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Roost Air Lounge => The Classroom => Topic started by: happylanding on June 02, 2006, 07:20:30 PM

Title: aerobatics
Post by: happylanding on June 02, 2006, 07:20:30 PM
Hello boys!

I've a question for you tonight. As you may have read, I have a ppl license and a ngt extension and around 125 hrs (either pic or double, should be 65/60).
Do you think that's too early to try for an aerobatic license? Has anyone among you done it? Is pure madness to try it after the PPL? is it better to have more experience? is it useful other than pure fun?

Wait for your ideas!!! :D :D :D :D

 
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Roland on June 02, 2006, 07:33:23 PM
I’m not flying, but: what are you waiting for? If you want to do aerobatics just go for it. How long do you want (or consider) to wait? 150 hrs? 250 hrs? 372 hrs? You can fly so go have fun. That’s what it is all about.
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Mike on June 03, 2006, 05:03:33 AM
I’m not flying, but: what are you waiting for? If you want to do aerobatics just go for it. How long do you want (or consider) to wait? 150 hrs? 250 hrs? 372 hrs? You can fly so go have fun. That’s what it is all about.

I'd like to second that. If anything you'll learn more about flying that way than flying around in circles and/or for lunch somewhere going straight and level.... ;)
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: happylanding on June 03, 2006, 11:33:24 AM
I’m not flying, but: what are you waiting for? If you want to do aerobatics just go for it. How long do you want (or consider) to wait? 150 hrs? 250 hrs? 372 hrs? You can fly so go have fun. That’s what it is all about.

I'd like to second that. If anything you'll learn more about flying that way than flying around in circles and/or for lunch somewhere going straight and level.... ;)

Yeah, that's sure! But I was wondering if it was not premature.....like, say, running formula 1 after 1 hr you have the car license, something alike, you see?!?!?
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Frank N. O. on June 03, 2006, 01:16:47 PM
Lol, F1 after 1 hrs driving, good one, but highly exagerated I'd say. Aerobatics can easily be done in less than a Extra 300 but with everything it's something that should be done with a skilled, responsible and friendly instructor, find one and take it from there, we all have to start at the beginning. I do think it could be good to learn where the limits are so you (any pilot) can know his/her plane better and be more confident and less worried about not being prepared in case of a unforseen incident.

Frank
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Roland on June 04, 2006, 09:26:51 PM
@ happy: I’m afraid you’ve got the wrong idea about aerobatics. This is not Frecce Tri Colore only. Aerobatics is done in gliders as well. And that is not really Formula 1 in aviation, is it? Aerobatics is something different to so called normal flying. And I think you should go for it. On whatever plane. Try it on a Blanik glider. Its hard enough. To do aerobatics you don’t need a Extra 300 on the first place.
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Mike on June 04, 2006, 10:26:36 PM
@ happy: I’m afraid you’ve got the wrong idea about aerobatics. This is not Frecce Tri Colore only. Aerobatics is done in gliders as well. And that is not really Formula 1 in aviation, is it? Aerobatics is something different to so called normal flying. And I think you should go for it. On whatever plane. Try it on a Blanik glider. Its hard enough. To do aerobatics you don’t need a Extra 300 on the first place.

Well as long as we're comparing: An Extra would be like a Formula 1 car and probably not the best to start with.

How about some loops and rolls in a Decathlon or something to start off easy...

...and then you can work your way into the BO105 slowly but surely.... ;)
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: happylanding on June 05, 2006, 09:58:55 AM
@ happy: I’m afraid you’ve got the wrong idea about aerobatics. This is not Frecce Tri Colore only. Aerobatics is done in gliders as well. And that is not really Formula 1 in aviation, is it? Aerobatics is something different to so called normal flying. And I think you should go for it. On whatever plane. Try it on a Blanik glider. Its hard enough. To do aerobatics you don’t need a Extra 300 on the first place.

Well as long as we're comparing: An Extra would be like a Formula 1 car and probably not the best to start with.

How about some loops and rolls in a Decathlon or something to start off easy...

