Roost Air Lounge => Aviation related topics => Topic started by: Mike on May 09, 2006, 10:52:33 PM
Title: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 09, 2006, 10:52:33 PM
Ok guys, I just spend 4.5hrs driving to Vegas where my fiance lives and it's entirely too much to do every week. She has a pretty good job which she would be stupid to quit and my job could be seasonal so we are thinking of moving in together in Vegas. Since all my work starts a airports I could just commute easily by plane IF I could afford one. Of course it would be a "Chicken Wings" plane with a crazy paintjob and all.
Soooo, I am thinking of buying a Cessna 172P if I can get one for a reasonable price. What do you guys think my costs would be per month not including gas and oil changes (I am an A&P so I can do all that myself)? ? ? ??? Just thinking annual, materials, insurance, tie-down fees, and basic operating costs for a P-model...
Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Frank N. O. on May 09, 2006, 11:09:25 PM
You in a stuckwing? ROFL Seriously though, I understand it and stuckwings are better for long-distance flights to my knowlege. Didn't remember you were an A&P, that's really practical and must be pretty nice to know how the things work and how to check yourself also, not that you shouldn't have trust in the workstaff of course, especially not someone like Roland |:)\
Having the Chicken Wings Roost-Air paintjob on it would be totally cool though! And then have a life-size stuffed Chuck in the passengerseat :D
Frank
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 09, 2006, 11:20:28 PM
Figure about 3 times the cost of fuel burn per hour to cover all the expenses (insurance, tie down/hanger, parts, ect... you know, fixed costs). Maybe a little less since you would be doing all the maint. and such.
Figuring an 8 gal/hr fuel burn, times 4.00/gal would be 32.00/hr, multiplied by say 2 (since you won't be paying a mechanic) = 64.00/hr operating cost. That would be "wet"... 32.00/hr for just the fixed costs.
I'd round that up to 40.00/hr just to be on the safe side.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 10, 2006, 12:24:09 AM
How much did your insurance cost? Tie down could be expensive too, huh?
How much fixed costs would you think I would have when the plane never moves: Insurance, Tie-Down, Annual (since I HAVE to get one every year), and aircraft payments....
Is $600 a month reasonable?
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 10, 2006, 12:31:47 AM
I paid a little over a 1000.00 a year in insurance, but it would have been less if it would have just been myself. My partner was a realitevly low time pilot without an instrument ticket. Call AOPA's insurance number and ask for a quote on a 172, they should be able to get you close to what you'll pay.
Tie down around here runs about 50 a month for a single engine.
Budget a couple grand for the annual.
Figure about 300/month if the airplane never moves without the payment.
How much and how long you are going to finance will dictate the rest.
My suggestion is look at a 172M model. It's got the 150 hp Lycoming, and will be about 10K less than a comparable P model. The fastest 172 I've ever flown was a 1975 w/ the 150
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: fireflyr on May 10, 2006, 01:29:11 AM
Mike, asking friends and pilots about this is fine but the best advice will come from a aggressive tax consultant. With Chicken Wings and with your flying career there are many times you need the added mobility only a privately owned airplane will provide. DO NOT think this advice is given frivolously, I am dead serious! The tax savings alone can easily pay for 30% or more of the actual cost of the airplane but the deal must be structured carefully and that's when you need the tax consultant---not necessarily a CPA either (most times they are too conservative). The purchase and use of an airplane will be very easy to justify for both of your business needs and the record keeping will be simple as all flights are logged anyway. The best advice I was ever given was to learn how to LEGALLY shelter my income and that advice has made me more money in the last 10 years than I made working the previous 35 years.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on May 10, 2006, 03:43:07 AM
Find a bank that specifically finances aircraft, as well. Your friendly neighborhood Wells Fargo won't have a clue and will charge you an arm and a leg, if they'll even finance you at all. If you can't find anything close to you, let me know. We deal with an excellent bank in Halstad, MN that loves to deal with airplanes. I believe either the president or the manager is a pilot. I'll send you the info and contact numbers for them.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 10, 2006, 01:08:15 PM
I went through AOPA (I'm sensing a patern here... :D ) for my financing, it was painless. I wish buying a house was that easy. :D
firflyer is right about the tax implications, it's more than worth your time to go talk to someone. I was strictly a private owner, so there was no tax savings on my part for owning an airplane.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Plthijnx on May 10, 2006, 07:06:29 PM
also, typically when you buy fuel from an FBO they'll let you tie down for free....short term parking and such.....
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 10, 2006, 07:19:46 PM
Thanks for all the good advice guys. I have a pretty good Tax guy who knows his way around aircraft as well. Another friend of mine is using his helicopter as a tax-write-off and he has the same CPA. I will definetly figure this out BEFORE I buy the plane.
Now I just have to decide on a plane. 172M, huh?!
How fast does this one cruise? I used to work on one in my mechanic days but only flew it once and can't remember (again...CRS) Isn't the M-model the one that has more flap travel than the P-model?
Also Thanks for the AOPA route Sleek. I'll get in touch with them. It seems to be the way to go to me.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Plthijnx on May 10, 2006, 07:29:16 PM
i just walked out and looked at one of our 172M models, it's got 40 degrees of flap travel. i'm not sure but i think the P model only has 30 degrees. as far as the speed goes, they're roughly the same.....
