Inflight Entertainment => The missing link => Topic started by: Mike on May 27, 2006, 05:36:41 AM
Title: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Mike on May 27, 2006, 05:36:41 AM
Sleek Jet just posted a link to our website in the AOPA forum. (Thanks again, btw |:)\ ) And when I was checking out who else all posted in this thread I stumbled upon this awesome website which I am sure is great for young and coming pilots so I want to share this here with you.
Check it out: http://www.liveatc.net/
What I will recommend to my students who have a hard time with radio procedures is to just turn on one of the approaches and just have it on all day while you're working on the computer to just get used to the constant radio traffic. I even enjoy having it on while I am typing this (which means something since I have listened to loooooots of ATC calls already in my career.... ;D )
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 27, 2006, 03:38:01 PM
That's pretty cool...
Airmet for strong mountain wave activity and trubulence for so-cal from what I hear. :D |:)\
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Mike on May 27, 2006, 10:38:40 PM
Yup, It's true! I just flew from VNY to VGT (North Las Vegas) and got hit with bumps so hard my transmission light came on for a sec. Must have sucked all the oil out of the sump for a moment. It was exciting. I would be scared to fly in this with anything else but an Astar. What a great machine for flying in turbulence! It's so gusty here in Vegas my blade tie-downs wouldn't stay on so I had to help them out with some electrical tape. I hope it holds....
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 27, 2006, 10:45:43 PM
Good old North Town... I used to fly in there once a month. Once, when they had runway 7 closed while runway 30R was being constructed, had to land in a direct 25 kt cross wind... lots 'o fun.
Did the cafe ever open back up??? ???
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Frank N. O. on May 27, 2006, 10:47:13 PM
I've heard some of that from another site some years ago and I could barely understand one word. Now I heard that the slow speed used in the computer ATC in MSFS2004 would get you in big trouble in the real world, but do you really have to be able to understand that mumble, at least when you "just" fly a single-engine GA plane?
Another question, did turbulence activate the radio-transmit button or what did I miss? And doesn't aircraft engines have dry-sump lubrication (pump instead of gravity circulation).
Frank
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Mike on May 28, 2006, 03:07:33 AM
Another question, did turbulence activate the radio-transmit button or what did I miss? And doesn't aircraft engines have dry-sump lubrication (pump instead of gravity circulation).
Frank
I was talking about the main rotor transmission and the light itself wasn't all that exciting, just the turbulence. Must have been a sudden surge in the MRXMSN pump.
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Roland on May 28, 2006, 09:22:27 PM
Another question, did turbulence activate the radio-transmit button or what did I miss? And doesn't aircraft engines have dry-sump lubrication (pump instead of gravity circulation).
Frank
I was talking about the main rotor transmission and the light itself wasn't all that exciting, just the turbulence. Must have been a sudden surge in the MRXMSN pump.
@ Frank: Most gearboxes are not dry-sump type but sump-type. That means all the oil is collected on the bottom of the gearbox where it is sucked up by the pump and pressed and sprayed around.
While flying through turbulences oil can be thrown up to the cover of the gearbox and the pump sucks … nothing. The pressure transmitter, placed right behind the pump senses … nothing and a light goes on. As long as this situation is for a short while there is no reason to do anything but get out of the turbulence. Not for the oil in the gearbox but for the sick passenger on the next (rear) seat. ;)
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Zaffex on May 28, 2006, 09:54:34 PM
another compliment to the Live ATC is http://flightaware.com. It shows info on all the commercial and IFR-scheduled flights around an airport, so you can listen in and see where they are in relation to the airport at the same time. I think you just click on a link to it inside the radio boxes on Live ATC.
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Mike on May 28, 2006, 09:59:21 PM
While flying through turbulences oil can be thrown up to the cover of the gearbox and the pump sucks … nothing. The pressure transmitter, placed right behind the pump senses … nothing and a light goes on. As long as this situation is for a short while there is no reason to do anything but get out of the turbulence. Not for the oil in the gearbox but for the sick passenger on the next (rear) seat. ;)
Yeah, there is nothing like that sudden sinking feeling you get when the PAX sitting behind you just puked on your neck and down the collar.... ;) :(
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: fireflyr on May 29, 2006, 02:00:22 AM
Yeah, there is nothing like that sudden sinking feeling you get when the PAX sitting behind you just puked on your neck and down the collar.... ;) :(
Quote
That's when you gotta be cool and macho by talking about the greasy eggs and bacon you had for breakfast--don't ever let some puke tosser let you feeling sorry for him/her. ;D
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on May 29, 2006, 03:25:31 AM
flightaware also lets you track any tail number on an IFR flight. It's pretty cool.