...and then you can work your way into the BO105 slowly but surely.... ;)

Mates, it's highly possible that I've a wrong idea: all could depend from the fact that the only time I went with a pilot who was doing it, I just had 1 hr logged and still could not “understand” flight, so the pilot – in my mind – was a………wizard. Then when I asked the people in the school where I did my PPL, they immediately said “gorgeous idea to do an aerobatic extension, gives you more familiarity with the aircraft”, and I thought it was just pure……marketing. And 3rd when I told my parents (with whom I still live, considered that I finished the studies one month ago) about the desire of doing it, they went crazy mad, saying it was out of discussion til “…….forever or maybe ten years, when you will have enough skills!”, because it is highly dangerous. At the end, you all confirm me this, my point of view got lost, blurred. On my side I just remember that the day I was inside the cockpit, while the pilot was doing it, I never felt so free (like being part of a world you’re not supposed to belong to…..I do not know if anyone among you ever tried scuba diving, but one think is being just underwater breathing, another thing is swimming with mantas and turtles…but the idea is this one, more or less) and never had so much fun. At the end I did not know anymore who was right……..and if I was just being stubborn and careless as my parents thought….  :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Frank N. O. on June 05, 2006, 11:06:00 AM
Just for the record, I was the one that mentioned the Extra 300 and that was actually to say that she could indeed start gently with aerobatics, meaning that she could start with it on a low level and work up from there so she shouldn't worry about not having enough hours, as long as the instructor was good. You can do racing in a 1.4 Peugeot if you will, you're not going to win at Le Mans but you can still drive a race, or rather rally, there are several 106 1.4's doing small local rally-races here. I hope I've explained my post that was intended to be helpful.

Btw Happy, in case you wonder why Mike mentioned a BO105 and you haven't already, then look at the helicopter stunt-video I posted in the forum and you'll see what one of those can do :D

Frank
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: happylanding on June 05, 2006, 11:31:37 AM

Btw Happy, in case you wonder why Mike mentioned a BO105 and you haven't already, then look at the helicopter stunt-video I posted in the forum and you'll see what one of those can do :D

Frank

Frank, I'm looking for it, but I can't find it. :(
Isn't it a risk, BTW? Doesn't it mean that after having seen it I will think also about getting a helicopter license?!?!?!?!?
I'm quite excitable when it comes to flight, you know?!?!?!?!  :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Frank N. O. on June 05, 2006, 11:35:52 AM
Third thread from the top of the aviation forum: http://www.chickenwingscomics.com/forum/index.php?topic=101.0

True about the risks of watching the video, but you know what a great damper is? Not having money! (I don't know wether to put a laughing or crying smilie here since there are both good and awful sides to this).

Frank
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: happylanding on June 05, 2006, 12:51:04 PM
HAHA!! that's right.........a good way to remember me I must find a work ASAP, since my student's life is actually over!  :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Mike on June 05, 2006, 09:39:39 PM
Did I tell you guys that Red Bull here in the US bought two of those BO105's and is now trying to get an aerobatics team together to show this off in the states as well?
I translated a bunch of stuff for them from German to English because they had to prove to the FAA that this is normal to do in this type of aircraft. I am friends with the guy who will fly them in the show and put this program together for them.
And his name is.... naturally...
>
>
>
>CHUCK !!!      HA HA ! :D

We are making a decal of our Chuck for him because he wants to put it on the pilot side door!! Cool, huh?!
Chuck actually went to Germany to train with the pilot you see in the video. Obviously he was very imressed with the guys skills and what the machine can do....
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: happylanding on June 06, 2006, 07:34:52 PM
Did I tell you guys that Red Bull here in the US bought two of those BO105's and is now trying to get an aerobatics team together to show this off in the states as well?
I translated a bunch of stuff for them from German to English because they had to prove to the FAA that this is normal to do in this type of aircraft. I am friends with the guy who will fly them in the show and put this program together for them.
And his name is.... naturally...
>
>
>
>CHUCK !!!      HA HA ! :D

We are making a decal of our Chuck for him because he wants to put it on the pilot side door!! Cool, huh?!
Chuck actually went to Germany to train with the pilot you see in the video. Obviously he was very imressed with the guys skills and what the machine can do....


