Roost Air Lounge => Aviation related topics => Topic started by: Mike on November 01, 2009, 06:10:09 PM
Title: Another airport about to be shut down?
Post by: Mike on November 01, 2009, 06:10:09 PM
Am I the only one who is getting tired of people moving next to an airport and then complain about the noise? ::sulk::
The North Las Vegas airport has gone through a rough patch the last couple of months when 2 planes almost in the same week fell short of the runway and crashed into a neigborhood. Now "the public" and residents close to the airport are getting really worried about "all that air traffic" and once again the discussions flared up again when a home built airplane made an emergency landing in a Las Vegas street. Of course the news interviewed random neighbors who we have never heard before and who are not involved in aviation and the lady they interviewed stated that "she lives right underneath the approach path and is very worried about every plane that flies over her house...." I say: Are you kidding me ? ? ? ::complaining: ::loony:: ::complaining: ::banghead:: ::banghead::
The approach path of this airport was there BEFORE she moved in this house, and it was there BEFORE the house was built. This can NOT me a surprise!! And this can NOT be something she never thought about until AFTER the first emergency landing!!!
Is there a website where pilots can fight for their airports?
I get so tired of these discussions and of the news seemingly backing the residents almost every time. They never mention that people got their houses over there really cheap and almost every news channel has helicopters which also need to take off from SOMEWHERE?!?! right?!
Title: Re: Another airport about to be shut down?
Post by: Oddball on November 01, 2009, 06:19:46 PM
Load of crap if you ask me. They must of moved in with full knowledge of the airport near by? or did their estate agent cover up the fact? even models are being complained about, get the feeling our new neighbours will be complaining about us soon.
Title: Re: Another airport about to be shut down?
Post by: 4X-NTY on November 01, 2009, 06:47:50 PM
Ah... if things are going in the US the same the go in Israel then you should expect the airport to become temporary,for atleast 50 years.
We got an airport called Herzliya (LLHZ),it's been here since around 1935,used by the brits when Herzliya (the city,not the airport),used to be a small town and pretty far from the airport himself,the town started to grow into a city,and around the 1960 it reached the airport,and now the airport is surrounded by houses,most of their residents commenting on every aviation-related article on the net that the airport should be close becuase it was built too close the people and plane are flying really low and they are dangerous and blah blah blah,now,Herzliya is one of the eight airports in israel,one of the eight-Ben Gurion Intl. allows GA only for instruments approaches training and emergency,and another one requires a week earlier notice. Herzliya is one of the busiest airport in the country,serving the civilian aircraft,along with air force and Arkia Airlines.
Herzliya is now considered "temporary",a few months ago the higher ranks held a conversation if to keep the airport or to destroy it,they didn't come to a decision,so in the meanwhile the airport stays until the next conversation,which is scheduled to 2020.
Title: Re: Another airport about to be shut down?
Post by: TheSoccerMom on November 01, 2009, 09:06:00 PM
When I saw that the guy in the homebuilt had gone down by North Vegas, I thought "OHHH NOOOO, NOT there!" ::banghead::
After the two bad accidents, earlier, when everyone was all riled up, they made a concerted effort to involve the community with the airport, to try to educate the neighborhoods, etc. as to what exactly goes on at that airport. That is ONE BUSY airport... and it's pretty valuable to that entire area!
AOPA works to promote airports, and to prevent their closures. I don't know if Nevada has any strong state aviation groups or not, but Idaho (for instance) has the State Aeronautics Division (government) as well as the Idaho Aviation Association (private group); along with the 99s they all work to keep backcountry strips groomed, safe to use, and OPEN... and AOPA does help as well.
It IS frustrating to be misunderstood....!! A lot of people just see flying as a rich man's hobby, and never think of the medical flights, the traffic and news flights, the firefighting flights, blah, blah, blah... it seems like an uphill explanation sometimes....
|:)\
Title: Re: Another airport about to be shut down?
Post by: Stef on November 03, 2009, 01:49:12 PM
Mike, I remember watching that movie about Van Nuys airport a few weeks ago. One of the commentators made a very good point: Once an airport is closed, it can never be re-opened! After the land is developed for residential or other use, you will never be able to find a spot that's big enough for a new airport.
I guess if you'd moved next to a highway and then demand it to be shut down, everybody would consider you a kook! But for some reason that logic does not apply to anti-airport activists....
Title: Re: Another airport about to be shut down?
Post by: Oddball on November 03, 2009, 02:02:04 PM
Strange thought.............build a Airport next to a housing development and ask for them to be shut down lol ;D ;D
Title: Re: Another airport about to be shut down?
