Roost Air Lounge => General Discussion => Topic started by: Frank N. O. on April 05, 2007, 11:08:44 PM
Title: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: Frank N. O. on April 05, 2007, 11:08:44 PM
I just, reluctantly, heard someone called Armstrong and Getty on a comedy internet radio since no comedy was on appearently and they said a family was attacked by critical mass riders in San Francisco. Some looking up showed a little that it's some group of bike-riders that seem to make protest-rides all over the car-roads every friday. A caller said his grandmother had been herrassed by them to the point that she would wreck them with a broom out the window into their wheel. Wasn't San Francisco the city of love? And when did the Hells Angels get a pedal-bike group? This sounds insane so it's probably the show and wikipedia that's exagerating but I'd like to hear if any of this is true and if other cities have this problem. Btw, the official page mentions the van hit and ran a bike-riders but the obviously shocked lady on the phone said that the rider refused to give his name to the police and the bike allegedly under the car worked just fine when he rode off.
And here I thought danish people were nuts. I'm loosing interest in cars more and more, although I hope it's mainly in big cities there's this problem.
Frank
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: Thunder Eagle on April 06, 2007, 12:33:16 AM
Hey Frank,
I've never participated in Critical Mass but I've witnessed it. From a car, in fact, so I can understand the frustration it causes for car drivers. But, I'm a daily bicycle commuter (except for days when I drive to the airport! :)), so I also understand the viewpoint of the bicyclists. The idea is to raise awareness of bicycles on the city streets. Maybe it's different in Denmark, but here it's all too common for car drivers to assume they have more rights to use the road than bicyclists.
I don't know anything about the specific incidents you mentioned, but it doesn't really surprise me. Get a large group of people on the street advocating anything and someone's bound to get upset about it.
As for losing interest in cars, I'm with you on that! Getting around on a bike is so much more fun!
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: Thunder Eagle on April 06, 2007, 12:49:38 AM
Frank, I just found the story you're talking about. Scary stuff. Apparently in the case you mentioned, a group of cyclists surrounded a van after one allegedly got tapped by the van, and proceeded to bash the van from all sides, causing over $5000 worth of damage. Totally inexcusable behavior, and I hope semi-responsible cyclists like me (I occasionally run lights, but I never attack anyone) don't receive any backlash from this.
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on April 06, 2007, 02:48:43 PM
No doubt. As a former avid cyclist myself, I found many cars don't like sharing the road. In MN, bikes are supposed to get 3 feet from the edge of the pavement to ride on, but often when it's busy we don't get that much. I've often felt like a little vigilante justice would go a long way, but it wouldn't teach drivers anything, and it would make me look like the bad guy. I would hope that cooler heads prevail and the cyclists find other ways to earn the right to ride safely.
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: Panzerrat on April 06, 2007, 03:41:50 PM
While I realize that bikers have equal road rights as the GMC pick-up I'm in, I notice that a lot of the bikers don't seem to obey the road rules that they seem to so desperately want. It'll make me blow a gasket to be waiting for lights or to turn, just to get cut off by some damned bicyclist as he runs said light.
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: Frank N. O. on April 06, 2007, 03:46:47 PM
First off, I just noticed my title might be too generalizing, that was not at all my intention, I just tried to write a short title but I guess it got too short. I mainly just wanted to get the story confirmed and then generally hear about how the situation was.
In Denmark we got tons of bike-paths, even on highways between towns someplaces and if there's not an extension on the side of the tarmac on the inside of the car-lane stripe for bikes (marked with a wide stripe to be easily identified) then bikes are allowed to ride single-file on the inner side of the road unless specifically forbidden and that's only special-priority highways and freeways in general where there's also a minimum speedlimit and no stopping on the road. If you're driving in a car and there is a bike on the road then as long as that bike is driving normally to the right side of the tarmac and you can't safely overtake then it's the driver's duty to slow down and stay behind the bike until he/she can safely overtake. Sadly many overtake over lines indicating no overtaking and right in front of oncomming cars/trucks but that's the law and it works fine that way. Bikes are however not allowed to drive two or more side-by-side if they don't have a specific section on the road or a seperate bike-path. In Denmark many bike-riders drive over the crosswalk against the flow of traffic (2 illegal actions in one) and ignore red light, and some places there are even bicycle lights in the inner cities so the regulated intersection is made to ease bike and pedestrian traffic.