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Plthijnx on May 10, 2006, 07:39:03 PM
Mike, are you that fixed on a cessna? you can get a warrior (160h.p.) for about the same price and have similar expense costs. or even perhaps an Archer. 180 ponies under the cowl=more airspeed!!
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 10, 2006, 07:50:35 PM
And no, I am not set on a Cessna. BUT Cessnas are what I worked on most when I was a kid and I am most comfortable with as an A&P. And they are easier to fly (in case my fiance wants to fly it. She started taking lessons before but chickend out before her solo)
How much faster is an Archer? I do want a plane to get me places. I found Piper to need more maintenance than the Cessnas though...
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Plthijnx on May 10, 2006, 08:12:16 PM
that's not a bad looking bird!
uhhmm the speed, well lemme go look i can't remember right off the bat. just came back in from helping the other Mike work on the stabilator berings on uh, our warrior ::) to cool off. i'll look in the POH and let you know. i think it's around 110 or so, but that's just an unejumakated guesstimate. ok, so i forgot to hit post. the checklist calls it 135mph indicated. and somedays i've gotten more out of her....now, back out in this heat and humidity to work on the warrior.....
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 10, 2006, 08:39:58 PM
You've got lots of options when looking for this type of equipment. Don't discount the Grumman Cheetah, I've grown rather fond of those. Very good speed for the power. And you get to fool everyone on unicom when you announce your position as "Grumman 1234, 10 east for landing"... Everyone expects a GV to show up. ;D
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Plthijnx on May 10, 2006, 08:43:25 PM
that's right! i totally forgot about the grumman line! i used to traverse texas and louisiana in a Tiger....
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Frank N. O. on May 10, 2006, 08:48:37 PM
GV?
Frank
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on May 10, 2006, 08:55:24 PM
That is a good looking bird...especially the interior. Not bad for being 30 years old. :)
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 10, 2006, 09:24:25 PM
Gulfstream V executive jet. The Gulfstream line was originally built by Grumman, so they are still called that today by some people.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 11, 2006, 12:35:22 AM
Good Input. I am not sure about the Tiger. I've flown one couple if times before and it's a nice little plane, but I remember they have some sort of problem with the fuel tanks (I think it was sealing them was impossible if there ever had been a hard landing before because of the spar running right through the middle) and a bubble like that out in the dessert (the plane will live in Vegas) I am not sure about. (remind me about updating my "what have you flown" list I forgot the Tiger. Don't they make a 2 seater as well??
I guess I am looking at this more as an A&P than a pilot. It's like buying a house, you have to try not to "fall in love with it" because it's so cute and in, case of a plane, flies really nice... Here are the thoughts that go into it on my side: *Cessna because I have a lot of time working on them and flying them. *High Wing because I would like to take it to Oshkosh and turn the whole plane into a Chicken Wings booth using the wings as shade so I don't have to bring my booth tent.. *Cessna 172 because everybody and their mother has parts for them and knows how to work on them *172 because everything is sheet-metal and I am a sheet-metal guy *Lycoming engine because I like them better than Continental and they seem to have less problems and the ones they do have I can work on myself *It should be able to carry about 800lbs and have some sort of a cargo compartment.
the one thing I don't like is the speed.. The plane is mainly meant to be transportation for me and help me get my ASEL-IFR and commercial Deep down I'll always be a rotorhead BUT I have never owned a plane and I am getting excited thinking about it...maybe I'll drift back over to the dark side...
My first choice would be a Cessna 182 (one of the last models they made in the late 70s) but I just can't afford them...
Oh!! :o I just realized Chuck is flying a 172 while I was writing this, so I guess it would just have to be one of them huh?! ;) ::)
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 11, 2006, 12:42:51 AM
I just have got to throw this in here... because deep down I lust for one...
Tri-Pacer... ;D |:)\ 8)
Sounds like you've made up your mind Mike. You're going to be hard pressed to get anything more than 120 kts out of a 172, and that's with pants and a cruise prop. 110 is more like it. That's still only a couple hours from Cali to Vegas though, beats driving. ;D
But, like you said, they are honest, dependable, simple airplanes. I say start looking.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on May 11, 2006, 04:15:09 AM
Good Input. I am not sure about the Tiger. I've flown one couple if times before and it's a nice little plane, but I remember they have some sort of problem with the fuel tanks (I think it was sealing them was impossible if there ever had been a hard landing before because of the spar running right through the middle) and a bubble like that out in the dessert (the plane will live in Vegas) I am not sure about. (remind me about updating my "what have you flown" list I forgot the Tiger. Don't they make a 2 seater as well??
That was the Yankee, both an A and a AA, I think. Never flown one, but I've heard they're squirelly. You've got about 5 kts between cruise and stall speed. If you have less than full tanks, a spin is nearly impossible to get out of because the fuel tanks run the whole length of the wing.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: bayareaflier on May 11, 2006, 05:53:10 AM
I did my primary in 172s and I'm doing my instrument in Archers. My recollection is that a 172M/N will true out around 90-100 KTAS, and the Archers true out around 120 KTAS. No idea about Archer fuel consumption, since I fly Part 141 and they fuel everything. The book claims around 9 gph. I think 172s suck down 8 gph, 10 if you forget to lean at training altitudes. I think that the Archers probably give you better performance for the fuel cost, but you'd have to compare specs against a 172SP to be fair.
Curious, how do you intend to tackle the mountains in a 172? Or is there a route to Oshkosh that I'm not familiar with?
