Roost Air Lounge => Current Strip => Topic started by: Zaffex on July 04, 2006, 02:52:00 PM
Title: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: Zaffex on July 04, 2006, 02:52:00 PM
He He He! A very funny strip. So is there a particular reason why Hans has been flying with Chuck lately? Taking flying lessons or something? Just curious. Happy Independece Day, by the way. |:)\
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: fireflyr on July 04, 2006, 03:58:57 PM
HA!---Love the fat jokes >:(---what, ME sensitive ;D ;D
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: Frank N. O. on July 04, 2006, 04:02:19 PM
ROFL, that was such a good one, even the ATC was in on it, and the look on Hans' face... ;D 8) |:)\
Frank
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: Plthijnx on July 04, 2006, 06:55:40 PM
I'll try to find out the right answer. Anybody else know?? Fireflyr?? Sleek? Ted?? Gulf?
I thought they (ATC) used the "HEAVY" designation on any wide body such as DC-10, 747, 777, ETC. ??? Interesting question though---I'm still looking.
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: happylanding on July 13, 2006, 08:38:24 AM
I was just wondering....isn't the light/medium/heavy classification related to the wake turbolence they develop?!? (so, in that case it's also related to weight). and maybe there is a kind of list of aircraft that says which aicraft must go into a category or another....
Morning toughts.... :) :) :)
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: Firegirl on July 13, 2006, 04:48:36 PM
Thanks for the effort guys!
Brings up another question though.... When is a plane called a "wide body" then? Does it go by how many seats are in a row? (I know my questions might be stupid...sorry)
Hans is kind of a "wide-body", huh?! ::) ;D ;D
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: happylanding on July 13, 2006, 05:18:06 PM
Oh, I can't help you with this question. I had never heard the expression wide body before. ??? ??? ??? HAHAHAHA! Poor Hans! He won't have any respect since he doesn't lose some weight! The strange is, that yogurt is not so bad: you could find it in almost every regime!!! YOu sure he did not run a beer factory instead?!?
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: fireflyr on July 14, 2006, 03:49:30 AM
I was just wondering....isn't the light/medium/heavy classification related to the wake turbolence they develop?!? (so, in that case it's also related to weight). and maybe there is a kind of list of aircraft that says which aicraft must go into a category or another....
Morning toughts.... :) :) :)
Wake turbulence is probably a factor---I agree |:)\
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on July 15, 2006, 04:32:06 AM
I always thought it was wide-bodies that were heavy. The wake turbulence theory is a sound one, though. Is it in the AIM?
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: happylanding on July 15, 2006, 08:45:38 AM
I always thought it was wide-bodies that were heavy. The wake turbulence theory is a sound one, though. Is it in the AIM?
Dunno. I gave a glance to the AIP but could not find anything related to it. then I just thought that when you complete a FP you have to write the wake turbolence you develop (and you use light for a small aircraft so it's the opposite of heavy)...and why a person would need to tell you his aircraft is heavy when on air? what would be the utility of saying so, if not to avoid any problem to the other aicraft? and maybe not being given a small grass rwy? well, again morning thoughts.... :) :) ??? :D
Among 140 members, somebody has to find the right answer!!
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: ZAIZAI on July 15, 2006, 10:05:41 AM
Ahh, the not so aviation avid memebr of this forum to the rescue! I take no responsibility for the information provided I just like to prove to you all that I am a "Messerschmitter!" and not just an ordinary "Besserwisser"...
The ATC designation "Heavy" comes in place when ever an aircraft operating weight ecceeds 300,000 pounds, the term is used as a reminder to the ATC and everyone else in the air to keep to the separation minimals in order to avoid wake turbulence. I have heard that the 757 got the designation not due to the operating weight but due to heavy wake turbulence, can anyone confirm this or is too nerdy a question even for this forum?
Again I stress that I could be very wrong and missinformed but my memmory is, still, quite good and this is what I picked up by some flight jockeys at an airshow...
