Roost Air Lounge => The Classroom => Topic started by: Frank N. O. on December 15, 2006, 04:17:58 AM
Title: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: Frank N. O. on December 15, 2006, 04:17:58 AM
I believe the european one is called JAA but not sure. I read at a danish pilot forum that a PPL here would run 60-80K DKK (roughly 10-14K USD) whereas in USA it would be a lot less, even with the plane ticket and stay so I'm wondering, what differences are there? The only difference between US and Europe in terms of aviation rules I know is that the FAA has two levels of medicals for commercial pilots whereas Europe only has one.
Frank
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: undatc on December 15, 2006, 04:42:05 AM
I know my Private here ran me about 8k in flight time, with books and tuition for the ground school, i was probably close to 10k ish. I know we get discount air time, our rental rate is 59 an hour plus 20 for the instructor, id imagine thats a lot higer on the outside. I know the FBO is renting their warrior here for 90 an hour plus fuel, plus instructor, so ill let you do the math on that.
As for medicals, we have three. 3rd 2nd and 1st class.
3rd class is all you need for your private and is good for 36 calendar months, yes a calendar mont is different than a regular month. Ask the FAA i cant explain it...
2nd class is your basic commercial medical, and is also what you have to have to be a controller. These are good for 12 calendar months.
Lastly you have 1st class which is what you need for your Airline Transport Pilot rating, and to fly as a commercial airline captain for someone like Northwest. These are good for six calendar months.
Not that you want to read it, but here is the reg's for the medical certiicate:
Sec. 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.
(a) Operations requiring a medical certificate.
Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, a person: (1) Must hold a first-class medical certificate when exercising the privileges of an airline transport pilot certificate; (2) Must hold at least a second-class medical certificate when exercising the privileges of a commercial pilot certificate; or (3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate-- (i) When exercising the privileges of a private pilot certificate; (ii) When exercising the privileges of a recreational pilot certificate; (iii) Except as specified in paragraph (b)(3) of this section, when exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate; (iv) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate, except for a flight instructor certificate with a glider category rating, if the person is acting as the pilot in command or is serving as a required pilot flight crewmember; or (v) Except for a glider category rating or a balloon class rating, prior to taking a practical test that is performed in an aircraft for a certificate or rating at the recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot certificate level.
(b) Operations not requiring a medical certificate.
A person is not required to hold a medical certificate: (1) When exercising the privileges of a pilot certificate with a glider category rating; (2) When exercising the privileges of a pilot certificate with a balloon class rating; (3) When exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate while seeking a pilot certificate with a glider category rating or balloon class rating; (4) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate with a glider category rating; (5) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate if the person is not acting as pilot in command or serving as a required pilot flight crewmember; (6) When exercising the privileges of a ground instructor certificate; (7) When serving as an examiner or check airman during the administration of a test or check for a certificate, rating, or authorization conducted in a flight simulator or flight training device; or (8) When taking a test or check for a certificate, rating, or authorization conducted in a flight simulator or flight training device.
(c) Duration of a medical certificate.
(1) A first-class medical certificate expires at the end of the last day of-- (i) The sixth month after the month of the date of examination shown on the certificate for operations requiring an airline transport pilot certificate; (ii) The 12th month after the month of the date of examination shown on the certificate for operations requiring a commercial pilot certificate or an air traffic control tower operator certificate; and (iii) The period specified in paragraph (c)(3) of this section for operations requiring a recreational pilot certificate, a private pilot certificate, a flight instructor certificate (when acting as pilot in command or a required pilot flight crewmember in operations other than glider or balloon), or a student pilot certificate. (2) A second-class medical certificate expires at the end of the last day of-- (i) The 12th month after the month of the date of examination shown on the certificate for operations requiring a commercial pilot certificate or an air traffic control tower operator certificate; and (ii) The period specified in paragraph (c)(3) of this section for operations requiring a recreational pilot certificate, a private pilot certificate, a flight instructor certificate (when acting as pilot in command or a required pilot flight crewmember in operations other than glider or balloon), or a student pilot certificate. (3) A third-class medical certificate for operations requiring a recreational pilot certificate, a private pilot certificate, a flight instructor certificate (when acting as pilot in command or a required pilot flight crewmember in operations other than glider or balloon), or a student pilot certificate issued-- (i) Before September 16, 1996, expires at the end of the 24th month after the month of the date of examination shown on the certificate; or (ii) On or after September 16, 1996, expires at the end of: (A) The 36th month after the month of the date of the examination shown on the certificate if the person has not reached his or her 40th birthday on or before the date of examination; or (B) The 24th month after the month of the date of the examination shown on the certificate if the person has reached his or her 40th birthday on or before the date of the examination.