HAHA! that's for sure a must see! And a wonderful promo, for sure!!! But are you kidding or was I misunderstood??? You also mean that the pilot's name (in real life at least) is Chuck? BTW, is there some pilot here also addicted to RedBull (what you drink I mean?!?) or is it just a student's wake up..............mixture!?!?!
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: SteepTurn on June 06, 2006, 08:24:19 PM
BTW, is there some pilot here also addicted to RedBull (what you drink I mean?!?) or is it just a student's wake up..............mixture!?!?!

RedBull? Never ever! I hate this stuff!!! Probably I'm too old for this 8)

But I hope to own one day my plane to put on something from chickenwing!!!!!!!
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Mike on June 07, 2006, 12:30:18 AM
Did I tell you guys that Red Bull here in the US bought two of those BO105's and is now trying to get an aerobatics team together to show this off in the states as well?
I translated a bunch of stuff for them from German to English because they had to prove to the FAA that this is normal to do in this type of aircraft. I am friends with the guy who will fly them in the show and put this program together for them.
And his name is.... naturally...
>
>
>
>CHUCK !!!      HA HA ! :D

We are making a decal of our Chuck for him because he wants to put it on the pilot side door!! Cool, huh?!
Chuck actually went to Germany to train with the pilot you see in the video. Obviously he was very imressed with the guys skills and what the machine can do....


HAHA! that's for sure a must see! And a wonderful promo, for sure!!! But are you kidding or was I misunderstood??? You also mean that the pilot's name (in real life at least) is Chuck? BTW, is there some pilot here also addicted to RedBull (what you drink I mean?!?) or is it just a student's wake up..............mixture!?!?!

Yeah that's right. Chuck is his real name.
He came up to me one day and said: "Hey, is this supposed to be me?"
In reality about 50% of Chucks looks and behavior is based on him for many many reasons but I told him: "Uhm...no, not really. There might be SOME of you in there" thinking he is getting mad at me...

but then he said "that would be really cool if it was me, I want a sticker of Chuck on my helo!"
Turns out he was all excited about it.

btw I like RedBull and drank a lot of it in school, but I don't do it so much anymore. You have to watch out with caffeine in the dessert. It makes you dehydrated really quick....
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Stef on June 07, 2006, 01:21:32 PM
btw I like RedBull and drank a lot of it in school, but I don't do it so much anymore. You have to watch out with caffeine in the dessert. It makes you dehydrated really quick....

HAHA! That's a funny typo! Then just avoid coffee chocolate for dessert!  ;) ;D

I never drank much Red Bull... I use it as a drug to wake me up, so if I drank it too much, it wouldn't work when I really need it (like any other drug). I use e.g. it if I go long distances by car.
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Frank N. O. on June 15, 2006, 10:27:41 PM
Oh dear, a stunt-pilot called Chuck and he wan't Chuck as a mascot on the side lol.

Btw is the Bo-105 the most maneuverable helicopter around? And where does the Gazelle, Lynx, Tiger, Apache and Hokum sit in comparisom?

Frank
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: tundra_flier on August 11, 2006, 11:29:04 PM
Happy, I was fortunate enough to learn to fly in a Citabria 7GCBC and get some entry level aerobatics in the mix.  So I've done spins, loops, wingovers and lots of different unusual additude training manuvers. 

To date the most difficult and dangerous manuver I've ever done is a cross wind landing.  Low, slow and cross controlled all at the same time, talk about a set up for a crash!  Aerobatics are only dangerous when done low.  Just keep lots of sky under you and you'll be fine.

Incidently, my Cessna 150 is actually far more manuverable, with lighter controls than the Citabria was, the Citabria is just designed for more G force.  I'd love to get my hands on a nice 150 Aerobat.  ;D

Phil
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: fireflyr on August 12, 2006, 02:19:24 AM
 

To date the most difficult and dangerous manuver I've ever done is a cross wind landing.  Low, slow and cross controlled all at the same time, talk about a set up for a crash!  Aerobatics are only dangerous when done low.  Just keep lots of sky under you and you'll be fine.