Post by: cotejy on November 03, 2009, 03:16:50 PM
So agree with you Mike. We are experiencing the same kind of things where I fly. They changed the patern because of complains from residents. They are looking to close the airport and those freaks living near an airport that was there for decades when they build their houses are now sending complaints in mass when someone is off pattern by a few feets. One airplane cutting a little short on the down wind and there are 10 residents on their balcony taking picture to send to the authorities.
It's like the gun shooting club where I go. They celebrated their 100 anniversary a few years ago. Now, residents want it to be closed because of the noise. They build their houses 15 years ago. They are so close to that club that when you shoot, even with ear protection, you can hear the echo bouncing from their homes. Do people really buy houses without looking at what is in the neighboorhood? I would never ever buy or build a house that close to a shooting range but if you do, don't complain!
Wide area of excellent agricultural lands are invaded by cities growing. Then, people complain because airport are too noisy, farm stink, wind mild are ugly, trafic is bad, meat price are going up,...
BTW, I just read the CW book "think big". You did a good job on the section about people complaining about airport noise. This was the only section I didn't laugh but still a very good one.
Title: Re: Another airport about to be shut down?
Post by: Mike on November 03, 2009, 06:35:53 PM
BTW, I just read the CW book "think big". You did a good job on the section about people complaining about airport noise. This was the only section I didn't laugh but still a very good one.
Thanks cotejy! You know you can have those strips on disc/file/printed if you ever need them to help keep airports open. We give those out at no charge in effort to help aviators keep their fields open. Maybe a little humor can help, we just want to do our part....
And guys, I am glad Stefan reminded me: Check out AND TELL EVERYBODY about "One Six Right"!! This movie is one big commercial for small airports and why they should stay open! And it has beautiful flying scenes and tons of historic material, not to mention a really good sound track....
here is a link: http://www.terwilligerproductions.com/onesixright/ (http://www.terwilligerproductions.com/onesixright/)
Spread the word!
Title: Re: Another airport about to be shut down?
Post by: Louis on November 05, 2009, 01:53:03 AM
We have two airports under threat in the greater Montreal area right now (Mascouche, CSK3, and St-Hubert, CYHU). This is going to get ugly.
Both old and very significant GA airports. The one under most danger being Mascouche as the newly re-elected anti-airport mayor wants to sell the airport land (once surrounded by fields, now prime suburban real-estate next to two major highways) by 2011. This one is going to the courts for sure...
In St-Hubert the mayor has changed, but its unclear to what extent the new one is favorable to the airport's presence, and there's a complaints group that has gained some momentum lately.
"Alternative" airports if these were to close are further away, and not nearly as attractive or appropriate for GA.
Cotejy, je pense que t'es du coin toi aussi?
Title: Re: Another airport about to be shut down?
Post by: Mike on November 05, 2009, 05:21:18 AM
oh no!
will our comics help??
Let me know?!
Title: Re: Another airport about to be shut down?
Post by: cotejy on November 05, 2009, 02:59:43 PM
oui louis! I was talking about Mascouche (CSK3). And was in St-Hubert before that. So I know what you are talking about.
If there are to close CSK3, do you think CYMX could be an alternative for GA? I know I'm dreaming but take a look: http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=fr&geocode=&q=mirabel+airport&sll=45.521503,-73.615952&sspn=0.116905,0.308647&dirflg=r&date=09%2F11%2F05&time=09:55&ttype=dep&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=&tline=&ie=UTF8&hq=airport&hnear=Mirabel,+QC&ll=45.678361,-74.027081&spn=0.05829,0.154324&t=h&z=13 (http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=fr&geocode=&q=mirabel+airport&sll=45.521503,-73.615952&sspn=0.116905,0.308647&dirflg=r&date=09%2F11%2F05&time=09:55&ttype=dep&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=&tline=&ie=UTF8&hq=airport&hnear=Mirabel,+QC&ll=45.678361,-74.027081&spn=0.05829,0.154324&t=h&z=13)
I think I already talked about this airport before on this forum. This is a great international airport now used only by a few cargo airplanes. That would be so wierd to have 12000 X 200 runways used mainly by 172, cherokee, homebuild,...
Title: Re: Another airport about to be shut down?
Post by: Louis on November 11, 2009, 03:29:21 AM
Mike, I'm quite busy right now, but I wouldn't mind trying to translate the relevant ones and forwarding them to people more directly involved in both cases.
Mirabel would be an awkward alternate for Mascouche: controlled airspace (recently downgraded from tower to FSS, could go back to tower due to politics and large aerospace players like Bombardier, L3 and Bell Textron on site) with a very wide spectrum of aircraft. Compare that to Mascouche, where the biggest aircraft you'll see is the occasional light piston twin or single turboprop.
Mascouche has nowhere near the landing fees of Mirabel, or the security requirements, etc.