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on May 11, 2006, 01:45:05 PM
Curious, how do you intend to tackle the mountains in a 172? Or is there a route to Oshkosh that I'm not familiar with?
We had a student that used to go from ND to NM or AZ in a 150 over the mountains. It took him a while, but he would get that thing up to 14,500.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 11, 2006, 01:49:32 PM
Most flight school and rental 172's have climb props on them... so they tend to be a little slow. I flew a P model that had a "climb/cruise" prop on it and it would turn about 110 at 8500 or so. The M model that was so fast had a cruise prop, I reagularly saw 120, but it was one of those airplanes that was just "right", it flew hands off for hours and was always coordinated. It was a little pathetic in climb though.
You can fly a 172 in the mountains, just go early in the morning. You can transition over Southern/Central Arizona and Central New Mexico if you don't want to get real tall headed back east. 7500 east bound and 8500 west bound will clear most of the rocks.
You might look for a Hawk XP Mike, though it'll have a Continental. I know people usually have pretty good luck with the normally aspirated IO-360 though, and you'd get fuel injection out of the deal.
Man, I do love shopping for airplanes. Trade a plane, here we come... ;D |:)\
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 11, 2006, 05:08:22 PM
Well, what I would be most concerned with is the takeoff and landing at high altitudes. Some of the airports I would fly into are at 6000ft. And in Nevada, even the ones below that will seem like 6000ft to 8000ft due to density altitude...
So would this be an environment for a climb prop?
I would like to stay away from fuel injection if I can. Again...maintenance and simpicity being my main concern...
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 11, 2006, 05:25:03 PM
I flew that M model out of ABQ... if that gives you any idea of DA I was dealing with. The other 172's I've flown around Colorado didn't really have to many problems. You learn to use things like ridge lift and thermals to get where you're going if you have to.
I would go with a climb/cruise prop, gives you a little more speed in cruise. Most prop shops can repitch a propellar for you in an afternoon. I knew one guy that had his tweaked to the point of being able to pull redline on the runway. The airplane wasn't all the fast, but man it'd climb. ;D
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: fireflyr on May 11, 2006, 07:04:29 PM
In your quest for a little better performance and simplicity you might consider a 172 with the 0-360 Lycoming conversion. Most have a C/S prop so they climb well and cruise speeds are quite a bit better then stock 172s plus the engine is almost bullet proof. It's been a while but I have flown several and I was always pleased with the performance. The 175/180 conversion is a tad slower because the original cowl which is made larger to cover the original geared engine is also dirtier then the 172 cowl. The 172/180 Lyc conversion really is a bargain when you start comparing performance and cost---It will do as well as a late model SP for a whole lot less initial investment and engine maintenance will be lower too. It's worth a look and a demo flight. 8)
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: fireflyr on May 11, 2006, 07:57:58 PM
Just took a look at CONTROLLER website and there are 19 172/180 for sale there.
You'd like a 182 performance? These are almost as good for a whole lot less money!
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 11, 2006, 08:26:33 PM
172/180's perform very nicely. The AvCon STC has the constant speed prop.
If you decide to go that route, look for one with the longer range tanks, 36 gals doesn't go very far with the 0-360 up front. Either that, or use the extra ponies to climb higher, and pull back the power to approximate an 0-320's fuel burn... ;D
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 11, 2006, 09:33:15 PM
Hey fireflyer... I figured you'd be backing me up on the Tri-Pacer idea... ;D
I think Chuck would look good in a perky little 3 Pacer. :D :D :D |:)\
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: madpilot44 on May 11, 2006, 10:15:00 PM
Hey mike, my dad used to own a C-172 in partnership over here, I don't have the figures now but will get them to you. it was a C-172N and it flew out of MGGT wich is at 5,000 ft with no problems. I recall once a guy flew it with 3 passengers and slight baggage. I used to fly on it, often with an instructor and it climbed nice (it had a climb prop)...
memories just came flooding back jaja
anyway, I'll get back to you with the numbers (should have them here somewhere...)
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: SkyKing on May 12, 2006, 02:40:47 AM
Soooo, I am thinking of buying a Cessna 172P if I can get one for a reasonable price. What do you guys think my costs would be per month not including gas and oil changes (I am an A&P so I can do all that myself)? ? ? ??? Just thinking annual, materials, insurance, tie-down fees, and basic operating costs for a P-model...
Any thoughts?
Your major expense will be replacing the rubber on the training wheels every other week.
If you are seriously interested in commuting by plane, buy a PLANE. The Skyhawk is known in the upper desert as the CHICKENHAWK, good at low altitudes but not a really good bird for going anywhere in a hurry or where the DAs are 9,000 on a July afternoon! You should be looking for something like a Bellanca, Swift, Mooney or something else faster than the 172. The only high-wing Cessna that I'd consider for aerocommuting from LV to SoCal would be the Skymaster.
. . .of course, I can recommend the older 310 . . ! There are things to be said about sleek fuselage, straight tail and tuna tanks! ;)
If you can get away without a lot of carrying capability, you might even think outside the box a bit, and look at the hot one-holers. You could even get one of those little racers, and be-bop along at 200 knots plus . . .inverted . . .
