Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: Turbomallard on September 01, 2006, 12:43:32 AM
A popular patch for the units transitioning has a drawing of the Tomcat character that's been used for the F-14 and a slogan that reads "Honets by mandate, Tomcats by choice."
Indeed.
I expect Chuck will have something to say on the matter in a future strip, yes? Maybe have a Tom Cruise chicken stop by Roost Air...?
I spent the day at home scanning 220+ photos that John Monnett loaned me from his personal collection (stuff we didn't have time to scan during my visit Tuesday). Looked at and evaluated a hundred or two more. I don't want to even touch a bleepin' flatbed scanner for a month! (But I'll be scanning again tomorrow...)
TM
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: switchtech on September 01, 2006, 01:19:59 AM
So long "Tom" - we knew ya neither as well nor as long as we would prefer. Blue skies.
jbs
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: Baradium on September 01, 2006, 02:33:19 AM
They've already got the last tomcat to trap (and depart) on display in the Naval Aviation Museum at NAS Pensacola. But yes, it is sad.
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: spacer on September 01, 2006, 03:14:55 AM
Hehehe... Hans tries to get a surplus Tom after finally watching Top Gun...?
Ok, maybe a *little* off the wall.
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: tundra_flier on September 01, 2006, 06:14:37 AM
I don't know about the Navy, but I understand that Air Force policy is that no aircraft that's gotten an air to air kill will ever be scrapped...
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: Frank N. O. on September 02, 2006, 10:22:45 AM
It really is a sad day, the Tomcat together with the Valkyrie, Blackbird and Black Widow II are my favourite modern military planes. The look of a Tomcat in the air is without equal.
Do they normally scrap the planes or are some of the shells sold privately? I for one have seen a Sabre parked extremely tightly in a garden in DK, a very small garden might I ad, not at all a millionaire's home. A Tomcat in Jolly Rogers livery with the black tailfins with scull and crossbanes and yellow/white trim would look awesome! But maybe it's not respectful to just let it sit there without engines never moving again?
Frank
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: spacer on September 02, 2006, 04:27:27 PM
There's an F-111 sitting in front of a surplus store on I-30 in Texas. If they can sell one of those, I don't see 'em having too much of a problem selling a (demilled maybe) Tomcat. I've been reading Ragwings and Heavy Iron by Martin Caidin, and he's pretty clear on the government's lack of historical foresight when it comes to retiring equipment. For instance, anyone see the footage of the guv'mint dozers pushing a bunch of P-38s into a hole? Brung a tear to my eye, it did.
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: FlyingBlind on September 04, 2006, 02:37:48 PM
You have to be bloody kidding me !?!?!?!?!?!
I love the F-14 Tomcat! Honestly....cooome oooon :'(
i liked how they paid respect - 7 yellow shirted officers doing the marks in unison.
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: Ted_Stryker on September 05, 2006, 11:26:23 PM
Well, a great plane retires... but at least we got to see her in action in so many films and conflicts!
The trouble with them is the maintenance now... it's just too expensive, and the technology in them is at about it's limit of upgradeability for the age of the airframes. There have been an increasing number of explosions due to structural failures around the main fuselage too, resulting in ejections, and a few fatalities of late.
I'll be sad to see her go, but at least we have a terrific replacement in the F/A-18, especially the later E, F, and G models now :)
Onward and upward!
On the other hand, the A-10 Thunderbolt is still out there... the USAF has not yet been able to decommission them... every time they try, they find out they have nothing else in inventory quite like them, nor as tough as them, and call them back into service :) B-52's are still active out there too! Sometimes things go by the wayside... then others seem to stick around perpetually.
Just remember, there's always the USAF Museum and Navy Museum.... not to mention the Smithsonian... where you'll be able to still ogle these great planes :)
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: tundra_flier on September 06, 2006, 12:30:22 AM
Quote
For instance, anyone see the footage of the guv'mint dozers pushing a bunch of P-38s into a hole?
Haven't seen the footage, but did hear about it. On a similar note, I understand our previous president ordered the A-6 inventory turned into an artificial reef somewhere in the Gulf of Mexico. :( Not good enough for the US anymore, but we sure as heck didn't want to risk them being used against us!
My personal favorite plane that got set aside was the F-20 Tigershark. By far the slickest, meanest looking fighter every IMO. Not only was it rejected by the US Airforce (I understand they re-wrote the requirements at the last minute to favor the F-16 since they already had some in inventory) but Northrope wasn't allowed to sell it over seas as an upgrade to the F-5. Seems the airforce didn't want it, but acknowleged that it was a better fighter/interceptor than the F-16 and didn't want to risk going up against it someday. Particularly impressive for its day was the fact that it could go from dead cold to 10,000ft in 5 min with no support equipment. I watched a video of that once, Starts with the pilot running from a jeep to the plane, climbing in, retracting the ladder and steps, firing the engine, turning onto the active and blasting straight up!