And Mirabel, despite its boondoggle/white elephant/ghost airport status, is poised to make a nice replacement for Dorval, bound to run out of capacity someday. (My totally wild guess is somewhere around 2025) Unfortunately, I fear the all-too-common lack of foresight from our leaders until then will probably mean the "surplus" land will all have been sold, and sprawling suburbia built all around the place.
Plus moving all those businesses from one airport to the other isn't going to be easy as there's only one FBO-type facility that I'm aware of in CYMX. And it's already taken.
A shiver just ran down my spine... What if mayor Marcotte (in Mascouche) decides to pull a "Daley"? ::eek::
In St-Hubert's case, some things could perhaps be moved to St-Jean, but that airport can only do a fraction of what St-Hubert can. Runway lengths, instrument approaches, FBO facilities, proximity to downtown, etc. just don't compare.
Title: Re: Another airport about to be shut down?
Post by: Mike on November 11, 2009, 03:47:58 AM
no problem...
send me a PM with your email address and quick note and I'll send your the high res files if you want!
Title: Re: Another airport about to be shut down?
Post by: YawningMan on November 16, 2009, 09:17:28 PM
We have two airports under threat in the greater Montreal area right now (Mascouche, CSK3, and St-Hubert, CYHU). This is going to get ugly.
Both old and very significant GA airports. The one under most danger being Mascouche as the newly re-elected anti-airport mayor wants to sell the airport land (once surrounded by fields, now prime suburban real-estate next to two major highways) by 2011. This one is going to the courts for sure...
In St-Hubert the mayor has changed, but its unclear to what extent the new one is favorable to the airport's presence, and there's a complaints group that has gained some momentum lately.
"Alternative" airports if these were to close are further away, and not nearly as attractive or appropriate for GA.
Cotejy, je pense que t'es du coin toi aussi?
I hope he doesn't turn out to be another Richard Daley.
Long live Meigs Field. Meigs is dead.
Title: Re: Another airport about to be shut down?
Post by: Mike on November 18, 2009, 01:15:29 AM
What happens to Meigs field is a total shame!! ::banghead:: ::rambo::
I couldn't believe what happened there (but I am guessing I am not alone there....)
Title: Is your airport on the endangered list?
Post by: Mike on November 25, 2009, 09:50:24 PM
I found a great article on the AOPA aviation eBrief newsletter!
Maybe it will help you guys up north! |:)\
Is your airport on the endangered list? Posted by Meg Godlewski · November 23, 2009
For the past 10 years I have been hearing from readers concerned about their airports. Usually it begins with a phone call from someone who is upset because “they” are trying to close the airport. Sometimes “they” have names. Other times they don’t.
The names and locations of the airports change, but often the issues are the same. And — Meigs Field not withstanding — very rarely do airports close suddenly. Usually there are a lot of warning signs that an airport is endangered.
Many advocacy groups, such as the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association and state aviation associations, have guidelines for protecting airports, but by the time those groups are called in, it may be too late. That means it’s up to airport tenants, pilots and aircraft owners to pick up on the signs that something is coming down the runway, so to speak, and take action.
Realize that the best defense is a good offense, because once the decision has been made to close an airport, there is very little pilots can do. However, if you know what to look for, you can take a proactive approach to protecting your field.
Here are 10 signs of trouble and some suggestions on what to do if you see them:
1. PROPOSED LAND USE OR ZONING CHANGES
If your airport has undeveloped land near it, you should be on guard for this. Most airports and the land near them are in areas zoned light industrial. If the proposal is to change it to “mixed use” or “residential,” look out. If the zoning change goes through, it’s often too late to enact a change.
WHAT TO DO: In most local communities — whether it’s a city, township or county — the law requires a sign be placed on the property advertising that its zoning is up for a change. If you see one of these signs — or a for sale sign — pay attention to it and let others in the aviation community know about it.
You also should routinely scan the public notice section of your local newspaper for announcements of zoning board hearings and ATTEND them if any of the proposals on the agenda could impact the airport. Be prepared to provide logical testimony as to why putting a multifamily housing complex beneath the downwind leg of the pattern, for example, is a bad idea.
Become familiar with AOPA’s “Airport Support Network” program, which is a watch-dog group at local airports. The ASN volunteer keeps tabs on the airport, and if there is a zoning change or development proposal, has a direct line to AOPA to call in the big guns should the situation warrant it. The folks at AOPA have been protecting airports for decades and have resources and experience that most small pilot groups do not. Your airport doesn’t have an ASN volunteer? Find one or become one.
2. RELUCTANCE TO RENEW LEASES
Airports are economic engines — most of the time. But if the airport owner or operator — often referred to as its sponsor — plans to divest itself of the property or the responsibility for the airport, that usually begins by a reduction in support for the businesses there.