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: happylanding on July 15, 2006, 10:40:35 AM
can anyone confirm this or is too nerdy a question even for this forum?
thanks for the right answer! and yes, I can confirm. thanks to your info I could find a topic in another forum that says everything. it reports that: the heavy designation is used 1) for wake turbolence issues, so that ATC can space the ACFT in a good way not to cause any problem to the traffic 2) for rwy, since they need reinforced pavements and not all airports can handle them. 3) DC10, L-1011, DC-8, 747, 707,767, Airbus310 are the Heavy metal ones, plus a lot of cargo 4) 300000 pounds is right. 5) And yes, I can confirm the issue about the 757. just give a glance to http://www.mbe.doe.gov/me2-4/oam/docs/fsn/9401.htm
|:)\ |:)\ |:)\ |:)\ ......We just needed something to start with! And who could have imagined that it was going to be the answer given by a skydiver? ;) ;) |:)\
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: happylanding on July 15, 2006, 11:00:17 AM
Even better: I found the following related to Italy
Turbolenza di scia del Boeing 757 (Rif. AIP-Italia, RAC 1 para 21.1; ODS DG 2/04, Nota Tecnica para 5.2.6) L’ICAO classifica il B757 come aeromobile di categoria “MEDIUM”. Dato che questo tipo di aeromobile, per le sue peculiari caratteristiche aerodinamiche, risulta generare una turbolenza di scia equivalente a quella di aeromobili di categoria superiore, le norme che disciplinano la separazione per turbolenza di scia in Italia sono state così modificate, a seconda che tale tipo di aeromobile preceda o segua un altro aeromobile in arrivo o partenza: se precede, il B757 deve essere considerato di categoria “HEAVY” e l’Ente ATC deve applicare la minima di separazione per turbolenza di scia stabilita per tale categoria. se segue, il B757 deve essere considerato di categoria “MEDIUM” e l’Ente ATC deve applicare la minima di separazione per turbolenza di scia stabilita per tale categoria.
that means: ICAO classifies B757 as a Medium cat aircraft. considered that this ACFT; due to his peculiar aerodynamic characteristics, generates a wake turbolence that is like one generated by a superior cat ACFT, the laws in italy for the separation of ACFT for wake turbolence are modified in the following way: If preceeding, the B757 must be considered of a Heavy cat and the ATC musst apply the minimum separation for wake turbolence for this cat. if following, it must be considered of medium cat and the ATC must apply the minimum separation for wake turbolence for this cat.
Searching again inside the Swiss AIP I could also find the following: L cat when MTOM is of 7000 kg or less S cat when MTOM is between 7000 and 40000 kg M cat when MTOM is between 40000 and 136 kg H cat when MTOM is more than 136000 kg
So, with Hans, the Cessna definely was an Heavy!!!!!! :) :)
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on July 15, 2006, 03:11:08 PM
I always thought it was wide-bodies that were heavy. The wake turbulence theory is a sound one, though. Is it in the AIM?
Dunno. I gave a glance to the AIP but could not find anything related to it. then I just thought that when you complete a FP you have to write the wake turbolence you develop (and you use light for a small aircraft so it's the opposite of heavy)...and why a person would need to tell you his aircraft is heavy when on air? what would be the utility of saying so, if not to avoid any problem to the other aicraft? and maybe not being given a small grass rwy? well, again morning thoughts.... :) :) ??? :D
Among 140 members, somebody has to find the right answer!!
So, you have to tell ATC what your wake turbulence is going to be before you go fly? Are they not bright enough to remember that a 172 might be a light aircraft?
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: happylanding on July 15, 2006, 03:59:38 PM
So, you have to tell ATC what your wake turbulence is going to be before you go fly? Are they not bright enough to remember that a 172 might be a light aircraft?
HAHAHA :) Maybe a 172, but what about a P28A ?!? I never told directly to ATC the kind of wake turbolence my (oh would be beautiful..... the ACFT I use) plane develops............probably because they vacate the entire airport when I go flying!!! ;) ;) ;) Jokes apart, We have to write down in any FP we fill the kind of turbolence. But Lugano Airport is a small airport, so we never hear about Boeing whatever or flying things alike. the biggest planes that you can find here are Saab 2000 (a.k.a. Concordino "Small Concorde") and Fairchild Dornier 328-110, so the people in the tower probably never heard about an heavy passing by!