Phil
Phil
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: Ted_Stryker on September 06, 2006, 07:51:38 AM
For instance, anyone see the footage of the guv'mint dozers pushing a bunch of P-38s into a hole?
Haven't seen the footage, but did hear about it. On a similar note, I understand our previous president ordered the A-6 inventory turned into an artificial reef somewhere in the Gulf of Mexico. :( Not good enough for the US anymore, but we sure as heck didn't want to risk them being used against us!
My personal favorite plane that got set aside was the F-20 Tigershark. By far the slickest, meanest looking fighter every IMO. Not only was it rejected by the US Airforce (I understand they re-wrote the requirements at the last minute to favor the F-16 since they already had some in inventory) but Northrope wasn't allowed to sell it over seas as an upgrade to the F-5. Seems the airforce didn't want it, but acknowleged that it was a better fighter/interceptor than the F-16 and didn't want to risk going up against it someday. Particularly impressive for its day was the fact that it could go from dead cold to 10,000ft in 5 min with no support equipment. I watched a video of that once, Starts with the pilot running from a jeep to the plane, climbing in, retracting the ladder and steps, firing the engine, turning onto the active and blasting straight up!
Phil
Phil
Not sure if this is true or not, but I did hear that the Tigershark had a problem with stall recovery similar to the problems that plagued the F-104 Starfighter. Again, not sure if it's true... but if it is, it would also explain the F-16's eventual win.
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: Frank N. O. on September 06, 2006, 02:19:24 PM
I was wondering, I'm sure we've all seen the videos of a Tomcat going past between two military ships in supersonic speeds and another without sound with slowmotion where it breaks the barrior directly as it's next to the ship. Was the Tomcat the fastest plane at sea-level?
Frank
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: tundra_flier on September 06, 2006, 03:31:26 PM
For instance, anyone see the footage of the guv'mint dozers pushing a bunch of P-38s into a hole?
Haven't seen the footage, but did hear about it. On a similar note, I understand our previous president ordered the A-6 inventory turned into an artificial reef somewhere in the Gulf of Mexico. :( Not good enough for the US anymore, but we sure as heck didn't want to risk them being used against us!
My personal favorite plane that got set aside was the F-20 Tigershark. By far the slickest, meanest looking fighter every IMO. Not only was it rejected by the US Airforce (I understand they re-wrote the requirements at the last minute to favor the F-16 since they already had some in inventory) but Northrope wasn't allowed to sell it over seas as an upgrade to the F-5. Seems the airforce didn't want it, but acknowleged that it was a better fighter/interceptor than the F-16 and didn't want to risk going up against it someday. Particularly impressive for its day was the fact that it could go from dead cold to 10,000ft in 5 min with no support equipment. I watched a video of that once, Starts with the pilot running from a jeep to the plane, climbing in, retracting the ladder and steps, firing the engine, turning onto the active and blasting straight up!
Phil
Phil
Not sure if this is true or not, but I did hear that the Tigershark had a problem with stall recovery similar to the problems that plagued the F-104 Starfighter. Again, not sure if it's true... but if it is, it would also explain the F-16's eventual win.
Haddn't heard that. The artical I read in Smithsonian Air & Space back around `89 said the test pilots all favored the F-20. But since the Air Force already had F-16's in inventory, and spare parts, and trained maintenance personel, they changed the requirements at the last min to Multi-role fighter/attack from a pure fighter/interceptor. Since the F-16 entry was an attack aircraft that had been reconfigured for air superiority in the first place... Actually a very logical decision on their part, guess that's part of what makes it so unbelievable. ;)
I'd have trouble believing the F-20 had any serious flight problems since it was a progression of the T-38/F-5. But then little changes can have a huge impacts on handling too, different airfoil, balance etc.
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: Baradium on September 07, 2006, 04:45:03 AM
Haddn't heard that. The artical I read in Smithsonian Air & Space back around `89 said the test pilots all favored the F-20. But since the Air Force already had F-16's in inventory, and spare parts, and trained maintenance personel, they changed the requirements at the last min to Multi-role fighter/attack from a pure fighter/interceptor. Since the F-16 entry was an attack aircraft that had been reconfigured for air superiority in the first place... Actually a very logical decision on their part, guess that's part of what makes it so unbelievable. ;)
I'd have trouble believing the F-20 had any serious flight problems since it was a progression of the T-38/F-5. But then little changes can have a huge impacts on handling too, different airfoil, balance etc.
The B-1900 has a lot of extra pieces to make it more stable due to the changes they made to the Kingair 200 design to make a 1900 airliner. We've got stubs stinking out everywhere. ;)
Taillets and Stabilons are the most obvious if you see one up close.
We might never know for sure on the F-20....