Incidently, my Cessna 150 is actually far more manuverable, with lighter controls than the Citabria was, the Citabria is just designed for more G force.  I'd love to get my hands on a nice 150 Aerobat.  ;D

Phil
Phil, I've only flown a Citabria a couple of times and I had my wife with me so 30% bank turns were about the max but I have done some aerobatics in a Decathlon and a 150 Aerobat.  Liked them both, the inverted work in the Decathlon was better but I can't really comment on the controls.
Being  low, slow, and cross controlled isn't dangerous if you're paying attention to airspeed.
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: happylanding on August 15, 2006, 09:30:54 PM
Happy, I was fortunate enough to learn to fly in a Citabria 7GCBC and get some entry level aerobatics in the mix.  So I've done spins, loops, wingovers and lots of different unusual additude training manuvers. 

To date the most difficult and dangerous manuver I've ever done is a cross wind landing.  Low, slow and cross controlled all at the same time, talk about a set up for a crash!  Aerobatics are only dangerous when done low.  Just keep lots of sky under you and you'll be fine.


Phil, that's a good point of view! I won't start saying it at home loud by the way, otherwise my parents change their ideas about me go flying and prefer me at home......knitting! :) :) I was to the airport yesterday and talked to an instructor of the school where I learnt flying. it could be that during this August, but more probably in September, he can give me the needed lessons to have an extension on the Pilatus P3. that means, in my plan, that I will after have a retractable gear and "not fixed" propeller (what's the right name?!?!? variable pitch, pace??!? no idea about the translation, sorry!) on an interesting aircraft. and a first step to build up for aerobatics extension, that will come as soon as I can pay for it! :) :)
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: tundra_flier on August 16, 2006, 04:11:58 PM
Quote
Being  low, slow, and cross controlled isn't dangerous if you're paying attention to airspeed.

You didn't see the cross wind landing I made at the end of my solo cross country. Almost got really ugly, only saving grace was that I had a dirt runway to use.  I'd have ground looped that one hard if it'd been tarmack.  Wind was 17kts perpendicular to the runway, with gusts above that.  Had to taxi back with the brakes as the gusts kept unlocking the tailwheel.  Compared to that, spins and loops are easy!   ;)

Phil
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: cj5_pilot on October 08, 2006, 11:47:01 PM
Go for it.  It will really teach you about your airplane.  I was lucky enough to spend 45 minutes in a T-6 and do some aerobatics (video posted in the interesting video thread) and I LOVED it!  I've hung my headsets up (sorta) for a bit while I decide what direction I want to go with jobs and such, but I plan to get more formal instruction in aerobatics.  There is a guy in Anchorage with a Super Dec that does aerobatic instruction.  His company name is "Unusual Attitudes"  ;D  The book "Emergency Manuever Training" by Rich Stowell is an excellent primer.  It discusses in detail how to do the manuevers as well as the forces involved, etc.  It's a bit technical in places but not to bad.  Tundra gave me a copy for Christmas a few years back.

As for what aircraft I'd want, well that's a tough choice.  There are plenty of Aerobats and Citabria and Decathalons out there, but I'd like something...sportier.  Until Tundra told me Rans quit producing kits I was looking at the S-9 Chaos and the S-10 Sakota. 

http://www.rans.com/s-9.htm
http://www.rans.com/s-10.htm

Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Turbomallard on October 09, 2006, 12:07:13 AM
When Rans announced the discontinuance of those and other models a while back, they also stated that they still had some kits still available... you may want to contact them and ask. Can't hurt! If they ever put the S-11 into production, I'd be drooling... but it's probably never going to see the light of day again. Sigh.

TM
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: cj5_pilot on October 09, 2006, 12:44:04 AM
I had thought of calling to see if any where left available.  But if I bought the kit right now my wife would kill me--I haven't finished the tub swap on the CJ-7 yet and she's really happy I just sold the CJ-5  :'(  After I get that tub on and the -7 back on the road MAYBE I could sneak a kit in to the garage before she shoots me  ;)  And she's pretty good with that S&W 686!
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Turbomallard on October 09, 2006, 01:27:01 AM
On the contrary, this turn of events gives you the perfect excuse!!! If you're going to get one of these, the time is NOW before they run out...  ;D

Back to the basement to see if the vertical stab skin fits on the framework I just completed... gulp.

TM
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: tundra_flier on October 10, 2006, 05:47:54 AM
I had thought of calling to see if any where left available.  But if I bought the kit right now my wife would kill me--I haven't finished the tub swap on the CJ-7 yet and she's really happy I just sold the CJ-5  :'(  After I get that tub on and the -7 back on the road MAYBE I could sneak a kit in to the garage before she shoots me  ;)  And she's pretty good with that S&W 686!