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: Frank N. O. on December 15, 2006, 05:03:56 AM
Thank you for the reply :) I think I can guess that a calender month might be counted as a fixed number of days, perhaps 30. Is a FAA PPL "worse" than a JAA one? Regarding what safety and skills are needed to get one (of course I know that what instructor/school you go to has everything to say about how good you can get, but the rules still stipulate the minimum requirements for a license).
What could I fly if I got a class 2 medical (with the corrosponding licenses and ratings of course)? Would that be small single and twin cargoplanes for instance, like a Twin Otter or Caravan and similar? Just trying to see what options I might have for a living, I never was interested in flying jumbo's anyway but smaller planes sound interesting to me, especially after reading the stories from here and learning from the valuable information and experience from you great people here |:)\
Frank
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: undatc on December 15, 2006, 05:28:00 AM
It depends. Just gettin your private doesnt allow you to fly for hire. You would need a whole range of endorsements, ratings and licenses to fly commercially here.
Ill take a stab at this an hopefully ill get them all, guys feel free to correct me here, after all im a atc guy..
First off, in addition to the Private, You would need to get your commercial license. You would also need a High Altitude endorsement, depending on the type of plane, a complex edorsement (for retractable gear and constant seed props). If you fly internationally, ie up into canada, you'd also need a radio operators permit (youre supposed to have these though most people dont). If you also plan on flying for like a regional, or smaller companies, you'll need to build some time up also, so plan on getting your CFI and teaching for awhile.
Ok and how calendar months work is, ill try to get this right, the moth you get your medical in, doesnt count. You start counting months on the first day of the next month, and it is good thru the last day of that last month, ie if you get your medical on Dec 2 2006, you start counting for your class two on Jan 1 2007. And it is good till Dec 31 at midnight 2007. Basicly you get your first month free. Kinda...
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: Baradium on December 15, 2006, 08:12:56 AM
commercial pilot's license for either single or multi engine is what you need, as well as instrument rating and the stated endorsements (those endorsements aren't really all that much trouble though).
For the medical, I wouldn't call it first month free.
What they mean by calender month is that the actual date you got the medical isn't important, simply the month you got it in.
If you got it in september 2006, it's good until the end of the last day of september 2007 (as a class II with class II privelidges). It doesn't matter if you got it september 1st of september 20th.
So if you get a medical on the last day of the month, you don't get any "free" time.
After the given time is up, each medical basically turns into the next one. A Class I can be used as a Class II for 2 years and a Class III for 2-3 years (same period as if you got a plain class III).
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on December 18, 2006, 07:00:57 PM
A Private (and any other certificates/ratings) here will run about half of what it does in Europe. In order to get on with almost any commercial carrier, you would need at least 500 hrs total time. The "normal" track for most pilots is to get the Private, then add an Instrument rating, then go to Commercial, then possibly Multi, and finally CFI/CFII. Doing it this way gets you a lot of hours, but you'll still be 200-300 short of getting hired.
If you want to get a degree in Aviation, I would recommend UND, Embry-Riddle, Purdue, etc. If you're not looking for a degree, find a Part 61 (a section of the regulations) school that you like. Part 61 tends to be more flexible and less expensive than Part 141 schools, but if you like a lot of structure, go for Part 141.
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: undatc on December 18, 2006, 08:16:50 PM
A Private (and any other certificates/ratings) here will run about half of what it does in Europe. In order to get on with almost any commercial carrier, you would need at least 500 hrs total time. The "normal" track for most pilots is to get the Private, then add an Instrument rating, then go to Commercial, then possibly Multi, and finally CFI/CFII. Doing it this way gets you a lot of hours, but you'll still be 200-300 short of getting hired.
If you want to get a degree in Aviation, I would recommend UND, Embry-Riddle, Purdue, etc. If you're not looking for a degree, find a Part 61 (a section of the regulations) school that you like. Part 61 tends to be more flexible and less expensive than Part 141 schools, but if you like a lot of structure, go for Part 141.