I'm incapable of riding a bike anymore, mainly due to my kneejoints not liking the movement-range (10 years ago I had a bike and had to crack my kneejoint into place before I could pedal, and with my broad shoulders I was heavily slowed down by even small wind-gusts, from 30 down to 18 kph). I don't mind people that enjoy bike-rides or ride a bike to shop, go to work, study etc. as long as they follow the rules (as long as the rules are made to ease traffic flow and safety which they are over here, and if the rules don't work, then get them changed). I do know that some people can't use a bike or a bus for transportation for one reason or another, maybe they need parcels or other that can't be taken with them in a bus or on a bike but I don't mind any kind of transportation as long as one behaves well and act safely. Some did make a calculation that bicycle-riders use more energy on a bike than in a car but things aren't that complicated. Electric cars powered by coal-plants also polute, and then there's the energy for manufacturing, but bicycles and electric cars are quieter and emit less polution inside the city and that both gives improvements in health for city-people. For inner-city traffic then cars shared by people to only need a vehicles once in a while and that can be parked in special centers of cities could also help as well as bike-lanes and bike-parking. In Denmark there is a service where you can join a kind of club and you can loan a car and park it again at certain places and that way one can use a car, but don't need to own it so several people can share one car so fewer cars owned, less parking-spaces needed. Denmark also had rental-bikes, special bikes you could get by using a deposit like a shopping-cart at the supermarket, and people could return them to several places in Copenhagen when they were done.
I need a car, but I know what I don't need also so all kinds of stuff that just add weight and requires more service, repairs and fuel will be taken out. I've driven in danish summers in a black car with black and dark blue interior and no AC and I survived so I don't need AC as long as I live here, and then I plan on getting a white or silver car. I've driven a car weighing 2300 lbs without powersteering and I had no problems with it and that system uses power and thus fuel both directly and indirectly (weight) and I could go on. There are things to do in the world one just has to think it through.
In Denmark they made a wooden test-house with re-designed structure and paper-insulation that didn't need a specific heating-system, in Denmark with frost! Solar-panels furthermore gave all electricity needed inside, now that's cool. I don't know how much energy is required to construct this compared to a normal house but considering how long a house lasts then I think it has to be negligable.
Btw, while I like driving I also like to get out and walk around in a forrest both to get a closer view and feel the sun, air, smell the trees and get some excercise as well. Great combination of experiences I think.
Frank
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: Thunder Eagle on April 06, 2007, 05:41:34 PM
Btw, while I like driving I also like to get out and walk around in a forrest both to get a closer view and feel the sun, air, smell the trees and get some excercise as well. Great combination of experiences I think.
Totally agree! In fact I agree with everything in your post. There are times when bikes are more practical than cars and vice versa. Then there are times when aircraft have them both beat! ;D A time and place for everything. Those who advocate one over the other in all situations are not thinking it through.
Sorry to hear that bike-riding is painful for you, but as you say there are plenty of other experiences to be had. By the way, I hear great things about biking in the Scandinavian countries. I hope to visit some day.
One final thought. In my experiences outside of the USA, the cars people generally choose to own are much more practical. I'm always struck by the scarcity of large SUVs and trucks in European cities.
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: Baradium on April 06, 2007, 05:57:12 PM
While I realize that bikers have equal road rights as the GMC pick-up I'm in, I notice that a lot of the bikers don't seem to obey the road rules that they seem to so desperately want. It'll make me blow a gasket to be waiting for lights or to turn, just to get cut off by some damned bicyclist as he runs said light.
I agree.