See, we are a 1 terminal, 2 gates, and 1 rwy (19/01) strip airport! I think that for a US standard this would mean the airstrip in the back of the house! :)
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: Mike on July 15, 2006, 05:40:21 PM
I just now got the answer from an actual wide-body captain, but it looks like you guys have figured it out already. I'll post it anyways:
The answer to your question (Is it weight or wake turbulence?) is: Yes. For years only weight was considered as a method of determining wake turbulence, but then (after a few incidences) it became apparent that the B-757, although not a "heavy" by ICAO standards (300,000 lbs. gross T/O, I think) produced as much turbulence fully loaded as a lightly loaded 747. Hence, the term "heavy" is given to the true heavy weights and the 757 and used in all ATC com to remind everybody to cut the fat boy a little extra room or get to see some unusual attitude recoveries.
Now it all makes sense, doesn't it?! ;D
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: ZAIZAI on July 15, 2006, 11:10:28 PM
can anyone confirm this or is too nerdy a question even for this forum?
|:)\ |:)\ |:)\ |:)\ ......We just needed something to start with! And who could have imagined that it was going to be the answer given by a skydiver? ;) ;) |:)\
Well, the few times I have jumped with transponder and radio gear I probably should have been edsignated "heavy", in free fall at least...or perhaps just all the time. Remember folks, big belly cleaves the air better than a six pack. ;)
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: happylanding on July 16, 2006, 01:13:10 PM
Well, the few times I have jumped with transponder and radio gear I probably should have been edsignated "heavy", in free fall at least...or perhaps just all the time. Remember folks, big belly cleaves the air better than a six pack. ;)
I'll tell the Piper to put on some weight then! ;)
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: Firegirl on July 18, 2006, 12:07:02 AM
WOW!! Thanks guys! I wasn't expecting THIS much information. Boy, I feel smarter after reading all of this. I think I can go home now! ;D
Oh! And don't forget not to walk to close behind Hans !!! I am sure there are some swirls behind that wide body ;) ;D (HA HA I am cracking myself up!)
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on July 18, 2006, 04:37:54 AM
So, you have to tell ATC what your wake turbulence is going to be before you go fly? Are they not bright enough to remember that a 172 might be a light aircraft?
HAHAHA :) Maybe a 172, but what about a P28A ?!? I never told directly to ATC the kind of wake turbolence my (oh would be beautiful..... the ACFT I use) plane develops............probably because they vacate the entire airport when I go flying!!! ;) ;) ;) Jokes apart, We have to write down in any FP we fill the kind of turbolence. But Lugano Airport is a small airport, so we never hear about Boeing whatever or flying things alike. the biggest planes that you can find here are Saab 2000 (a.k.a. Concordino "Small Concorde") and Fairchild Dornier 328-110, so the people in the tower probably never heard about an heavy passing by!
See, we are a 1 terminal, 2 gates, and 1 rwy (19/01) strip airport! I think that for a US standard this would mean the airstrip in the back of the house! :)
I'm sure the ratio of large to small airports is about the same here as it is in Switzerland. Within 35 nm of Fargo, we have 1 airport for regular air carriers and almost a dozen small, single runway, non-towered airports. Makes it really nice for training, because you can get out of the busy traffic areas, but still have the ATC experience of a large airport.
I'm still hung up on filing a flight plan with your wake turbulence. I don't get it. Why do they require it? A P-28 generates the same wake turbulence, whether it's a Cherokee, a Cadet, or a Warrior. Why doesn't ATC know the type of wake turbulence you generate, or at least have it on the computer or a list somewhere in the cab? Please help me understand! ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: happylanding on July 18, 2006, 07:21:00 AM
I'm sure the ratio of large to small airports is about the same here as it is in Switzerland. Within 35 nm of Fargo, we have 1 airport for regular air carriers and almost a dozen small, single runway, non-towered airports. Makes it really nice for training, because you can get out of the busy traffic areas, but still have the ATC experience of a large airport.
I'm still hung up on filing a flight plan with your wake turbulence. I don't get it. Why do they require it? A P-28 generates the same wake turbulence, whether it's a Cherokee, a Cadet, or a Warrior. Why doesn't ATC know the type of wake turbulence you generate, or at least have it on the computer or a list somewhere in the cab? Please help me understand! ??? ??? ???