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: SkyKing on May 12, 2006, 02:44:44 AM
You've got lots of options when looking for this type of equipment. Don't discount the Grumman Cheetah, I've grown rather fond of those. Very good speed for the power. And you get to fool everyone on unicom when you announce your position as "Grumman 1234, 10 east for landing"... Everyone expects a GV to show up. ;D
Better than that, the Grummans are FUN to fly! Just don't get the camo "Boredom Fighter" paint scheme, those are kind of hard to spot sometimes. Add the Grummans to the list of "look at" planes.
Maybe what you need is a little single-seater to commute, and a Grumman two- or four-place for your other flying.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 12, 2006, 03:32:27 AM
Thanks for the very honest input again SkyKing.
I am totally with you and I would like a Skymaster and, like I mentioned before, a Skylane but cost is also an issue. A C-310 is completely out of the question. Think "parts"!!
I am primarily a mechanic and intend to work on my own plane and I just don't want to deal with maintenance issues all the time. I can deal with something going slower and not being as much "fun" to fly if I get something that works every time and is easy to maintain. How much time am I really going to save? It's 200nm to LA from Vegas and if I fly 130tks instead of 100kts...
And when it comes to "fun to fly".... come on! are you serious? I fly helicopters into fires for a living!!
. . . This would be simply a commuter for me (AND as I mentioned a means for my girl to get her license too, so no Mooney, no Bonanza, no Taildragger.... even though I would like it)
I really love the way the Skymaster flies but I used to maintain them and let me tell you....the mechanics call it "Skybastard" for a reason.
I guess I could look at the Grumman though. And no, I would never have that camo paint scheme ::)
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 12, 2006, 03:46:25 AM
Hey mike, my dad used to own a C-172 in partnership over here, I don't have the figures now but will get them to you. it was a C-172N and it flew out of MGGT wich is at 5,000 ft with no problems. I recall once a guy flew it with 3 passengers and slight baggage. I used to fly on it, often with an instructor and it climbed nice (it had a climb prop)...
memories just came flooding back jaja
anyway, I'll get back to you with the numbers (should have them here somewhere...)
Thanks MAD! I am looking forward to reading the details...
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: fireflyr on May 13, 2006, 02:11:58 AM
Hey fireflyer... I figured you'd be backing me up on the Tri-Pacer idea... ;D
I think Chuck would look good in a perky little 3 Pacer. :D :D :D |:)\
YA YOU BETCHA! De leetle "flying milk stool" would be a good honest airplane---I can tell ya they'll fly 4 big guys and baggage out of a 1'000 foot beach strip in Mexico--been there done that---AND the cruise is respectable but for what Mike wants, I believe the 172 or 172/180 is more appropriate. I love them little Pipers!
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 14, 2006, 12:49:37 AM
How much are them little Tri-Pacers?
I noticed that there is about a $20,000 price difference between a C-172 M and one with the O-360 conversion...
I was thinking of spending something between $40,000 and $60,000 . . . but depending on the financing I can get I might be able to go higher.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Inept on May 14, 2006, 01:27:25 AM
Have you considered a Cutlass? They fly like a skyhawk, but with the gear in the belly, you get an extra 15 kts for free. With a constant speed, three bladed prop, you'll get good climb performance and cruise numbers as well. The problem may be in using it as a primaty trainer for your girl, since it's complex.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 14, 2006, 04:06:54 AM
hmmm... No I haven't. Thanks for the input. But if I go with extra gears and more blades and stuff it again would leave me more open to maintenance problems, at least I think.... I have maintained one and flown it once. I really remember much about it. How much do they cost?
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 14, 2006, 04:32:55 PM
Trivia alert.... ;D
The Cessna Cutlass is actually a fixed gear, 180 hp 172, there were only a small number made... the "Cutlass" that everyone thinks about and trained in is the RG model of that airplane... check it out on the cowling, they are Cutlass RG's.
Every once in a while you'll see a f/g Cutlass come up for sale. It would be a pretty nice airplane to have, but they are rare.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Inept on May 14, 2006, 05:06:14 PM
That's a neat bit of trivia, thanks, Sleek. I'd have never guessed that or relaized that the Cutlass was it's own f/g model. I always assumed that it was just the name given the the r/g skyhawk, but then that goes to show what happens when you assume...
Aerotrader has several Cutlass RGs listed, ranging in price from 49K to 72K. Another thing to consider about the Cutlass RG is that most of them are equipped with a 2 bladed prop... I am fortunate enough to be spoiled by a 3-blader to train in. ;D
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: C310RCaptian on May 15, 2006, 04:28:52 PM
DON’T GET A 172RG!!!! Not worth it. Maintenance sucks on them and yet they are still used as the primary commercial pilot trainer. They have a lower useful load than a 172 fixed gear 2 people full fuel your at gross. Performance wise they are crappy. They drop like a rock in the dirty configuration and on hot days they drag there butt (way underpowered).
If you want a really good high wing airplane that has retractable gear and cruises get a Cessna 210. They can haul a ton of gear or people. Try and get one with the continental 550 engine and you will cook over the ground (150kt easy). Doesn’t have to be the pressurized kind but it’s an option and more expensive. I would dare to say they are as great as a 310 only with 3 differences. 20 knots slower than the old 310, only 1 engine to worry about maintenance and it sips the gas, slightly lower useful load by maybe 50lb. Other than that they are great!
I have time in both aircraft. Would love to own a 210 but you couldn’t pay me to keep a 172RG.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 15, 2006, 06:18:36 PM
I am with you there Captain. I will try to avoid anything retractable, turbo charged, pressurized, and twin engined. It's because of my maintenance background. I know how much headache this can be (even if you get paid to work on it). Just to put it on the jacks with everything checking out right is too time consuming for me. Again, I want to buy this plane to SAVE time, not to spend it.