I'd venture that most bicyclists don't obey the road rules that they whine about. Even one of the bikers in this thread already admitted to it!
I notice that in groups they are always wanting to go side by side, which makes it harder to get around them.
I realize that drivers are 90% at fault, but those on the bikes share some of the blame as well.
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: Thunder Eagle on April 06, 2007, 07:48:26 PM
I'd venture that most bicyclists don't obey the road rules that they whine about. Even one of the bikers in this thread already admitted to it!
At the risk of sounding defensive, I don't whine unless someone has put me into a dangerous situation. Your assertion is probably true when it comes to Critical Mass, but I don't know. There is a movement called Vehicular Cycling, where the rules are 100% obeyed and you act like a car. My opinion is that's impractical and dangerous! I've personally had to ride in a pack of angry motorists trying to get around a vehicular cyclist who was taking the whole lane - those were some tense moments. Better to ride to the side, and believe it or not, run the occasional light or stop sign to put some distance between yourself and the cars! I see some riders run lights with traffic oncoming, purely to save time, but I don't do that because it's not safe.
Quote from: Baradium
I notice that in groups they are always wanting to go side by side, which makes it harder to get around them.
I realize that drivers are 90% at fault, but those on the bikes share some of the blame as well.
Very true! I like the Golden Rule and it applies to the road as well. Don't cause dangerous situations or undue inconvenience to other users of the road, regardless of the type of transport.
I do think that Critical Mass has a worthy goal, but unfortunately the anarchic nature of it undermines it completely.
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: Frank N. O. on April 06, 2007, 08:56:47 PM
In Denmark motorcycles are required by law to take the space of a car, meaning they're not allowed to fly thrue rows of cars and I like that rule since it's lethal as hell! I've been overtaken by a bike on a narrow road with one lane in each direction and a van comming towards us and when the bike was on my side he was also on the side of the van, and the engine-noise was so bad I took a swerve from the noise-level thrue the open window, and they just laughed. Then some years ago the "wonderful" European Union forced Denmark to allow special mopeds that would be allowed to drive 45 kph unlike normal mopeds that are only allowed to do 30kph and has to drive like a bicycle, however the EU-Scooters are only allowed to drive on the road like a motorcycle which again has to take space like a car, and you're allowed to drive a EU-scooter with only a car-license. Default danish city speedlimit is 50 kph with some roads allowing 60 or 70 and these mopeds are only allowed to do 45 kph, can you imagine how hard it is to overtake one of those due to the low speed difference? Then take the fact that they often drive 70-80 kph, and accelerate faster than a hot-hatch and if you overtake the ones that drive legally then at the red light they drive either on your lift or via the bicycle path and right out again in front of you on the car-lane. I've also seen then drive on my right side when waiting to turn left in an intersection with 10 cars behind me in the left-turn lane and when I started, he started too, ready to get smashed towards the curb seprating the ring-road and the bicycle-path, what the heck was he thinking I'd do? drive to the left lane to give him room or let him drive first when he was on my side, in a single-left-turn-lane? That's the kind of bad behaviour that gives others a bad name, in this also the whole European Union since such vehicles don't fit in danish traffic. Needless to say many use EU-scooters as transportation and of course they drive right on the right-hand edge when they use highways so again cars/trucks overtake them even if you're comming straight at them and the lanes are narrow and without space for bicycles ::loony:: ::banghead::
At least I can tell from here that there are level-headed people with a deeper understanding of life than what the media shows, thank you for a great and comforting talk and here's to the future |:)\ ::wave::
Frank
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: spacer on April 10, 2007, 07:24:19 AM
I've done a bit of cycling, a few Centuries, including Hotter 'n Hell in Wichita TX, and for a few years I rode my bike exclusively. I took a cue from the cycle messengers without buying in to their style entirely. I practiced a bastard mix of vehicular cycling and messenger-style riding, taking the lane or not depending on conditions, and I never whined about cars not following the 'rules' of the road. Hell, with my philosophy I'd rather curse the socialist 'planners' who come up with some of the idiotic traffic patterns around here (yeah, I'm familiar with a bunch of their reasoning... just don't always agree with it) than the folks who are merely trying to deal with 'em. I don't have a lot of patience for clueless drivers, nor do I have much for some of my fellow cyclists, who can be rather aggressive and stubborn, 'taking the lane' on a 55mph blacktop when they could easily have made room for faster cars. Yeah, we were usually cruising at a little over 30mph on the flats (paceline), but if I were in the car, I'd much rather be doing the 55.