@ Frank: You can't really get in trouble for speaking too slow on the radio. They'll just ignore you or put you in a half-hour holding pattern. ;) If you don't understand something they say, all you have to do is ask them to repeat it. You do have to do what they say, though, unless you can't or feel their instructions will put you in jeopardy.
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: fireflyr on May 29, 2006, 05:48:40 AM
This thread reminds me of a time back in the early 80s when I was coming out of OAK and a lady controller was pretty swamped and she was issuing clearances at about a thousand words a minute with gusts to fifteen hundred when a Delta pilot came on in his best basso profundo saying something like"Bay approach-----Delta 1234--- Maam---------ya'll hear how fast I'm talkin'?-----------Well, that's about how fast I kin listen---------Say again please!" There was a moments pause and she came back slower but rather sarcastic too. Not gut busting funny now---------guess you had to been there! :-\
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Roland on May 29, 2006, 09:08:21 AM
I hear it, I really can hear it. :D
On the second seat of a helicopter one can hear the radio conversations. Especially helicopter pilots, flying wood logs and sometimes cows out of the mountains are sh!t frightened to talk to any ATC. :-X
And here in Europe the whole lot sounds so unnatural as well (except UK ATC, of course. But fly over France …) and some try to show of the even better English than the counterpart. Sometimes it is just awful. One can hear the young trainees with their clear, slow voices, unsure and being ignored and handled as super-stupid. Unfair, really unfair. But “listen to the radio” helps a lot indeed. It helps to enter the phraseology.
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Mike on May 30, 2006, 04:55:19 AM
HA HA!!! That's a good one, Jim!!! ;) :D I can also totally hear it!
I agree with both of you guys. Europe does seem weird on the radio. I knew I was in trouble and might never be able to go back the day a flight attendant friend of mine hooked me up with a jump seat on an Austrian Airlines Jet on my way home and I understood everything they said leaving Washington DC (actually helped them out during a Clearance Delivery Issue) and then couldn't figure out what's going on over German airspace..... ;)
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: fireflyr on May 30, 2006, 08:56:37 AM
HA HA!!! That's a good one, Jim!!! ;) :D I can also totally hear it!
I agree with both of you guys. Europe does seem weird on the radio. I knew I was in trouble and might never be able to go back the day a flight attendant friend of mine hooked me up with a jump seat on an Austrian Airlines Jet on my way home and I understood everything they said leaving Washington DC (actually helped them out during a Clearance Delivery Issue) and then couldn't figure out what's going on over German airspace..... ;)
Thanks guy. You know, I hadn't given the language issue much thought but now that you mention it I recall hearing hearing Japanese students on frequency who were having a hell of a time trying to understand ATC controllers who were issuing some long instructions. My hat is off to all of you who are learning to fly and have the double burden of having to speak on the radio in something other than your mother tongue! On another note, I've been very sick with the floomuckle crud ( ;D a name of my own invention) for the last 2 weeks and unable to fly due to head congestion, taking enough drugs to stun a horse, and laryngitis. My voice is almost back and today a friend called to ask if I could fly down and pick him up in San Jose, well I says "sure thing" and off to the local aerodrome I trot and rent me an aeroplane, forgetting that ye olde voice ain't quite up to par. Everything is fine till I enter the San Francisco class B airspace and I'm talking to NorCal approach and the controller is asking me to repeat my request because my radio is "really scratchy" well, my radio kept getting "scratchier" as I went along until I was conversing in loud whispers by the time I got to Reid Hillview tower. My friend handled the radios on the trip back and I learned yet another lesson in pushing your limitations--it was good to be back in the air though!
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on June 25, 2006, 05:36:13 PM
When I started flying at UND, we had a contract with the Chinese government to train their pilots (they were the only ones that could afford the Beechjets). A buddy of mine was up one time when the tower at Grand Forks just cleared everyone out of the pattern because a Chinese student couldn't understand his clearance. All he could say was "roger", but he never deviated from his course to the airport.
Another time, a Chinese student had an engine issue and landed off airport. As he was on the phone with the SOF, he figured out that the plane would work if the fuel pump was on, so he told the SOF that he would be taking off, then hung up as the SOF is screaming at him not to take off again. He stopped a car on the road and had the driver stop any traffic on the road so that he could leave. He was deported shortly after he got back to GFK.
