Roost Air Lounge => The Classroom => Topic started by: AirtransRecon on January 03, 2007, 03:57:46 AM
Title: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: AirtransRecon on January 03, 2007, 03:57:46 AM
Some of you may know that my current plan of action in the aviation world is to finish my PPL which is of course always sep one. Steps two three and four are what this question has to do with. I'm the adventures type and have been considering several ways of getting myself to the corporate pilot seat that I want to fly from the rest of my life and after alot of thinking, debating, pondering, balancing I've found that I don't know exactly which would be the best method of pursuing this. Would it be wise of me to consider an Academy such as Delta/Comm Air or Embry (if they're still in the biz considering the damage to their planes and facilities) and getting my tickets from there, or alternatively, try to get my commercial, instrument, multi-engine licenses by simply FBOing it or going to where aviation work may be and building the time and hours as I can in one varying capacity or the other, bush flying or ground crewing. I'm 24 and already have a college degree so that's one thing I don't have to back burner for later and can pour myself academically at least into flying. What would you all suggest, or how did you get to where you are if flying for a living.
Any help to point me along the way would help.
KW
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: Baradium on January 03, 2007, 05:18:21 AM
FBOs will take longer and could end up more expensive, but can lead to connections, a good thing if looking for corporate.
Some corporate flight departments love it if pilots also have an A&P since that means you can fix an aircraft "in the field" as well.
You'll still need to build time after the ratings. Still think a regional will be your best bet to build the hours.
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: AirtransRecon on January 03, 2007, 08:45:32 AM
I tend to sway to that line of thought. Work FBO while pushing through the Private then off to a school I go, along with a large loan to deal with later.
KW
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: Baradium on January 03, 2007, 10:49:19 AM
I tend to sway to that line of thought. Work FBO while pushing through the Private then off to a school I go, along with a large loan to deal with later.
KW
If you're already well on your way with a private, this is a good idea (wouldn't want to have to start all over to meet the 141 regs... but if you aren't you might consider doing it all that way.
If you don't have one already, a 4 year degree comes in really handy. Corporations will probobly prefer a degree, and many majors require one. I know you are wanting to do corporate right now, but it's good to keep as many options open as possible IMO. Of course, some smaller airlines may not see a lack of a degree as a negative because it just means it'll take you at least 5 years before you could leave to a major because you'd need to get a degree first.
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: AirtransRecon on January 03, 2007, 01:38:15 PM
Thankfully the four year degree has already been taken care of. I hold a Bachelor's in Sociology with a minor in political science. Corporate flight is the ultimate long term goal, I'd like to do a variety of flying in between, ferry work, maybe the CFI route for a few years or so, regional is something I'm certainly open to, not merely for the hours but for the experience that comes from hopping. From what I gather the most important thing is meeting people, getting connections and keeping up with them. Certainly an FBO gig to start would help that out.
KW
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: AirtransRecon on January 03, 2007, 02:56:29 PM
So does anyone have any info on good student loans available and where to get 'em?
KW
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: undatc on January 03, 2007, 08:39:52 PM
I do all mine thhrough my rich uncle www.myrichuncle.com Interest rates arent to bad i guess, my one loan is at like 8.6 on 20 years for 22k. They are private loans, and send you a check you can put in your bank account. I also am using Sallie Mae for a couple of loans. Though I'm not sure either one of these will loan you money if youre not actually in a college.
Something you may consider. I know you already have a bachalor degree. However from the coperate pilots that come and talk to us, business's arent really looking for full time pilots. Most of the guys that want to be that type of pilot at UND go for an Aviation Management degree. Its actually degree out of hte business school, not the aerospace school. You get all of your ratings, up to CF double I if you want, but you also get a business degree. This makes you more attractive to a company in that, they can put you to use doing something. If youre considering this, im sure your current degree will transfer many if not all of the credits making your time here very short. And if you get your private on the outside, you wont have to take a full private course here, you'd take 105 or 112, which is only about 12 flights. I know guys that come in with a private and in a year and a half they have all their ratings and are out.