they surely have a list somewhere and probably every ATC man knows the cat of the majority of aircraft he sees in his everyday's life. But the fact remains that when you fill a FP, you have to write as you see in the following lines, the wake turbolence you develop. I tried to find a facsimile of a FP on the net, but couldn't find. anyhow it asks as follows: aircraft identification/ flight rules/ type of flight/ number/ type of aircraft (here I write P28A)/ wake turbolence cat (L,S,M,H)/ equipment/ departure aerodrome/ time/ cruising speed/ level/ route/destination airport/ total EET/ alternate aerodrome/2nd alternate aerodrome/ other info/ endurance/ persons on board/ emergency radio/ survival equipment (no/yes which one)/ jackets (no/yes which one)/ dinghies (no/yes number, capacity, cover, colour)/ aircraft colour and markings/ remarks/ pilot in command. I hope it's clearer now. Maybe it's just an administrative hassle? don't you have this kind of FP in the US? we usually fill it when flying on the Alps (recommended), when flying out of the country and at night (compulsory). If you just do a local flight you can just fill a shorter report (and in that case you just write (I've to tell it by heart so I hope I won't forget anything): acft ident/take off mass (you see? again!)/type of aircraft/outbound route/persons on board/alternate aerodrome/endurance/EET/PIC/time of departure/ and cross if you're doing school/general/aerobatic flight or AD/check that you read metar/notam. And it should be everything, if my memory isn't failing!
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: Stef on July 18, 2006, 10:33:24 AM
Oh! And don't forget not to walk to close behind Hans !!! I am sure there are some swirls behind that wide body ;) ;D (HA HA I am cracking myself up!)
HAHAHA! This is great! I can really picture Sally being knocked off her feet if Hans rushes past her! ;D ;D
You're right!!! |:)\ |:)\ |:)\ |:)\ |:)\
Scene goes: Sally grounded near the coffee machine. Julio and Chuck entering into the room, Another door swirling closed, a quick glance to Hans walking away. Julio:Hey, what's up? what happened to Sally? Chuck: it must have been some wake turbolence, from that (eyes pointing in the direction of Hans) heavy body....
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on July 19, 2006, 03:43:13 AM
Maybe I'm hung up on this flight plan thing too much.
All we're required to fill out (if we even file) is type of flight plan, a/c ID, a/c type (with equipment: transponder, VOR, GPS, etc), departure airport, altitude, departure time, route of flight (direct, airways, etc), destination, time enroute, any remarks, fuel on board, any alternates, pilot's name and home base, souls on board, and color.
Guess I just wanted to understand why all the extra stuff, while nice to know, is a requirement for a flight plan...
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: happylanding on July 19, 2006, 05:59:04 AM
Guess I just wanted to understand why all the extra stuff, while nice to know, is a requirement for a flight plan...
Gulfstream, it could be that, as soon as aviation crosses administrative/bureaucratic paths, things get complicated and you have hundreds of stupid unnecessary moves to perform that would not otherwise be done............ :D :D the extra stuff probably is this kind of hassle and nothing more. ;)
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: Stef on July 20, 2006, 11:02:54 AM
Maybe I'm hung up on this flight plan thing too much.
All we're required to fill out (if we even file) is type of flight plan, a/c ID, a/c type (with equipment: transponder, VOR, GPS, etc), departure airport, altitude, departure time, route of flight (direct, airways, etc), destination, time enroute, any remarks, fuel on board, any alternates, pilot's name and home base, souls on board, and color.
Guess I just wanted to understand why all the extra stuff, while nice to know, is a requirement for a flight plan...
Hmm... okay I don't want to sound like a beaurocrat now, but probably it's 1) to make the pilot think everything through once again before flying and 2) even though everybody might know what a 172 is, some people know more aircraft types than others and they want to avoid situations where someone writes down something like "08 15 X" thinking "what? everybody knows what a Wigglesworth Beeblebrox WB 08 15 Super Sloth X Model is! It's a classic!!" (Don't look it up, I just made this up, hehe :) ) Probably every pilot thinks that way about his own plane...
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: happylanding on July 20, 2006, 12:00:32 PM
everybody knows what a Wigglesworth Beeblebrox WB 08 15 Super Sloth X Model is! It's a classic!!" (Don't look it up, I just made this up, hehe :) ) Probably every pilot thinks that way about his own plane...
Oh my! How could you come out with a name alike?!? just for the name it should be built! :D it would be funny to see the face of people who do not flight, asking "and ....uhm........what have you flown so far?" And replying in a completely serious way: "oh, cessnas, pipers, katanas, cirrus, spitfires, messerschmidts and oh... I also have an extension for the really famous Wigglesworth Beeblebrox". I'm quite sure, the answer would be "Oh, interesting!!!!".