I used to maintain a pressurized, turbocharged, retract gear, airconditioned (!) 337 Skymaster. That thing spent 6 months in the shop on one occasion. No Thank you! (although they do fly nice...)
A 210 might be a little out of my price range. I am figuring that with a plane that costs up to 70k I can totally save money versus owning an RV (it's a long story why I am comparing the two) but a 210 would use more fuel and cost more to buy...
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 15, 2006, 06:44:20 PM
Mike, don't let us get you to far off track...
Your original idea of a 172 or the like will fit the bill nicely. If you can find one with a 180 hp conversion, that would probably be ideal. Don't count out the Archer, it's got the semi-tapered wing and 180 hp so it'll perform better at the alititudes we run out here in the west and it's got more fuel than the 172.
One trip to OSH a year doesn't justify a fire breathing six seat retract, and the flight from So-Cal to Vegas isn't going to be that much faster anyway.
Ask 12 different pilots what the perfect airplane would be and you'll get 12 different answers. There's a reason Cessna sold 30 some thousand 172's... they get the job done.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Frank N. O. on May 15, 2006, 06:48:29 PM
Not to go too far off-topic but where does a late-model 3-blade Cardinal II RG fit in vs the other small planes in terms of relibility, price vs performance and service problems?
This topic sure has a lot of interesting reading and information in it |:)\
Frank
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 15, 2006, 09:51:00 PM
Your original idea of a 172 or the like will fit the bill nicely. If you can find one with a 180 hp conversion, that would probably be ideal. Don't count out the Archer, it's got the semi-tapered wing and 180 hp so it'll perform better at the alititudes we run out here in the west and it's got more fuel than the 172.
One trip to OSH a year doesn't justify a fire breathing six seat retract, and the flight from So-Cal to Vegas isn't going to be that much faster anyway.
Ask 12 different pilots what the perfect airplane would be and you'll get 12 different answers. There's a reason Cessna sold 30 some thousand 172's... they get the job done.
You're the one who used to own the straight tail 182, right? (I hope I remembered that right)
How would that compare to a C172 and/or the one with the 180hp conversion? also Pricewise?
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: fireflyr on May 15, 2006, 10:07:29 PM
Ask 12 different pilots what the perfect airplane would be and you'll get 12 different answers. There's a reason Cessna sold 30 some thousand 172's... they get the job done.
I concur with Sleek---your original idea was good! 8)
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 16, 2006, 01:12:41 AM
You're the one who used to own the straight tail 182, right? (I hope I remembered that right)
How would that compare to a C172 and/or the one with the 180hp conversion? also Pricewise?
There is no comparison... ;D I had my 182B to 15500 on several occasions, and she trucked right along. I could be off the ground and climbing at 1000+ fpm at sea level in under a thousand feet of runway. Shoot, I operated a couple times out of a 1/4 mile dirt strip in Colorado, in the summer time, just for grins. I don't care what the guys on AOPA forums say, the straight tail 182's are a hell of an airplane.
If you could find a clean, no corrosion, never been wrecked straight tail 182, you'd be in high cotton (I had one, and it was the dumbest thing I ever did selling it... ::) ). The problem is that 182's of that vintage tended to be abused since for quite a few years they weren't worth very much. Alot of them ended up as jump airplanes or photo ships, stuff like that. I lucked out when I bought my bird.
They are out there, but you'd have more luck finding a newer 172 with the 180 hp conversion I would think. For your average trip length, 2 people and bags, the 182 will get there about 10 minutes earlier and burn about 10 gallons more. Keep your eyes open though, you never know whats lurking in a T-hanger somewhere...
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: madpilot44 on May 16, 2006, 06:15:57 AM
here's the info mike. sorry for the delay. this is an estimate on what it cost us to operate the C-172. this was a year and a half ago, so prices have upped a little.
adding fuel (8 gal/hour @ $3.35/gal) it would end up at $50.59/hour if it flew 50 hours a month and $ 46.36/hour if it flew 100 hours a month (the plane was used for basic training and it easily flew some 70 hours a month)
Hope that helps in your decision |:)\
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 16, 2006, 06:28:43 AM
here's the info mike. sorry for the delay. this is an estimate on what it cost us to operate the C-172. this was a year and a half ago, so prices have upped a little.
adding fuel (8 gal/hour @ $3.35/gal) it would end up at $50.59/hour if it flew 50 hours a month and $ 46.36/hour if it flew 100 hours a month (the plane was used for basic training and it easily flew some 70 hours a month)
Hope that helps in your decision |:)\
Thanks, mad44! I really appreciate it. One thing though: Insurance/month $3,096.77 ??????????????????????????? :o ??? :o This can't be!! We almost pay that much for our ships....and they fly into fires!! That's close to $40k a year !!! (actually we pay $90k but still...) Is this liability AND hull??
Is this a California insurance company ??
I was hoping 1k a year.... I'll check though (I am planning on liabilty only btw....)