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: cotejy on August 08, 2006, 02:42:44 PM
Thank you so much for the link. I now have an decent audio environement at work. ;D
I never went on airport where I had to speak English (except MF) so this site will help me with English terminology used at controled airport.
I think tomorrow, I'll bring my headsets to work so I'll have a better feeling. ;)
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: fireflyr on August 08, 2006, 03:04:07 PM
A buddy of mine was up one time when the tower at Grand Forks just cleared everyone out of the pattern because a Chinese student couldn't understand his clearance. All he could say was "roger", but he never deviated from his course to the airport.
I saw a few instances like that at San Bernardino with Japanese students--sometimes it was hilarious and sometimes it was scary. But I had to give them credit because my Japanese is nil! :o
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: cotejy on August 08, 2006, 03:24:34 PM
I'm currently listening to Toronto and I just realised how difficult it should be to deal with all the non English pilots. They have to speak with Japaneese, French, British,... pilots and they all have their own "way" of speaking English!
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: leiafee on August 09, 2006, 06:47:06 PM
I'm currently listening to Toronto and I just realised how difficult it should be to deal with all the non English pilots. They have to speak with Japaneese, French, British,... pilots and they all have their own "way" of speaking English!
We occasionally get Toronto breaking through on out local airfield frequency. Very very bizarre as we're the other side of the Atlantic!
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Baradium on September 03, 2006, 01:17:00 AM
I've heard some of that from another site some years ago and I could barely understand one word. Now I heard that the slow speed used in the computer ATC in MSFS2004 would get you in big trouble in the real world, but do you really have to be able to understand that mumble, at least when you "just" fly a single-engine GA plane?
Another question, did turbulence activate the radio-transmit button or what did I miss? And doesn't aircraft engines have dry-sump lubrication (pump instead of gravity circulation).
Frank
You'd better be able to talk to ATC if you're going to be in a situation where you need to! And if you're going on cross country flights in the US, flight following can be a lifesaver. Keep in mind that center isn't usually as fast and smaller controlled airports are slower as well because they have the time.
It's good to slowly progress. When I started I had no idea what they were saying at fast airports either, but it's a lot more natural now.
Here's a trick you can use if you really have problems. On initial contact, when you tell them aircraft type, add in the words "student pilot" at the end. ;) They'll talk a lot slower to you and hold your hand all the way in. :D
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: fireflyr on September 03, 2006, 03:49:40 PM
I've given some thought to this subject as I am very hard-of-hearing and a lot of the ability to understand ATC is being able to anticipate what they are probably going to say---like the flow of conversation on a particular subject. I also use a Bose headset which helps immensely>
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: happylanding on September 05, 2006, 10:38:33 PM
I've given some thought to this subject as I am very hard-of-hearing and a lot of the ability to understand ATC is being able to anticipate what they are probably going to say---like the flow of conversation on a particular subject. I also use a Bose headset which helps immensely>
I agree with you. whenever I go flying, not to be stressed up with ATC, I've a paper in front of me with all things that in a answer change, such as the outbound point, the route, if I've a fp, if transopnder is on, and the next extimated already calculated... No hassles anymore. I just know what to say by heart and fill the blanks reading the bites on my paper....
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: G-man on September 06, 2006, 02:19:05 AM
Another thing to remember is this...Most communication with ATC is started by you asking for something, taxi, take off etc. Most times you can have a pretty good idea what ATC will say back to you. With that in mind it is merely a question of listening for a known response. And always remember the phrase "say again". Like previous posters have said---ATC will always help you out if you say "Student Pilot". They will even let you visit the tower and explain the whole process to you......Don't forget to take donuts or candy......... 8)
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: fireflyr on September 06, 2006, 02:53:31 PM
Another thing to remember is this...Most communication with ATC is started by you asking for something, taxi, take off etc. Most times you can have a pretty good idea what ATC will say back to you. With that in mind it is merely a question of listening for a known response. And always remember the phrase "say again". Like previous posters have said---ATC will always help you out if you say "Student Pilot". They will even let you visit the tower and explain the whole process to you......Don't forget to take donuts or candy......... 8)
In this post 9/11 environment do they still allow tower visits?
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: G-man on September 07, 2006, 06:56:49 AM
Last I heard it was offand on. I think it varies depending upon the security status at the time. I know about a week ago anyone could visit a control tower as long as you called ahead, however, you have to be a US citizen to visit a tracon or radar facility.
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: happylanding on September 07, 2006, 06:58:27 AM
Last I heard it was offand on. I think it varies depending upon the security status at the time. I know about a week ago anyone could visit a control tower as long as you called ahead, however, you have to be a US citizen to visit a tracon or radar facility.
what do you mean by tracon? what is it? ??? I never heard that thing before ???