Most airport businesses ask for a lease of 20 years or more. If the sponsor insists on a month-to-month lease, that is often a sign that the business is not long for the airport. The sponsor could be making way for a larger, more profitable tenant or it may be the beginning of closing down the airport.
WHAT TO DO: Demand accountability from the sponsor. Usually leases have to be discussed at public meetings. Attend the meetings and, during the public comment period, ask why the leases are not being renewed. Also, show support for the businesses on the field. Use their services when able and make sure the sponsor knows that you do.
3. NO CHAIN OF COMMAND
Few things are more frustrating than trying to get information about an issue at an airport and getting the runaround instead. It’s important to know who is responsible for what at the airport. For example, the airport may fall under the public works department of your city, but an on-site manager is responsible for day-to-day operations.
WHAT TO DO: Make contact with those in leadership positions. It’s important to establish a relationship BEFORE a crisis hits. Even if they are not the right person, if you already have a relationship, they are likely to be willing to help you contact the correct person.
4. NO ADVISORY BOARD
When a sponsor dissolves an airport advisory board, it is often the first step in closing the airport. A lack of a board means a lack of direct contact between the aviation community and the sponsor.
Sometimes a board is dissolved because there is a lack of volunteers willing to serve. Other times the sponsor deems it unnecessary or a nuisance and does away with it.
WHAT TO DO: Petition the sponsor to establish and maintain an advisory board. Volunteer to be on it and encourage other pilots to do the same.
5. NO RESTAURANT
Airport restaurants are often the focal point of the field. A community-friendly eatery attracts the aviation-challenged, as well as the pilot population. A good restaurant draws people to the airport, as well as the surrounding community. With the restaurant gone, the airport loses some of its appeal to visitors.
WHAT TO DO: Encourage the sponsor to actively seek out a restaurant as a tenant or support the restaurant that’s already on the field. This may mean re-negotiating a lease during economic challenges. Be sure to let the sponsor know how much the community values the restaurant — and tell other pilots, as well as your non-pilot friends — to not only support the restaurant, but talk it up to the powers-that-be.
6. EMPTY SPACES
Just as a empty storefront is an indication of a dying town, empty office and hangar space at an airport can indicate decay. The lack of services often keeps pilots away, exacerbating the problem.
WHAT TO DO: Encourage pilots to use the facility and make sure they let the sponsor know they are. Encourage the sponsor to work with business owners to bring them to the airport, as well as help existing businesses remain open in tough times.
7. COMMISSIONING A LAND USE STUDY
A land use study is often a sign the sponsor is considering closing an airport because these studies are often done to determine if an airport is the “best use” for the land.
The study includes an investigation of the airport’s debts and the status of grants if it has accepted state or federal funding. The idea of having to pay back millions of dollars in grants can be enough to table the idea of closing the airport, but sometimes it can stir up opponents, who call for the airport to be closed and the land redeveloped.
WHAT TO DO: Work with the consultant hired to do the study to make sure it is balanced. Attend meetings when the consultant is scheduled to give updates on the study’s progress, so you can identify problems early in the process. Once it’s complete, make sure to get a copy of the study and share it with local aviation groups and other pilots.
8. NO COMMUNITY SUPPORT
If your airport has the reputation as a playground for the rich, look out. Very often non-flying citizens resent that their taxes are being used to “subsidize” this playground and may put pressure on elected officials to close the airport. Others may think that because the airport does not have airline service or a control tower that it is “unsafe” or unnecessary.
WHAT TO DO: Hold an airport appreciation and education day. Partner with local service clubs, car clubs and the like to make it a family-friendly community event. Invite owners to bring their airplanes for display. Show the community how the airport contributes to the local economy, both directly and indirectly, as well as provides other essential services, such as Medevac flights, flights that help local businesses prosper, and more. Don’t forget to include state representatives and the media when you send out invitations to the event.
9. LOTS OF COMPLAINTS
Noise, low-flying aircraft and safety concerns DO get the attention of elected officials. If the issues are ignored, it can aggravate tensions. If enough people complain, the issues became political footballs.
WHAT TO DO: Encourage pilots to “fly friendly.” Hold educational sessions with the airport users and community. Some airports have published diagrams of noise abatement policies, which are often accompanied by a telephone number that can be called to report a complaint.
10. NON-AVIATION USES
The airport property may cover 644 acres, but 120 acres is leased to an auto wrecking yard, or a boat repair facility, or some other non-aviation business.
WHAT TO DO: While these non-aviation uses can help subsidize the airport, the leases need to be carefully worded so that the non-aviation uses do not endanger the airport’s federal grant eligibility, compromise safety or take precedence over the airport’s main mission.