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 16, 2006, 02:12:18 PM
Yours won't be used for rental or instruction so it should be considerably lower. There's got to be something more to that insurance number... Hopefully... ;D
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: fireflyr on May 16, 2006, 03:48:59 PM
I've priced a policy for myself last year, 1 million liability and 45K hull was only 11 hundred/Year. That quote was from Avemco (I think)
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: SkyKing on May 16, 2006, 04:35:40 PM
I am totally with you and I would like a Skymaster and, like I mentioned before, a Skylane but cost is also an issue. A C-310 is completely out of the question. Think "parts"!!
I am primarily a mechanic and intend to work on my own plane and I just don't want to deal with maintenance issues all the time. I can deal with something going slower and not being as much "fun" to fly if I get something that works every time and is easy to maintain. How much time am I really going to save? It's 200nm to LA from Vegas and if I fly 130tks instead of 100kts...
And when it comes to "fun to fly".... come on! are you serious? I fly helicopters into fires for a living!!
. . . This would be simply a commuter for me (AND as I mentioned a means for my girl to get her license too, so no Mooney, no Bonanza, no Taildragger.... even though I would like it)
I really love the way the Skymaster flies but I used to maintain them and let me tell you....the mechanics call it "Skybastard" for a reason.
I guess I could look at the Grumman though. And no, I would never have that camo paint scheme ::)
I would point out that a lot of guys and gals got started in taildraggers. Like, uh, just about everyone who started before 1955 . . !
And the Bonanza is just a T-34 with four holes instead of two (if you look at it the right way), and a lot of folks have been Mentored over the years.
So you buy the good plane, give your lady a lot of stick time, and then find a CFI who will train her in your bird to get her log time. Then spend the thousand bucks to transition her down to the 172 or 182 for the checkride (the same idea as teaching her to drive a stick shift Mustang, then renting a Toyota with auto trans for her driving test).
If you start someone in Plane A, then they have to work up through Planes B, C, D, etc. Start someone in Plane D, and they don't turn around and go back up through A, B and C. Whatever you start someone at is where they assume they're supposed to start. The ONLY major difference between a "high-performance single" and a Chickenhawk is retractible gear. Speed is just "more of the same." Power is just "more." Cockpit management is just "more" (and not much more). I was flying a Bellanca Cruisemaster at 10 because that's what the family had and nobody told me that it was "too much plane" for me. Dad had to work the rudder for me, but the Cruisemaster steers really well as a "two-axis control" plane. I remember that the Bellanca was easier to deal with than the Cessna 140 we had transitioned from, though it had retractible gear and variable prop.
The Mixmaster is almost as easy to fly as the 182RG, you just have to watch two engine temps and props, not just one. And that damn Dutch roll goes away if you keep the screws tight on the tail boom. Since my wife-to-be will probably be petite and slender, the Skymaster will be our twin of choice (centerline thrust).
So don't sweat the small stuff -- buy the right plane, and she'll learn to fly it more easily than starting with the wrong one and working her way up.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: SkyKing on May 16, 2006, 04:42:51 PM
Ask 12 different pilots what the perfect airplane would be and you'll get 12 different answers. There's a reason Cessna sold 30 some thousand 172's... they get the job done.
I concur with Sleek---your original idea was good! 8)
MacDonalds' has sold HOW many billion burgers. . ?
. . .and not one was ever as good as anything from In-N-Out!
Quality isn't the primary consideration in most sales. It's what the customer is willing to accept.
They sold 30,000 Chickenhawks because the 150 was too small to take the family flying and the 182 too expensive. NOBODY buys the 172 thinking that it's the last plane they will ever want. Back in the late '60s the 172 was considered "transitional" -- a newly-hatched pilot would buy one because they had trained in 150s, then after a year or two if they were still flying, they moved up to something else. Nowdays, the 172 is considered a primary trainer (which is what USAF always figured).
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: madpilot44 on May 16, 2006, 07:51:50 PM
nope... that is a Guatemalan insurance company... flying is more expensive down here :'(. it's also high because it had full coverage for students starting with 20 hours (that was a good thought, because later on a student flew her nose in into the runway, and broke it)
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 17, 2006, 12:21:07 AM
Ask 12 different pilots what the perfect airplane would be and you'll get 12 different answers. There's a reason Cessna sold 30 some thousand 172's... they get the job done.
I concur with Sleek---your original idea was good! 8)
MacDonalds' has sold HOW many billion burgers. . ?
. . .and not one was ever as good as anything from In-N-Out!
Quality isn't the primary consideration in most sales. It's what the customer is willing to accept.
They sold 30,000 Chickenhawks because the 150 was too small to take the family flying and the 182 too expensive. NOBODY buys the 172 thinking that it's the last plane they will ever want. Back in the late '60s the 172 was considered "transitional" -- a newly-hatched pilot would buy one because they had trained in 150s, then after a year or two if they were still flying, they moved up to something else. Nowdays, the 172 is considered a primary trainer (which is what USAF always figured).
Before we get into a complete pissing match here...
Mike never said this would be the only airplane he would buy, just something to get back and for to Vegas, with an occasional long trip. Tell me where there's a need for a piston twin anywhere in there. It's 250 miles or so, at most. Sure, the 310 would be faster, at about 6 times the cost. And an older 310 is going to take one hell of alot more maintenance, insurance, and fuel than a 172, with special emphasis on the maintenance part.
A 182 would probably fit his needs a little better, but the model he want is a little out of his price range. A 172 makes sense as he'll get his feet wet with airplane ownership, and then be able to move up in a couple years.