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: madpilot44 on September 07, 2006, 10:26:45 PM
There's an F-111 sitting in front of a surplus store on I-30 in Texas. If they can sell one of those, I don't see 'em having too much of a problem selling a (demilled maybe) Tomcat. I've been reading Ragwings and Heavy Iron by Martin Caidin, and he's pretty clear on the government's lack of historical foresight when it comes to retiring equipment. For instance, anyone see the footage of the guv'mint dozers pushing a bunch of P-38s into a hole? Brung a tear to my eye, it did.
if the buyer takes the engine off it it may be possible, but I hear the collings foundation needed to make an amendment to an act of congress to be able to have their F-4 (http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/Misc/F4dAirToAir/index.html) flying, so... I don't really think they're gonna let some guy buy a flyable F-14 just yet. A shame though... my favorite plane :'(
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: FB41 on September 07, 2006, 11:41:11 PM
The US Navy is loathe to sell ANY airplane in their inventory and they consider ALL planes that were once used by the Navy and their big Brother the Marine Corps, to still be Navy property.
Just read some of the horror stories about guys that have recovered crashed Navy planes...
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: YawningMan on September 10, 2006, 06:35:26 PM
I've not seen a lot of the F-14, but I really do like the F/A-18. I highly doubt it's anywhere as fast. While it is sad to see the F-14 go, I'm plenty happy to see that the F/A-18 is well-established and ready to serve in the Tomcat's stead. I still hold a lot of respect for the C and Ds, as well. F/A-18 is a very solid and capable machine, and I have few bad things to say about it. It's just not the same caliber of movie-star as the Tomcat always was.
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: Ted_Stryker on September 11, 2006, 09:32:52 PM
I've not seen a lot of the F-14, but I really do like the F/A-18. I highly doubt it's anywhere as fast. While it is sad to see the F-14 go, I'm plenty happy to see that the F/A-18 is well-established and ready to serve in the Tomcat's stead. I still hold a lot of respect for the C and Ds, as well. F/A-18 is a very solid and capable machine, and I have few bad things to say about it. It's just not the same caliber of movie-star as the Tomcat always was.
The latest version of the F/A-18 is the E, F, and G model, which are practically completely different machines, with far more power, and almost twice the size of the F/A-18 C and D models. You can tell the difference in photos between them even without a scale reference by the shape of the leading edge extensions coming off the wings. On the A, B, C, and D models there is a kind of indentation contour on the LEX's. The engine intakes on the earlier models are also round, whereas the new F/A-18's (E, F, and G) have rectangular intakes. How do I know this so well? I was on the team that helped build the F/A-18 E/F :)
I'd put up a new F/A-18 against the F-14. The new F-22 Raptor, however, will be the true future of air superiority manned fighters.
|:)\
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: Callisto on September 12, 2006, 07:42:50 PM
I had to comment on this. I started posting in this forum due to the Top Gun post. I got into aviation due to Top Gun and the cool as hell Tomcat. I hate to see "her" go (oh wait, that's a different topic in here :D ). The F/A-18x will be a decent replacement in the military aspect, but the Hornet will never replace the Tomcat in my heart. |:)\ |:)\ |:)\
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: Ted_Stryker on September 12, 2006, 08:20:28 PM
I can understand the way people feel. I have similar feelings about the F4-U Corsair, F-86 Thunderjet, Navy Hellcat, and a number of other planes that were movie stars long before the "Top Gun" movie.
For that matter, the B-52 isn't bad either.... remember Dr. Strangelove! Yeeee haaaaa!!! ;D
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: YawningMan on September 13, 2006, 08:15:06 AM
Aside from having worked on their avionics, a lot of my fondness for F/A 18s comes from the howl their engines make. F-16s and AV-8s just make a lot of racket. F-14s screech and whine. F/A 18s howl like a banshee coming to reap souls. I've been surprised by each of these airplanes doing one thing or another, and the most lasting impressions definitely go to the 18s.
Plus, when they come by, barely under the speed of sound, you can hear a bit of a "whoop" just before you hear the engine boom. They are the most audibly satisfying jet around, IMO.
The best audio experience from airplanes still goes to a certain flight of immaculately painted red Stearmans with 450hp radials. I will be really sad the day the Red Baron Squadron retires from show perfomances.
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: spacer on September 13, 2006, 12:56:37 PM
I grew up under an approach for Cannon Air Force Base in New Mexico, when they had the F-111. Now, *that* was a satisfying jet noise. When they got rid of 'em for the whiny little F-16, I had trouble sleeping as I was used to a deeper roar.
Title: Re: A sad, sad day in aviation...
Post by: cj5_pilot on September 13, 2006, 07:09:57 PM
In addition to the C-130s that use my home as a checkpoint, quite a few of the F-15 Eagles do. I rarely see the F-16s stationed at Elmendorf. I'm looking forward to the new C-17s and F-22 Raptors that are going in to Elmendorf, hopefully they'll use the same pattern :)