PS. I'm quite sure that with a name alike, it comes with caterpillar, like the B36 that were built during and after 2WW!
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: cj5_pilot on September 07, 2006, 03:00:33 PM
The day I solo'd (February 29th, 2000), I commented to the instructor that the rate of climb was MUCH better on the 152 without the dead weight in the right seat |:)\
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: Frank N. O. on September 07, 2006, 03:56:06 PM
The day I solo'd (February 29th, 2000), I commented to the instructor that the rate of climb was MUCH better on the 152 without the dead weight in the right seat |:)\
ROFL!!! Great one! And surely true considering how lightweight a 152 is to begin with so 1 person is a big % increase |:)\
Frank
P.S. I hope the instructor took it as a joke
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: cj5_pilot on September 07, 2006, 10:58:38 PM
The day I solo'd (February 29th, 2000), I commented to the instructor that the rate of climb was MUCH better on the 152 without the dead weight in the right seat |:)\
ROFL!!! Great one! And surely true considering how lightweight a 152 is to begin with so 1 person is a big % increase |:)\
Frank
P.S. I hope the instructor took it as a joke
He did but said "OK Wiseguy" with an EVIL grin. That's when he started me on hood work....and was VERY insistent that I was VERY precise ;)
Title: Re: ...3 bravo tango heavy...
Post by: Baradium on September 08, 2006, 06:23:43 AM
Hmm... okay I don't want to sound like a beaurocrat now, but probably it's 1) to make the pilot think everything through once again before flying and 2) even though everybody might know what a 172 is, some people know more aircraft types than others and they want to avoid situations where someone writes down something like "08 15 X" thinking "what? everybody knows what a Wigglesworth Beeblebrox WB 08 15 Super Sloth X Model is! It's a classic!!" (Don't look it up, I just made this up, hehe :) ) Probably every pilot thinks that way about his own plane...
I have some time in a T-41, it's fun to fly just to confuse everyone with exactly *what* you're flying. ;) A T41 is an Cessna-R172. This was an E model. Landing gear is the same as a 206 (much larger than a standard 172) and the engine is a 210 horse continental 6 cyl in this specific aircraft. But it's not *just* a 172, but it's not a 182 either or a 206. The official nickname for a T-41 is Muscularo. So if you want to be really mean, you can talk to atc as "Muscularo xxx." Fun times. They are also very fun to fly. Short field is amazing. Max performance climb is 20 degrees of flaps at 2 kts above Vso (with the stall horn screaming into your ear). I'd hate to have an engine failure during that type of climb though...
The T-41 also has a pull handle on each side for door jettison so you can bail out of needed...
On the topic of "heavy," the AIM's Pilot/Controller Glossary says:
Quote
AIRCRAFT CLASSES- For the purposes of Wake Turbulence Separation Minima, ATC classifies aircraft as Heavy, Large, and Small as follows:
a. Heavy- Aircraft capable of takeoff weights of more than 255,000 pounds whether or not they are operating at this weight during a particular phase of flight.
b. Large- Aircraft of more than 41,000 pounds, maximum certificated takeoff weight, up to 255,000 pounds.
c. Small- Aircraft of 41,000 pounds or less maximum certificated takeoff weight.
additionally
Quote
. Because of the possible effects of wake turbulence, controllers are required to apply no less than specified minimum separation for aircraft operating behind a heavy jet and, in certain instances, behind large nonheavy aircraft (i.e., B757 aircraft).
1. Separation is applied to aircraft operating directly behind a heavy/B757 jet at the same altitude or less than 1,000 feet below:
(a) Heavy jet behind heavy jet-4 miles.
(b) Large/heavy behind B757 - 4 miles.
(c) Small behind B757 - 5 miles.
(d) Small/large aircraft behind heavy jet - 5 miles.
2. Also, separation, measured at the time the preceding aircraft is over the landing threshold, is provided to small aircraft:
(a) Small aircraft landing behind heavy jet - 6 miles.
(b) Small aircraft landing behind B757 - 5 miles.
(c) Small aircraft landing behind large aircraft- 4 miles.
We cause enough wake turbulance in our Beech 1900s for ATC to issue warnings to smaller twins. In Anchorage they occasionally forget and will issue a wake turbulance alert to the B767 that's on final behind us. ;)