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Baradium on September 08, 2006, 06:00:24 AM
Last I heard it was offand on. I think it varies depending upon the security status at the time. I know about a week ago anyone could visit a control tower as long as you called ahead, however, you have to be a US citizen to visit a tracon or radar facility.
what do you mean by tracon? what is it? ??? I never heard that thing before ???
Those are the "center" controllers that you talk to en route or in the flight levels.
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: G-man on September 11, 2006, 12:54:46 AM
Sorry----Tracon stands for Terminal Radar Approach Control. http://www.faa.gov/ats/potomac/Tracon.htm
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: fireflyr on September 11, 2006, 01:21:00 AM
Last I heard it was offand on. I think it varies depending upon the security status at the time. I know about a week ago anyone could visit a control tower as long as you called ahead, however, you have to be a US citizen to visit a tracon or radar facility.
what do you mean by tracon? what is it? ??? I never heard that thing before ???
Those are the "center" controllers that you talk to en route or in the flight levels.
Whoa Baradium---- That's wrong :-[
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: fireflyr on September 11, 2006, 01:24:46 AM
WHOOPS---what Gman already said :D
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Baradium on September 11, 2006, 01:54:02 AM
You mean why did I give an incomplete answer? Because I posted a quick response because I was in a hurry and meant to come back to it later and I forgot about it...
Yeah, memory is going out in my old age....
:-[
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: fireflyr on September 12, 2006, 02:47:41 PM
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: chuckar101 on October 12, 2006, 08:47:42 PM
Just found this link and thanks Mike.
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: undatc on December 05, 2006, 08:34:02 PM
You're partly correct with the TRACON, however TRACON controllesr are vastly different and have a much harder job than their ARTCC (air route traffic control center) or as you know them, en route or tower counter parts.
Tracons work arrivals and departures out of main class B or C airports, sometime D's however your're usually just handed off to a center.
And you dont need to be a citizen, just call up the HR department of the center you want to visit a few weeks in advance, and youre good to go. I have visited many facilities in preparation of my graduation, in fact Ill be going to KSEA tower in two weeks :)
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: Baradium on December 05, 2006, 10:34:39 PM
You're partly correct with the TRACON, however TRACON controllesr are vastly different and have a much harder job than their ARTCC (air route traffic control center) or as you know them, en route or tower counter parts.
Tracons work arrivals and departures out of main class B or C airports, sometime D's however your're usually just handed off to a center.
D's have them when they are the center of a TRSA (pronounced tersa). For example, Fairbanks is a TRSA airport, specifically so aircraft without transponders can still operate from the airport without prior permission. This is the same reason Anchorage is a class C airport with a terminal area chart (only one in the nation IIRC), to allow aircraft to operate to the sattilite airports, such as lake hood (the world's largest seaplane base, which is right next to the terminal at Anchorage) without a transponder.
Quote
And you dont need to be a citizen, just call up the HR department of the center you want to visit a few weeks in advance, and youre good to go. I have visited many facilities in preparation of my graduation, in fact Ill be going to KSEA tower in two weeks :)
They back down from that rule? Last thing I had heard was when they decided citizens only.
Title: Re: Problems understanding ATC?
Post by: undatc on December 06, 2006, 12:08:25 AM
You're partly correct with the TRACON, however TRACON controllesr are vastly different and have a much harder job than their ARTCC (air route traffic control center) or as you know them, en route or tower counter parts.
Tracons work arrivals and departures out of main class B or C airports, sometime D's however your're usually just handed off to a center.
D's have them when they are the center of a TRSA (pronounced tersa). For example, Fairbanks is a TRSA airport, specifically so aircraft without transponders can still operate from the airport without prior permission. This is the same reason Anchorage is a class C airport with a terminal area chart (only one in the nation IIRC), to allow aircraft to operate to the sattilite airports, such as lake hood (the world's largest seaplane base, which is right next to the terminal at Anchorage) without a transponder.
Quote
And you dont need to be a citizen, just call up the HR department of the center you want to visit a few weeks in advance, and youre good to go. I have visited many facilities in preparation of my graduation, in fact Ill be going to KSEA tower in two weeks :)
They back down from that rule? Last thing I had heard was when they decided citizens only.
Yea, I know Fargo has a TRSA that we deal with when we fly here a lot. However a lot of D's also have them when they are near an AFB. Here at Grand Forks, the AF is about 5 miles West of us and we use their RAPCON for approach and departure.