The rumor recently flying around UND is that Purdue just caned their whole flight school. Dont know the validity of that, but that seems to be what everyone is saying. And dont go to Embry Riddle. I have several friends that went there, quit, and came to UND. They are highly unfriendly to students, they are converting to commercial pilot recurrent training etc. There are a few other univeristys out there too, University of Alaska, there is several in California too.
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: Baradium on December 18, 2006, 09:24:31 PM
The rumor recently flying around UND is that Purdue just caned their whole flight school. Dont know the validity of that, but that seems to be what everyone is saying. And dont go to Embry Riddle. I have several friends that went there, quit, and came to UND. They are highly unfriendly to students, they are converting to commercial pilot recurrent training etc. There are a few other univeristys out there too, University of Alaska, there is several in California too.
I have a hard time believing that Purdue would can their entire flight school. They hosted a NIFA competition a few years ago and it's a pretty darn big program to just up and quit on. Guess anything's possible.
I have to insert my obligatory plug for MTSU, which is where I went. I know I met a UND and a few Embry students there who changed to MTSU, so it can't be *that* bad.
Disclaimer: UND's program is probobly the biggest, and if you have the money probobly will give you some of the most variable experience. But it's also one of the more expensive as well.
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: BrianGMFS on December 18, 2006, 09:57:32 PM
Daniel Webster College in New Hampshire has a pretty active aviation degree/flight training program as well. You'll get some good IFR training flying in New England in the winter ::rofl::
Brian
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: undatc on December 18, 2006, 10:24:46 PM
The rumor recently flying around UND is that Purdue just caned their whole flight school. Dont know the validity of that, but that seems to be what everyone is saying. And dont go to Embry Riddle. I have several friends that went there, quit, and came to UND. They are highly unfriendly to students, they are converting to commercial pilot recurrent training etc. There are a few other univeristys out there too, University of Alaska, there is several in California too.
I have a hard time believing that Purdue would can their entire flight school. They hosted a NIFA competition a few years ago and it's a pretty darn big program to just up and quit on. Guess anything's possible.
I have to insert my obligatory plug for MTSU, which is where I went. I know I met a UND and a few Embry students there who changed to MTSU, so it can't be *that* bad.
Disclaimer: UND's program is probobly the biggest, and if you have the money probobly will give you some of the most variable experience. But it's also one of the more expensive as well.
We arent that expensive. The average cost of a full commercial degree sits around 80k and my atc degree is gonna set me back about 60. One nice thing though is cause we are so big, we have all the newest and best gear out there. Which can be good and bad, ie when you get a real job, youll probably be flying 40 year old planes, so you'll be going backwards.
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: cj5_pilot on December 19, 2006, 03:33:20 AM
I spent something like $5,000 USD getting my PPL in 2000. A C-152 was running $66 an hour wet at the time (C-172 was $88 an hour wet). Plus instructor Plus ground school, etc. That was as part of a flying club and there were yearly "dues".
Never did get any time in the C-210 :(
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: Baradium on December 19, 2006, 03:48:23 AM
We arent that expensive. The average cost of a full commercial degree sits around 80k and my atc degree is gonna set me back about 60. One nice thing though is cause we are so big, we have all the newest and best gear out there. Which can be good and bad, ie when you get a real job, youll probably be flying 40 year old planes, so you'll be going backwards.
Expensive is relative, I consider 3 times more than what my degree cost to be pretty darn expensive. ;)
I think out of state tuition for MTSU (I was considered in state thanks to academic common market) is $3000 now a semester. That's $6000 a year or $24,000 total. Even if it was $20,000 for flight training (don't believe it was close to that), it's still only about half of what it is for UND. ;)
When I started, in state tuition was under $2000 a semester.
$5000 a rating is about right. Except the commercial multiengine, probobly more like a grand or so for that one. If you are part 61 you need 250 hours to get a commercial. Part 141 you can do it in 200. That can make a big change for cost.
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on December 19, 2006, 09:38:28 PM
UND is expensive. Even with reciprocity from MN, my degree cost me over 60K. I had a friend from MI that spent a hell of a lot more than that. From what I remember, a Warrior was over $80/hr, an Arrow was $120 or so, and the Seminole was over $200, not including the instructor. Tuition was about $3000/semester, and books were usually around $400 or so (we got a break compared to other majors because most of our books were gov't publications).