The bicycle is a beautiful thing, just as the automobile and airplane are, regardless of size or intended use. Assholes are assholes, no matter what they drive... like the King Air pilot doing a run-up directly in front of where I was checking the tanks on a Cessna single.
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: TheSoccerMom on April 10, 2007, 06:39:51 PM
The bicycle is a beautiful thing, just as the automobile and airplane are, regardless of size or intended use. Assholes are assholes, no matter what they drive... like the King Air pilot doing a run-up directly in front of where I was checking the tanks on a Cessna single.
That's IT, in a nutshell!! Exactly.
I just heard (on the radio news) the woman in the van, which sustained $5400 worth of damage at the hands of the cyclists, and also a woman cyclist who said she saw the van hit a biker (who was not hurt, and did not file a police report). The woman driver was crying, and sounded quite terrified, and said she had no idea why she was being attacked; just that glass was suddenly flying in on the kids. The witness claims the bikers had a right to chase the van and "confront" the woman. It sounds like a major misunderstanding, which turned into a violent and stupid confrontation. I'm sure the 5 kids in the van will never forget their nice trip to the city.....
I think people feel they somehow have a right to be rude! I don't get it... when I am driving, I know what it feels like to be on that bike on a narrow road, and when I am on my bike, I would never pull out in front of cars just to prove a point about owning the road.
It seems basic to me.... and yes, the same traits are there with us as pilots.... there are TWO small airports near here that we have used for our spring training for years, and guess what -- because of ONE rude fire pilot, one is off-limits to us now ("FOREVER!" was how it was stated), and the 2nd is wavering closely behind. There's just no reason for it!!!! >:(
Cranky Old Mom
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: tundra_flier on April 10, 2007, 08:12:39 PM
The fairbanks area is blessed with lots of bike paths all through town and along most of the highways near town. Unfortunately, they tend to get used by guys on ATV's as much or more than bikes. It always scares me when I'm driving at 45mph and a 4 wheeler passes me on the bike path! What if i'd been biking and that thing wipped around a blind corner ::eek::
On the other hand, there just isn't a place for the 4 wheelers. They're not allowed on the roads or bike paths. And I admit they'ed be handy for a short run to the store, and most probably use less gas than any car. And I really don't have a problem with them using the bike paths, as long as they'd just do it at bike speeds. The paths are also used by pedestrians too after all.
Now those blasted little 2 cycle scooters that use the bike paths I have no sympathy at all for. Those obnoxious little things should be banned completely! ::rambo::
Phil ::cowboy::
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: spacer on April 11, 2007, 04:09:56 AM
Oh, yeah. Our bike trails on the river are infested with fat people walking shoulder-to-shoulder, the same formations traveled on Segways, and late at night, crotch rockets racing at who-knows-what kinda speeds. I've been sorely tempted to do some really antisocial stuff...
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: undatc on April 11, 2007, 04:22:13 AM
Oh, yeah. Our bike trails on the river are infested with fat people walking shoulder-to-shoulder, the same formations traveled on Segways, and late at night, crotch rockets racing at who-knows-what kinda speeds. I've been sorely tempted to do some really antisocial stuff...
Crotch Rockets on walking trails? Wow they're asking for a death sentence. I just got one, and I stay the h*** away from cars and trucks and bicycles and anything else that may want to tangle. I have no intentions of making use of that little heart on my drivers license.