Just tell her all the money you saved since it was a "discontinued, clearance price".  ;)
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: kkrummy1 on October 19, 2006, 05:44:06 PM
As you can see from my avitar I love aerobatics both in the "real thing" and flying R/C.  Anything you can do, which will make you more familiar with the aircraft, is GOOD!
As to the Red Bull thing, I had an interesting experience a few months back. I was asked to do an aerobatics demo at the Radio Control air races in Ohio and took my R/C Extra 330S up to do the show.  Red Bull was one of the sponsors so I had a couple of them before the demo.  The demo went well, which is to say I didn't scare myself too bad, but as I flew the landing pattern my thumb began to shake uncontrollably!  I aborted the approach went up and did a couple of rolls to calm myself down and then landed normally.  Haven't had it happen since, and havn't had a Red Bull since.  Wonder if I was suffering form a caffiene high?  Any thoughts? ???
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Baradium on October 19, 2006, 09:58:14 PM
Red Bull has a LOT of stuff in it.  Read the ingredients list sometime and you might not ever drink one again.   The top 5 ingredients are either types of sugar or caffiene IIRC.     I had a few sips of one once and didn't like it and it made me feel weird...
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on October 24, 2006, 08:22:47 PM
I think you REALLY have to like caffeine in order to drink that stuff.
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: undatc on December 09, 2006, 08:34:24 PM
I dunno if you're still looking at getting your aerobatics endorsment, but go for it.  Here we have lots of guys get their rating with less than 100 total.  I actually was planing on getting mine soon, maybe, if i can land.  We train in a super decathalon, not the prettiest of planes, but none the less, a lot of fun.
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Frank N. O. on December 13, 2006, 05:37:54 AM
I was just wondering, how big is a Decathlon's cabin anyway? They have one at Roskilde Airport where several flight schools as well as taxi companies are but I doubt my shoulders and legs would fit in one judging from what I've seen, also in the movie Iron Eagle btw (I think it was the same fuselage at least if not model).

Frank
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: TheSoccerMom on December 13, 2006, 07:29:36 AM
Dear Happy,   :D

Just my two cents' worth...  I'd go for it!!  The value of what you learn, and experience, will just add on to what you have already learned about flying.  It's not like waiting another 100 hours would make a big difference, really...  it's an experience that is helpful.  Try it, enjoy it, and then maybe try it again when you DO have some more time.

I'm not good at wording this, sorry, but I feel it is one of the nice things about flying..  no matter when/where/how you are exposed to something, you can always learn and gain from it.  Besides -- it'd be a BLAST!!!  AND -- you could tell US all about it!!   ;) 

The Soccer Mom***   8)
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: happylanding on December 13, 2006, 08:46:24 AM
I'll say that in the new year's resolutions, it is in (along with manucure, Soccermom!  :) )!
I have to be patient tough, because I currently do not have the money to do it, since I'm using all my savings to pay the courses I'm taking of arabic.
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on December 13, 2006, 06:20:10 PM
I was just wondering, how big is a Decathlon's cabin anyway? They have one at Roskilde Airport where several flight schools as well as taxi companies are but I doubt my shoulders and legs would fit in one judging from what I've seen, also in the movie Iron Eagle btw (I think it was the same fuselage at least if not model).

Frank

I thought that was a C-150 in Iron Eagle.  I'm sure you'd fit in a Decathalon, Frank.  It's a tandem seat like a Super Cub or a Champ.  The only tough thing is getting out in a hurry, no matter what size you are.   ;)
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Frank N. O. on December 13, 2006, 06:45:31 PM
Doug Masters flew a Cessna Aerobat (from what I heard, it was in reality flown by Art Scholl just before the fatal filming for Top Gun) but two of Doug's friends flew as observers for the rules of the race, each in their own plane and with one of the biker's friends as co-observers, one plane was a Tomahawk, the other was a Decathlon looking thing.

