating radar screen.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: undatc on May 16, 2007, 01:36:14 PM
I would suggest you to have a look at vatsim.net, its counterpart used more in Europe is frequently staffed by real-life ATCOs, so I would say it is not that bad experience. And you can practically use it for free, as you only need free ATC software emulating radar screen.

I've actually used vatsim, and although the software and interface is nice, the people using it aren't of the same quality.  Our professors discourage us from using it, as they dont use actual seperation standards (most of the time they just use visual seperation for IFR traffic which isn't good enough) and their phraseology is horriable for the most part.  I'm sure I'll probably get into it after I graduate in the fall, as that would be the only way I can practice till I get shipped to OKC.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on May 16, 2007, 04:34:09 PM
I would suggest you to have a look at vatsim.net, its counterpart used more in Europe is frequently staffed by real-life ATCOs, so I would say it is not that bad experience. And you can practically use it for free, as you only need free ATC software emulating radar screen.

I've actually used vatsim, and although the software and interface is nice, the people using it aren't of the same quality.  Our professors discourage us from using it, as they dont use actual seperation standards (most of the time they just use visual seperation for IFR traffic which isn't good enough) and their phraseology is horriable for the most part.  I'm sure I'll probably get into it after I graduate in the fall, as that would be the only way I can practice till I get shipped to OKC.

Will they let alums use the sims to stay current?  Or are you moving home for a while?
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Fabo on May 16, 2007, 06:52:38 PM
I would suggest you to have a look at vatsim.net, its counterpart used more in Europe is frequently staffed by real-life ATCOs, so I would say it is not that bad experience. And you can practically use it for free, as you only need free ATC software emulating radar screen.

I've actually used vatsim, and although the software and interface is nice, the people using it aren't of the same quality.  Our professors discourage us from using it, as they dont use actual seperation standards (most of the time they just use visual seperation for IFR traffic which isn't good enough) and their phraseology is horriable for the most part.  I'm sure I'll probably get into it after I graduate in the fall, as that would be the only way I can practice till I get shipped to OKC.

Well, it is true that I have almost no idea of VATSIM controllers quality, since quite all experience I ahve around the US is two uncontrolled flights, but we use quite very real-like procedures in IVAO-SK.. so you might also take a look at www.ivao.aero/us , I am sure they will be happy to have real*life ATCO between them (and it could actually get me to fly to America some time finally :) )
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Frank N. O. on May 16, 2007, 10:38:15 PM
I'm sure there are dedicated real-to-life ATC's out there but I don't know where since I've never flown online.

This discussions reminds me of the FS commercial with a guy in a pilot uniform asking for clearence at a FS airport and he gets it from a german mother that had to chase her kids out first and then she gave clearence to a virtual stuntpilot there as well and the commercial ends with the guy in the uniform being interrupted by another guy in a uniform saying: You know you're in a real aircraft right? And he replies: Yeah but this is cooler. I tried to find it online but I can't for some reason despite several attempts, maybe it was withdrawn?

Frank
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Fabo on May 17, 2007, 12:41:59 PM
I'm sure there are dedicated real-to-life ATC's out there but I don't know where since I've never flown online.

This discussions reminds me of the FS commercial with a guy in a pilot uniform asking for clearence at a FS airport and he gets it from a german mother that had to chase her kids out first and then she gave clearence to a virtual stuntpilot there as well and the commercial ends with the guy in the uniform being interrupted by another guy in a uniform saying: You know you're in a real aircraft right? And he replies: Yeah but this is cooler. I tried to find it online but I can't for some reason despite several attempts, maybe it was withdrawn?

Frank

http://youtube.com/watch?v=A4e0-CqeiuM (http://youtube.com/watch?v=A4e0-CqeiuM)

maaaany copies still spreading around :)
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: undatc on May 17, 2007, 12:42:49 PM
I'm sure there are dedicated real-to-life ATC's out there but I don't know where since I've never flown online.

This discussions reminds me of the FS commercial with a guy in a pilot uniform asking for clearence at a FS airport and he gets it from a german mother that had to chase her kids out first and then she gave clearence to a virtual stuntpilot there as well and the commercial ends with the guy in the uniform being interrupted by another guy in a uniform saying: You know you're in a real aircraft right? And he replies: Yeah but this is cooler. I tried to find it online but I can't for some reason despite several attempts, maybe it was withdrawn?

Frank

Sounds like an awesome commercial.

Well, it is true that I have almost no idea of VATSIM controllers quality, since quite all experience I ahve around the US is two uncontrolled flights, but we use quite very real-like procedures in IVAO-SK.. so you might also take a look at www.ivao.aero/us , I am sure they will be happy to have real*life ATCO between them (and it could actually get me to fly to America some time finally :) )

True, thou im not an atcer yet, just want to be.  Need to survive a few more classes and I'm done in December (aerospace law, airport planning and management, advanced tower and radar operations, oh yea, and geography of Canada.......)
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: undatc on May 17, 2007, 12:48:36 PM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=A4e0-CqeiuM (http://youtube.com/watch?v=A4e0-CqeiuM)

maaaany copies still spreading around :)

Great commercial, the whole time in thinking in my head, PHRASEOLOGY!!!!!!!!! ::banghead::


Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Fabo on May 17, 2007, 12:52:08 PM
Well, it is an commercial... you can expect such. But if it is like this on their network in real, I would rather take out an MG21 and shoot down those people - and dont even feel guilty  ::eek:: ::loony::
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: undatc on May 17, 2007, 02:03:41 PM
Well, it is an commercial... you can expect such. But if it is like this on their network in real, I would rather take out an MG21 and shoot down those people - and dont even feel guilty  ::eek:: ::loony::

I would probably pay to see that  ::rofl::
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: undatc on May 17, 2007, 02:06:23 PM

Will they let alums use the sims to stay current?  Or are you moving home for a while?

I plan on moving back to Seattle while I wait for my slot.  Cost of living for me at least will be a lot cheaper, and there are better jobs for me out there too.  If I stayed here, I'd most likely keep working for Papa Johns, and maybe pick something else up, but I wouldnt be able to actually make any money to live on.  Which I'll need when im in OKC as they only pay about 8 bucks an hour while youre down there.  But yes they do let you use the sims, I'll probably try to pop back for a bit before I go down if its for any real length of time.
Title: Re: uvsc?
Post by: Frank N. O. on May 17, 2007, 03:04:08 PM
Ah there it is! Thank you for posting it, I tried several different keywords but didn't find it. Oh man that's even crazier than I remembered it. Oh and you may fire when ready :D Heck I might jump into a F-14A and join you!  ::rofl::

I wonder if some people actually do scream like that in internet bars? I've never been in one although they do exist here.

Frank
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