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: undatc on April 12, 2007, 12:06:37 AM
I'm going to complain here a bit. Bicycles do not belong on the road. They belong on the shoulders, or in bike lanes. Its suicide to think the a two wheeled bike can complete with a 5000+ pound car. Case in point, today going to class, I was going down university about 30mph, this bike whips out in front of me and rides in the middle of the lane! Not only did he not use the bike lane (there is about a 5 foot lane on university ave for bikes only) but he slowed down traffic and could have possibly cause an accident. Its completely unacceptable for bikes to take over a road, the road was built for auto traffic, not bicycles.
I remember taking bicycle safety class as a kid, bicycles do not have the right of way on a road, cars do. Bikes are always to yield to auto traffic and remain clear of traffic lanes. I'm all for sharing the road, but taking an entire lane is unacceptable.
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: spacer on April 12, 2007, 06:40:27 AM
Negative. In most states, if not all, bicyclists have the same rights and responsibilities. You expect a cyclist to ride on a sidewalk at 20mph or so, with shoppers walking around laden with packages, walking out of storefronts with no clearance? I'll tell the two wheeled dickheads the same as the four wheeled ones. Share the road.
I'll take the road, thank you. If a motorist has enough of a problem with that to threaten me with their vehicle (a deadly weapon), I have a good response for that... a rather loud and accurate one. I've little patience for assholes regardless of how much steel surrounds their overfed asses, or how colorful their spandex undies. (Yeah, I have some of that, too... )
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: tundra_flier on April 12, 2007, 07:13:12 AM
The issue of bikes vs Cars vs pedestrians is all about common curtesy and respect for others. As a frequent bike rider (at least in the summer) I use the sidewalk, bike path, road shoulder or street lane as appropriate. For example, along a busy, fast road I'll use the bike path if available, if not then the sidewalk. But if there's a lot of pedestrian traffic on the sidewalk, then it's the shoulder. When I'm down town, where there's no shoulder and small busy sidewalks I use the street lanes, since the speed limit is only 20mph I can pretty much keep up with traffic between lights. Heck, I don't even mind the 4 wheelers on the bike paths when they travel at bike speeds.
But what can I say to the motorist who yells at me for riding on the 6 foot (2m) wide shoulder when there's a bike path? He didn't give me time to explain that the bike path had 4inch (10cm) wide cracks in it and my tires were only 20mm. ::loony:: ::banghead::
Phil
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: airtac on April 12, 2007, 03:29:51 PM
Hey, I concur that there are jerks on bikes and jerks in cars--I alternately surround my overfed butt with a huge SUV and cram it into colorful spandex (no pictures please ::eek::) and I've been assaulted by idiots on both sides with curses and lots of single digit hand signals----I do not know if there is an answer to the problem of the incompatibility of bikes and cars, I just try to grin and remember that the other person is only human like me, subject to the same biases and perceptions that guide my actions. When a car swerves at my bike or a bike cuts off my car I try real hard to remember that the other person might not know they have offended me and that ::bow:: I AM THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON ON THE PLANET ::bow:: and my rights, privileges, liberties and space should never be infringed upon by some mere human who mistakenly imagines him or herself as ::bow:: THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON ON THE PLANET ::bow:: Sometimes I have to try REEEEAAAAL HARD !!! ::banghead:: ::complaining: ::rambo::
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: TheSoccerMom on April 12, 2007, 09:12:27 PM
Heyyyyy......... do you wear that spiffy Spandex while you're air attackin'?!? Is that why your voice sounds different sometimes?!? ::whistle::
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: airtac on April 13, 2007, 04:14:31 AM
Heyyyyy......... do you wear that spiffy Spandex while you're air attackin'?!? Is that why your voice sounds different sometimes?!? ::whistle:: [/quote NAW, that's just when I buy the wrong size pantyhose ::)
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on April 13, 2007, 04:16:29 PM
Are the bikes jumping out in front of everyone trying to make a left-hand turn? That's the correct way to do it, you know. Slide through the traffic lane to make a left onto another road. When I do it, I always make sure it's clear behind me, both with the mirror on my helmet and by looking over my shoulder.