And thanks for the reply :)

Frank
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on December 13, 2006, 07:31:57 PM
I see.  Great knowledge of a cheesy, obscure 80's flying movie, btw. |:)\
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Frank N. O. on December 13, 2006, 07:37:36 PM
LOL it was the time I grew up and those were the glory years for me and many other things, just ask me questions about a DeLorean DMC-12 which I was introduced to from Back to the Future, I can talk your ears off about knowledge about it :D
Actually what I liked about Iron Eagle was mainly that canyon flight and not really the dogfight scenes afterwards.

Frank
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Frank N. O. on December 29, 2006, 07:48:08 AM
Speaking of which, I found this clip, how the heck can one get a Tommy to do that? I didn't think a small normal GA could roll that fast?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=381018339419395735&q=Iron+Eagle

Frank
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: undatc on December 29, 2006, 09:58:29 AM
Ahhh yea, the wonder of positive G loading.  Its actually possiable to barrel roll any aircraft if you can keep only poitive G's on the airframe, thats the tricky part.  Tex Johnson actually did a barrel roll with a boeing 707 over lake Washington here in Seattle.  Dunno when this was, must be mid 50's sometime.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7169720963232435934&q=707+roll
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Baradium on December 29, 2006, 07:15:20 PM
Ahhh yea, the wonder of positive G loading.  Its actually possiable to barrel roll any aircraft if you can keep only poitive G's on the airframe, thats the tricky part.  Tex Johnson actually did a barrel roll with a boeing 707 over lake Washington here in Seattle.  Dunno when this was, must be mid 50's sometime.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7169720963232435934&q=707+roll

Havn't watched the video, but is that the one on one of the initial 707 test flights?  I was a aware they did a barrel roll on one of those...
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Panzerrat on December 29, 2006, 08:35:27 PM
Tex rolled the 707 Dash 80 over Lake Washington during SeaFair, a big celebration up here.  He got a bit of a dressing down from the CEO of Boeing, but apparently the Air Force was impressed enough to buy the 707s to convert into KC-135s.  BTW, that very aircraft was flow to D.C. back in 2003 and now resides in the Smithsonian.
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Baradium on December 30, 2006, 09:36:43 AM
Tex rolled the 707 Dash 80 over Lake Washington during SeaFair, a big celebration up here.  He got a bit of a dressing down from the CEO of Boeing, but apparently the Air Force was impressed enough to buy the 707s to convert into KC-135s.  BTW, that very aircraft was flow to D.C. back in 2003 and now resides in the Smithsonian.

If what I found before was correct, KC135s didn't come from 707 airframe though.  They were designed at the same time from the same prototype design, but both designs are quite different.

In fact, the wings and the fuselage are quite different between the two.    That stunt might have sparked the air force to continue the project, but the actual design is as much a 707 as a cardinal 177 is a 172.   Similiarities but pretty far from the same aircraft and not a conversion from one of the two designs.
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Panzerrat on December 30, 2006, 04:31:00 PM
True, but the Dash 80 isn't really a 707, either.  Still, it's the basic wing design...  I think.  There is certainly a very similar look.
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Baradium on December 31, 2006, 08:14:31 AM
True, but the Dash 80 isn't really a 707, either.  Still, it's the basic wing design...  I think.  There is certainly a very similar look.

One of the biggest differences between the two is the wing.  ;)

They angle is very different, a lot sharper rake to the KC-135.  I also think the whole design is different to accomodate the mission (needs a stall speed lower than the Vne of the slowest aircraft in arsenal and higher than the stall speed of the fastest (at the time the SR-71 I imagine).
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Panzerrat on December 31, 2006, 08:41:10 AM
Ah well, I've stood next to the Dash 80 before she left Seattle a few years back, and I've flown in a few 707s.  Guess I just never looked hard enough.  Such is life.
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Frank N. O. on January 01, 2007, 02:57:31 PM
What a comparisom, there are big differences aerodynamically between the Skyhawk and Cardinal according to every bit of info I've ever found.

About the maneuver then I was wondering since I couldn't get a commercial Tommy FS add-on to even come close to that kind of roll-rate regardless of what speed I flew at, of course I'd rather belive real stuntflying than a sim for what is possible and what is not, but until I can get the chance to fly for real then flightsims are all I have so I'm trying to see what in a sim I can trust. Can a Commander or Cardinal do a roll as easily and fast as that too without damage?