In addition to that, becuase UND is so big, we have a lot of connections that smaller FBO's dont have. Pennical, Mesaba, Horizion, America West, Sky West, and all kinds of other companes come to us to hire. I know Pennical comes out every December, and picks up about 40-50 new first officers every year. Horizion came out last April and hired 150 guys. Something also I think that helps guys here is the life. You as a pilot live aviation from the time you begin till you end. You have to study for stage checks, you have to know your stuff. All the professors here either were Airliner captains, stunt pilots, or controllers. Severl have PhD in aerospace topics, and one guy, (probably the smartest guy ive ever met) has teo PhD's one in aerospace physics, and the other in aerospace engineering. Geting your stuff out of a FBO, it may be easy for you to slack off, not study, scrape by. You may also have a hard time finding someone that actually knows what they are doing.
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: G-man on January 04, 2007, 06:48:15 AM
5 yaers ago i culdnt eevn splel helecoptr polit, now i r wun.
Justas weel i dint wunt ta fli corprate.......
srroy, culdnt rsist...
G-man
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: fireflyr on January 04, 2007, 04:05:32 PM
HMMM--- Just remembered I haven't seen my ex-wife's family in a while. ::rambo::
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: AirtransRecon on January 04, 2007, 06:35:21 PM
Having delved a little deeper I've decided against DCA. Lot's of pony show at that academy with an incredibly hefty price tag. Considering ATP now, seems like they have a top notch outfit at work, Lots of multi-engine time. This means I'll have to go all out and rack up 80 hours instead of just 40 for the PL before applying but considering the benefits, it doesn't seem like a bad idea.
KW
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on January 04, 2007, 06:56:40 PM
More experience is never bad.
We use Pilot Finance to fund students. Don't know if it would be available for a school like ATP, but it's worth a look. www.pilotfinance.com
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: Baradium on January 04, 2007, 10:43:41 PM
We have a couple of guys here who went to Pan Am. One who went to Embry, some others represented. I went to MTSU as I believe I've said previously.
There are a lot of options out there.
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: chuckar101 on January 05, 2007, 06:47:10 PM
ATP is a good choice. I'm currently attending, doing the private program and start their career on the 15th. So far I believe it's a top notch program and if you want to start flying and getting paid to do it, it's definately a very quick option. One thing is that it is extremely intense, avition almost 24 hours a day. And the whole loan thing, ATP ahs a link to Sallie Mae on their website. That's where I got my loan and it was actually really easy to get. Either way good luck on the choice I know its a tough one.
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: AirtransRecon on January 06, 2007, 02:20:06 AM
Which ATP field are you operating out of, we might actually be pretty close to each other.
KW
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: chuckar101 on January 06, 2007, 08:10:00 PM
I attend the Phoenix location. It's a nice facility. Have three buliding to study in. The airport is an old airforce base so we have three huge runways. And its an overall good environment to fly at, other then all the silver state whirly birds flying around ;D. Where you looking at.
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: AirtransRecon on January 07, 2007, 01:59:10 AM
Atlanta, Jacksonville, or somewhere else in Florida. I think they have an operation that offers the Airline course at Daytona, if so, then probably there.
KW
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: chuckar101 on January 07, 2007, 05:38:36 AM
Sounds fun, if you start soon might see yah when I go on my cross countries. Either way good luck.