Because of their nature, bikes are protected on the road. Some choose to take advantage of the rules, so everyone needs to watch out for them. If a bike makes you slow down from 40 to 20 for a few seconds, are you going to arrive at your destination any later? Chill out and enjoy the butt in front of you for a few seconds. ;)
I'm not saying that bikes are always in the right, but there are situations when bikes simply can't stay on the shoulder (like when there isn't one. Been on a little used country road lately?) and need the lane.
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: spacer on April 13, 2007, 09:34:36 PM
Quote
I'm not saying that bikes are always in the right, but there are situations when bikes simply can't stay on the shoulder (like when there isn't one. Been on a little used country road lately?) and need the lane.
In Arkansas, the same boob in the pickup who rolls down his window to cuss the cyclists is the one who uses the bike lane to dispose of his empty beer bottles. A lot of debris gets moved to the right, and my 23mm wide Axial Pro tires aren't suited to riding in that sort of stuff. Hell, a lot more stout tires meet their end in road debris, so the best place to ride is in the clear strip made by the cars' right tires. I move over when I need to, but don't expect me to wallow around in the car drivers' dumping field just because I'm on a bike. A couple years ago, a driver blew through a stop sign and ran down a doctor who happens to be in my riding club. The driver claimed he'd always run the stop sign before, and that he didn't see the brightly colored (Tour team outfit... the cyclist equivalent of having a NASCAR racing number on your car) cyclist at all. So, he was so used to blowing through the intersection, which is a blind one, and wasn't even watching. The guy on the bike pulled through, but the driver is still pretty disturbed by it. Oh, yeah. The car driver is also a cyclist.
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: Baradium on April 14, 2007, 10:04:58 PM
How is "I always run that stopsign" a good excuse and not just more self incrimination?
That's a pretty blatant disregard and traffic laws and safety.
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: spacer on April 15, 2007, 08:06:54 AM
How is "I always run that stopsign" a good excuse and not just more self incrimination?
That's a pretty blatant disregard and traffic laws and safety.
Hey, there's no accountin' for intelligence. An old lady backed into me from her son's driveway once. I saw her backing, so I yelled. She stopped. I stopped yelling, thinking she'd stay stopped, but I eased over to the opposite side of the road anyway. As soon as I stopped yelling, she hit the gas again, clipping me in the rear wheel. Her son saw the whole thing, and got on my case for thinkin' that an 89 year-old woman could possibly see a cyclist from inside a Suburban. His face turned a lovely shade of red when he got the $220 bill for the wheel. Lucky for him I hadn't upgraded to Ksyriums yet...
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on April 16, 2007, 09:17:34 PM
How is "I always run that stopsign" a good excuse and not just more self incrimination?
That's a pretty blatant disregard and traffic laws and safety.
Hey, there's no accountin' for intelligence. An old lady backed into me from her son's driveway once. I saw her backing, so I yelled. She stopped. I stopped yelling, thinking she'd stay stopped, but I eased over to the opposite side of the road anyway. As soon as I stopped yelling, she hit the gas again, clipping me in the rear wheel. Her son saw the whole thing, and got on my case for thinkin' that an 89 year-old woman could possibly see a cyclist from inside a Suburban. His face turned a lovely shade of red when he got the $220 bill for the wheel. Lucky for him I hadn't upgraded to Ksyriums yet...
My question to his lawyer would be, "Why is she driving the Suburban if she can't see out of it?"
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: spacer on April 16, 2007, 10:20:56 PM
I'm figuring that, at her age, she was a bit stiff and didn't want to trouble herself with craning her neck around to check for traffic.
Title: Re: Bike-riders attacking cars?
Post by: tundra_flier on April 16, 2007, 11:28:03 PM
On a side note I took my dog out Bike-joring last night! All kinds of new fun for both of us. Especially when she stopped suddenly to say hello to another dog. ::eek::