Frank
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: fireflyr on January 01, 2007, 03:09:58 PM
Can a Commander or Cardinal do a roll as easily and fast as that too without damage?

Frank
NO ::wave::
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Frank N. O. on January 01, 2007, 03:23:53 PM
I didn't think so, I wonder how come such a little Piper can do it then though, I didn't really think a Commander or Cardinal were such trucks.

Frank
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: fireflyr on January 01, 2007, 04:19:37 PM
I didn't think so, I wonder how come such a little Piper can do it then though, I didn't really think a Commander or Cardinal were such trucks.

Frank
Let me change that last answer to a yes----I was suffering from rectal/cranial inversion at the moment---that actually was a very slow roll rate in the video (compared to something like an Extra 300 @ 420 degrees per second) ::type::
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Frank N. O. on January 01, 2007, 04:30:33 PM
Hmmm, I'm starting to think I should stop using FS and learn aviation in the real world instead, I also think even a small Cessna in real life is cooler than sitting behind a desk flying a Corsair on a tv screen with a joystick. I get a lot more into things when I'm actually there as opposed to just imagining it. It's also cool to see a real Catalina, Starfighter, Caravelle III, DC-3 etc. in a museum hangar than flying them on a home computer (these planes are all in a museum north of Copenhagen and you can walk right up and touch them or get inside them too!).

Frank
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: fireflyr on January 01, 2007, 05:18:11 PM
I concur, Frank |:)\
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: tundra_flier on January 01, 2007, 09:19:44 PM
What a comparisom, there are big differences aerodynamically between the Skyhawk and Cardinal according to every bit of info I've ever found.

About the maneuver then I was wondering since I couldn't get a commercial Tommy FS add-on to even come close to that kind of roll-rate regardless of what speed I flew at, of course I'd rather belive real stuntflying than a sim for what is possible and what is not, but until I can get the chance to fly for real then flightsims are all I have so I'm trying to see what in a sim I can trust. Can a Commander or Cardinal do a roll as easily and fast as that too without damage?

Frank

Frank, most of the downloadable flight sim aircraft are just another aircraft model with a different grafics package.  I've downloaded 3 different ones for Cessna 150's to try and simulate cross countries before doing them for real, and all of them had the exact same performance, specs and handling as the C-172 that came with MS Flight sim.  Even the cockpit views were identical.  Just different exterior graphics.  So the Tramahawk ones your trying were probably just Cherokees or C-172's with different graphics too.

Phil
Title: Re: aerobatics
Post by: Frank N. O. on January 01, 2007, 09:36:38 PM
Maybe. It was Just Flight's Tomahawk from the Flying Club pack in a 30-day limited trial version, it was on a demo CD I got sent for free (including a free Spitfire :D). Real Air Simulations were commission by a New Zeeland flying school to make a new livery and physics for the default Skyhawk so it would now spin and sideslip which the original couldn't and generally then Real Air Simulations are one of a few that are known to be able to create air-files that really do make the plane react similarly to the real thing, also a group that makes classic warbirds I just can't remember their name. I actually emailed Real Air and asked about a air-file for a Cardinal but he replied back saying that I probably knew more about it than he did since it was completely different in handling than the Skyhawk and they hadn't planned on making one anytime soon, and that was a few years ago.

Another forum had a review of the AOPA commissioned FS2004 Rockwell Commander 112, identical to the real life one they raffled away, and the poster said that the handling wasn't close to the real thing (he was appearently a real life pilot) so all in all it sounded like it would be a waste of money to buy it, even with sim controls. FS2004 has licensed Garmin panels, a small and big one and from what it looks like now then that's all I can use MSFS for, but Garmin themselves released a training program a while ago and that was free to download as opposed to forking out a fair bit of dosh for MSFS.

One of the best ways to learn would probably be following on several flights, also in preperation, service etc. but with my size and weight then that'd not be very practical, and then there's the matter of being in the wrong part of he world but I'm not giving up yet until someone can clearly prove to me that I can't do it. I just gotta get that new car chosen and bought and then focus on seeing what I can do, all those stories from Mike, Jim, Soccermom, Happy etc. etc. only keep motivating me.

Frank
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