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: stinson6 on January 08, 2007, 08:23:07 PM
Hello all. This is my first post here and sounds like I'm a little older than most on this subject. I have been flying since 1987. I have friends who fly commercially for UPS, American, SW, corporate, even Canyon runners. I've done my share of smaller comm gigs too. So here goes my 2 cents. If you have a PPL you should go to a 41 school for your Instrument, Comm and CFI. When you take your Instrument written turn right around and take the CFII written (same test). Save your money now and don't get the multi unless it's in the package. After this, get a CFI gig. Remember, most schools will not allow you to instruct in Mult until you have 250 hours of instructing; due to liability insurance. Once you get in the neighborhood 750 hours then get your Multi CFI. Now you can spend money on multi time if you're not getting enough with CFI thing. When you end up with 1000 hours then you will be in the hiring zone for corporate aircraft (you'll need about 125 hours multi so anything over 750 with the 125 multi will be close). You will waste alot of money on so called hiring preferences with the big schools if your goal is corporate. The reason I say CFI route is corporate aviation is 90% who you know and being in the right place at the right time. My best friend flew Lear 45's, upgraded to G-200 then the G-IV with his company. His co-pilots were hired exclusively from word of mouth, friends and friends of friends-pretty standard practice unless your wanting huge companies like 3m etc... I hope this helps. Good luck. Now here is the counterpoint to corporate. First the positives: The equipment is without equal, it's ever changing with your destinations (airline is very standard and can be boring flying the same route for 90 days or as long as you bid that route...), pay is pretty good when you are a captain; 70-100 Lear, Citation, etc.., 100-170 for G-IV, Global express, etc... Now the negative: To put it bluntly, you are the "help." No matter how you slice it you are their "bitch." Sorry to put it that way but there it is. How blatant is largely who you work for. My buddy works for a great guy who expects him to have the jet ready at a moments notice; catering, rental cars, etc... but isn't too "upity." He has worked for other however that get out of the car and walk to the jet without even so much as a hello; expects his bags to be placed in the jet and when he is situated with his seat expects them (captain or co-pilot to ask, 'what would you like to drink?" before start up). You are also at their whim. Remember, its their airplane so when the Boss wants to go to Aspen for Christmas and you are the pilot guess where you get to go? My buddy's boss will pay for him to fly back commercially if his trips are for holidays... Goood luck.
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: fireflyr on January 09, 2007, 04:27:43 AM
Welcome, good post! ::wave:: Been the "bitch" for a couple of owners--OOPS--I mean employers, don't want to go back. Young folks in the business are better off going to a large flight department or driving bus (airlines) airplanes.
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: undatc on January 09, 2007, 04:50:05 AM
Hello all. This is my first post here and sounds like I'm a little older than most on this subject. I have been flying since 1987. I have friends who fly commercially for UPS, American, SW, corporate, even Canyon runners. I've done my share of smaller comm gigs too. So here goes my 2 cents. If you have a PPL you should go to a 41 school for your Instrument, Comm and CFI. When you take your Instrument written turn right around and take the CFII written (same test). Save your money now and don't get the multi unless it's in the package. After this, get a CFI gig. Remember, most schools will not allow you to instruct in Mult until you have 250 hours of instructing; due to liability insurance. Once you get in the neighborhood 750 hours then get your Multi CFI. Now you can spend money on multi time if you're not getting enough with CFI thing. When you end up with 1000 hours then you will be in the hiring zone for corporate aircraft (you'll need about 125 hours multi so anything over 750 with the 125 multi will be close). You will waste alot of money on so called hiring preferences with the big schools if your goal is corporate. The reason I say CFI route is corporate aviation is 90% who you know and being in the right place at the right time. My best friend flew Lear 45's, upgraded to G-200 then the G-IV with his company. His co-pilots were hired exclusively from word of mouth, friends and friends of friends-pretty standard practice unless your wanting huge companies like 3m etc... I hope this helps. Good luck. Now here is the counterpoint to corporate. First the positives: The equipment is without equal, it's ever changing with your destinations (airline is very standard and can be boring flying the same route for 90 days or as long as you bid that route...), pay is pretty good when you are a captain; 70-100 Lear, Citation, etc.., 100-170 for G-IV, Global express, etc... Now the negative: To put it bluntly, you are the "help." No matter how you slice it you are their "bitch." Sorry to put it that way but there it is. How blatant is largely who you work for. My buddy works for a great guy who expects him to have the jet ready at a moments notice; catering, rental cars, etc... but isn't too "upity." He has worked for other however that get out of the car and walk to the jet without even so much as a hello; expects his bags to be placed in the jet and when he is situated with his seat expects them (captain or co-pilot to ask, 'what would you like to drink?" before start up). You are also at their whim. Remember, its their airplane so when the Boss wants to go to Aspen for Christmas and you are the pilot guess where you get to go? My buddy's boss will pay for him to fly back commercially if his trips are for holidays... Goood luck.