Cessna sold 30,000 172's because not only are they a good trainer, but they make a nice basic VFR traveling machine. They'll haul 2 people and bags at about twice the highway speeds, at a little more than it cost to run you car. It's the same reason that Piper sold a pant load of Cherokee 140-150-160-180's... and Archers and Warriors.
If we keep playing the "what you really need" game, Mike might as well jump to the head of the line and buy a Citation. |:)\
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Inept on May 17, 2006, 03:02:11 AM
If we keep playing the "what you really need" game, Mike might as well jump to the head of the line and buy a Citation. |:)\
The Eclipse 500 is due for certification by the end of the year... ;) ;D
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 17, 2006, 03:10:09 AM
You're right with everything you said, Sleek! Thanks!
I respect SkyKing for his experience and I will try to remain courteous (which is something I don't see him do very often) as much as I can but it seems he's doing this on purpose. Everytime we say "A", he says "B" or even "C" just to be argumentative, I think.
Of course an In-N-Out burger tastes better and has high quality meat, but with my one dollar I might just have to get the 99c special. That's just the way it goes... ::)
I am not looking for a live-long investment nor am I looking into falling in love with my plane (which will probably change as soon as I have it sittn' on the ramp ::) ) Just like Sleek said, I am looking for a commuter for a few years.
Of course I love to fly the 337 or 310. But maintaining it? HELL NO!!! NO PARTS!! The SkyKing must not be an A&P. Why two engines? double my cost and my headache on my first plane? screw that sh$%...
I wanted to get some REAL advice for what I am planning to do here and I want to thank you all for your input.
Our SkyKing is really frustrating me in this particular thread. "Get a PLANE"...that's something you tell a guy after a few beers. It's no real help. If I had my choice, I'd get an AStar, but that one, together with 310's, 337's, Citations, and RG's, just doesn't fall into my parameters now does it? : no turbo no RG no twin little gas little insurance little maintenance carry 2 people plus bags no effort to get into (check outs, twin ratings, taildraggers) I must have mentioned them before somewhere.... I just want to buy something I can climb into and fly away with.
The best ideas so far were: M-model, and 180hp conversion-model That's what I'll look into. Thank you guys with the real advice for that |:)\
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 17, 2006, 03:11:41 AM
nope... that is a Guatemalan insurance company... flying is more expensive down here :'(. it's also high because it had full coverage for students starting with 20 hours (that was a good thought, because later on a student flew her nose in into the runway, and broke it)
Oh, ok. You had me scared there for a second ;)
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Roland on May 17, 2006, 06:03:12 AM
Gentlemen, please! Don’t let us get down to that point as so many other forums have. To bite each other on the worst possible way due to the anonymity here. Everybody has his point and should have it. And Jim, please stay here. You are one of the reasons why I turn into this forum. ;D The main reason to stay tuned is the fun we have here and that we could avoid the neck biting arguments until to this point. So please don’t let us start with it here.
To all friends here in this forum: please calm down, lets get back to the relaxed mode we had. Many thanks for your cooperation! |:)\ (And as far as I understand Mike’s question about buying a C172 is answered to the full extend. ;))
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Ted_Stryker on May 17, 2006, 09:37:56 AM
I will second that sentiment, Roland.
Come on everyone.... I understand how things can get, but let's all remain respectful of each other so we can keep sharing insights and humor in the spirit of commeradierie.
Okay? Shake hands and all and agree to disagree respectfully of each other in the future? I would hate to have the board tarnished by ill sentiments.
Thanks guys!
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Sleek-Jet on May 17, 2006, 03:15:05 PM
Gentlemen... Gentlemen... There's no fighting in the war room... ;D ;D ;D
Sorry if my post came across as argumentative. Skyking is entitled to his opinion, as am I, and everyone else in this thread.
I think Mike's a big boy and will be able to make the choice as to what will fit his needs best.
Sleek <-------- feeling all "touchy/feely" this morning... ;D |:)\
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Roland on May 17, 2006, 03:50:14 PM
Gentlemen... Gentlemen... There's no fighting in the war room... ;D ;D ;D
Sorry if my post came across as argumentative. Skyking is entitled to his opinion, as am I, and everyone else in this thread.
I think Mike's a big boy and will be able to make the choice as to what will fit his needs best.
Sleek <-------- feeling all "touchy/feely" this morning... ;D |:)\
Naw, it has nothing to do with you, Sleek. There was a post I responded to which is removed now and everything is ok again. ;D
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 17, 2006, 06:46:55 PM
Yeah there is a post missing now. I still stand by my post and I still appreciate your post Sleek! No need to apologize. I even agreed with the removed post but the poster himself decided to remove it...
Quite a controversy though, huh?! It's funny how pilots get so worked up when it comes to planes and which ones they like. ;D It reminds me of the strip we had in the book about Chuck arguing with the Long Ranger pilot about which helicopter is better... ;)
Good times, good times,...
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Skygal on May 17, 2006, 10:39:27 PM
OH OH and oh rats, I just got here and in looking at this thread I think I've found a former boyfriend, but then maybe not---If it IS you dear, I see your EGO is still intact!
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on May 18, 2006, 03:54:21 AM
Way to put it in perspective Skygal!! I think we needed that!
Uhm....uh-oh. I hope you weren't talking about me though... :-[ now I am a little nervous....