UND is also moving towards an all glass fleet, which is alarming to me. How can you produce a well rounded pilot if all they know is flying around with a computer in front of them? I don't really agree with many decisions the aviation department makes, but they are still the best school. ;)
Don't know what I was thinking, suggesting Embry-Riddle. I should know better than that.
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: tundra_flier on December 19, 2006, 10:02:20 PM
I got a package deal for my Private certificate here in Fairbanks in 2000, it was only $3,000US for all the flight time in a Citabria 7GCBC and Cherokee 140/160. But that was something of cowboy operator. Flight instruction in Fairbanks currently runs $4,000 to $5,000 depending on how much time you need. If you're self motivated enough you can just purchase the books or videos and do the ground school on your own. Or UAF offers ground school courses, not sure what the current prices are.
What are the differences in privelages and restrictions for European license vs. a US private?
Phil
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: Baradium on December 19, 2006, 10:11:46 PM
re: all glass
MTSU is doing a test program for the FAA and NASA regarding the SATS concept. As part of the program they are experimenting with training students in all glass simulators and aircraft.
The students in the program get a combined private/instrument rating (also an experiment) in glass cockpit equiped Diamond DA-40 aircraft. After the rating they are put in steam guage DA-40s to test how they adjust to conventional instrumentation. They also are put in VFR only C-152s to see how they react to minimal instrumentation.
It's an interesting program, NASA gave a grant to equip the program DA-40s with the G1000s.
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on December 20, 2006, 09:04:55 PM
Wow. I'd like to see the results of that study. How long is it supposed to take?
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: chuckar101 on December 21, 2006, 07:42:10 PM
Here at ATP they get you get your license and a total of 85 hours in a C172, and about ten hours in a DA-40. There deal is that you can't fly in the diamond until after you get your license. It costs about 8000 US, but housing is included. I don't know if I agree with the all glass, just from the stories I heard I would believe that all the information given would stop the student from looking outside.
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: tundra_flier on December 21, 2006, 09:47:10 PM
Quote
I don't know if I agree with the all glass, just from the stories I heard I would believe that all the information given would stop the student from looking outside.
Considering how many new planes, especially the larger commercial planes, have glass panels now, I think it's a very good idea to give students at least some time in one. Friend of mine tried to get his IFR rating this summer, he was ready for the checkride when the plane broke down. The only other plane available had an IFR GPS system, one of the newer all-in-on packages with all your NAV/Comm in one box. After 3 hours in it with the instructor he gave up for the summer, was just to complex to learn in a short time. Granted he openly addmitted it'd be easier than the older systems once he got it figured out. So, I think it's definitly a good idea to give students, or new pilots some time with a glass panel.
Personally, my only grip is that the little buttons on most systems are hard to use with gloves on, or in turbulance. I like my big old knobs and dials. ;D
Phil
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on January 08, 2007, 08:56:18 PM
I don't know if I agree with the all glass, just from the stories I heard I would believe that all the information given would stop the student from looking outside.
Considering how many new planes, especially the larger commercial planes, have glass panels now, I think it's a very good idea to give students at least some time in one. Friend of mine tried to get his IFR rating this summer, he was ready for the checkride when the plane broke down. The only other plane available had an IFR GPS system, one of the newer all-in-on packages with all your NAV/Comm in one box. After 3 hours in it with the instructor he gave up for the summer, was just to complex to learn in a short time. Granted he openly addmitted it'd be easier than the older systems once he got it figured out. So, I think it's definitly a good idea to give students, or new pilots some time with a glass panel.
Personally, my only grip is that the little buttons on most systems are hard to use with gloves on, or in turbulance. I like my big old knobs and dials. ;D
Phil
Some time is really valuable, especially for instrument training, but doing all your training in a glass cockpit is really going to cause problems when students start renting from Bear Aviation in Baudette, MN. *ahem*
Title: Re: Are there big differences between the US and european PPL?
Post by: Baradium on January 27, 2007, 10:18:28 AM
Wow. I'd like to see the results of that study. How long is it supposed to take?
Not sure, but the initial group of students getting the combined checkride was spring before last (2 years ago now). It seems they are still doing that program, but initial findings are probobly being put together already.