Good deal. however take it with a grain of salt. When i was origionally a commercial major, i want to fly coperate for this reason. I liked the fact i never knew when, or where i was going. It the spirit of adventure. If your boss wants to go to the Bahama's for the weekend, guess where you get to hang out, on his dime not yours. True, if your a family guy, or if you have a serious relationship, probably not for you, but when your 25 or so, who cares? Go see some places, experience the world. With a few thousand hours of time, most majors will pick you up no problem.
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: TheSoccerMom on January 09, 2007, 10:24:31 PM
One drawback is, LOTS of bosses DON'T need to go to the Bahamas, or Aspen, or Jackson Hole.... the job will take you to much less lovely spots.... :-\
Don't get me wrong, a job is a job, and I have always been happy to have one, especially flying, but I did work for one (corporate) place where the biggest priority was making sure that when you exited the stunningly gorgeous aircraft, you wiped your dusty footprints off the special Cordovan-leather steps on the airstair door, because when the bigwigs came back, they did NOT want to see a speck of dust on the airplane..... it wasn't about flying, it was more like babysitting....
So, even though it all falls under the category of "flying", to me, some jobs are just more worthwhile and rewarding. Now when I hear the comments about "Where's the ice bucket?" and "Aren't there any cold drinks?" and "Which way to the lavatory?", I can laugh like hell because they're all coming from exhausted guys and gals who were up all night digging fireline and who are so filthy that all I can see is their white teeth grinning through the soot as they give me good-natured grief. ::loony::
I know, any flying job is good, right? But, some are more "good" than others, if you ask me.
Just my 2 cents' worth........ 8)
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: fireflyr on January 10, 2007, 02:41:58 PM
Exactly right Soccermom, |:)\ I've spent many hours exploring the FBO at exotic places such as Bakersfield CA or Wells NV, looking for something to eat (like a Rels hot sandwich ::sick::) or just trying to take a nap on a wooden bench while the boss was at a meeting ::knockedout:: I never told my non-flying friends about that, I just let them think it was all fun and games ::whistle::
And since when does a smoke jumper ( ::loony:: these people JUMP OUT of airplanes ::loony::) call the crapper a "lavatory"???
Title: Re: $40 to $50 thousand dollar question
Post by: TheSoccerMom on January 11, 2007, 06:15:05 AM
Tee hee!!
You reminded me, yes, of the glamorous spots on some of these trips... We spent a long, cold, drafty evening in Butte, MT, once, and there was ONE spot to sit down.. the other pilot and I kept trying to share the seat but the giant crater in the middle where the springs were busted made it so hard not to FALL IN... we kept switching places and were SO cold and were starving... we couldn't stop LAUGHING... our feet were numb from the breeze under the door.... we practically attacked the passengers in JOY when they finally appeared.... ahh, the fun of charters.... ;D
And YES, I had one funny smokejumper who ALWAYS asked where the lav was, where were the cold Pepsis, and what was the inflight MOVIE... he was hilarious... he's the same one who would (only in public places if "real" people were around) run up to me when we got a fire call, and would holler in a panicked voice "We gotta go! Have you seen the PILOT!?!?" It was so funny. He loved the confused / angry / huffy looks he got from the poor public bystanders. One quite-intense woman had just finished telling me (rather vehemently) how GLAD SHE WAS to see a WOMAN PILOT... then he ran up and said that with a big grin, and, honestly, I thought she was going to slug him.
He was great entertainment.. but he was also such a parachute expert that he was finally lured away to develop new parachute systems. I still miss him!! ;D
And, there are no crappers or any other amenities, for that matter....... as you know.... but Hey, that's a whole 'nother thread!!! :-\