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on May 18, 2006, 04:13:01 AM
Can't we all just get along? :'(
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: SkyKing on May 24, 2006, 02:25:25 AM
OH OH and oh rats, I just got here and in looking at this thread I think I've found a former boyfriend, but then maybe not---If it IS you dear, I see your EGO is still intact!
Leggo my ego!
Of course, now there are half a dozen guys in here wondering just which of us is the guilty party.
If you mean me, well, I'm probably not who you think I am. Heck, there are times I'm not who _I_ think I am!
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: spacer on June 04, 2006, 01:28:05 AM
DON’T GET A 172RG!!!! Not worth it. Maintenance sucks on them and yet they are still used as the primary commercial pilot trainer. They have a lower useful load than a 172 fixed gear 2 people full fuel your at gross. Performance wise they are crappy. They drop like a rock in the dirty configuration and on hot days they drag there butt (way underpowered).
If you want a really good high wing airplane that has retractable gear and cruises get a Cessna 210. They can haul a ton of gear or people. Try and get one with the continental 550 engine and you will cook over the ground (150kt easy). Doesn’t have to be the pressurized kind but it’s an option and more expensive. I would dare to say they are as great as a 310 only with 3 differences. 20 knots slower than the old 310, only 1 engine to worry about maintenance and it sips the gas, slightly lower useful load by maybe 50lb. Other than that they are great!
I have time in both aircraft. Would love to own a 210 but you couldn’t pay me to keep a 172RG.
You know that feelin' you get in the pit of your stomache when you hear about a crash/emergency landing involving an airplane with your fingerprints under the cowl? We had a Cutlass RG land gear-up only a few hours after I had the LG actuators out for inspection. Scraped up the belly a little, prop strike... My heart fluttered for a day or so until word got back that the pilot had merely forgotten to extend the gear. The warning buzzer was working for the inspection, and later it tested ok, so eventually pilot error was settled on. The shop manager had to inspect my working area, and though he didn't inventory 'em, told me to make sure all my tools were there. Another thing that sucked about it: after all that work on the 500 hr actuator inspection, had to do it all over again. There was another incident on our other RG, where the actuator end of the gear leg simply broke. This time, they were flying dual and the instructor was able to keep his wits about him, reaching outside with his foot to pull the gear down and locked. Come to think of it, the RGs gave us a LOT more trouble than our fixed gear models. The pilots appreciated it, but didn't have to worry about the maint. costs.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: SteepTurn on June 04, 2006, 05:53:28 PM
Hy! C172 is not bad, but what's about a SR22, I can't get out of my mind this plane!!!! ;) ;)
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on June 04, 2006, 08:06:30 PM
Hy! C172 is not bad, but what's about a SR22, I can't get out of my mind this plane!!!! ;) ;)
If you can find one for me for $40k to $60k I'll take it!
Does anybody know anything about the RV homebuilt series??
@velojym: I know the feeling. Had 2 helicopters crash that I signed off on last. Both pilot errors, but the time between the crash and when they find out what happened...not my favorite... :-\
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: happylanding on June 04, 2006, 08:32:27 PM
If you can find one for me for $40k to $60k I'll take it!
try their site. they have a pre owned section. give a call. maybe it's your lucky day!!! |:)\
.......I sometimes read tooooo fast. sorry to hear that velojym. it must not be easy....
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Roland on June 04, 2006, 08:51:20 PM
@ velojym: sorry to red that. I’ve been in that road too many times. Once there was a fatal accident. That was not only one night I could not sleep well. After all it was absolutely not my fault. But it took time to find out. It was a fault by the manufacturer. A big one. And this people tried everything to get rid of that problem. The would not care if an engineer in Austria goes to jail as long as they could keep the problem away. Hard time those.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: spacer on June 04, 2006, 09:11:36 PM
Hy! C172 is not bad, but what's about a SR22, I can't get out of my mind this plane!!!! ;) ;)
If you can find one for me for $40k to $60k I'll take it!
Does anybody know anything about the RV homebuilt series??
@velojym: I know the feeling. Had 2 helicopters crash that I signed off on last. Both pilot errors, but the time between the crash and when they find out what happened...not my favorite... :-\
Thanks. Though I knew the pilot walked away (and we fixed the plane), I still missed a couple meals.
I know a few guys who built RV-6s, and they seem to love 'em. They go together very much like my CH801, and I understand the performance is very good, as is their economy. Chuck may have to try one. ;)
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Roland on June 04, 2006, 09:28:04 PM
Sure he has to! ;D
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on June 05, 2006, 04:37:25 AM
I've got a student that's building an RV-10. Probably a little more than you want to spend...150K, but you get a 250 hp engine that supposedly gets 6.5 gph at 17,000ft.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on June 05, 2006, 09:42:27 PM
I've got a student that's building an RV-10. Probably a little more than you want to spend...150K, but you get a 250 hp engine that supposedly gets 6.5 gph at 17,000ft.
So, they are up to RV10's now, huh?!
That was kind of what I am thinking here. Since they are up to the 10's, there might be a few 5's or 6's to be found somewhere for cheap. Ya know what I mean?!
But the problem is I know NOTHING about them.... (maybe I should ask Chuck ;) )
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: spacer on June 05, 2006, 10:36:11 PM
The 6, 7, and 9 are side by side 2-seaters, economical and fairly speedy. The RV-8 (makes me tingle plenty) is a tandem 2 seater that looks a little like a T-34. The RV-10, a recent development, is designed in order to allow for backseat pilots and/or the family dog (just bring something to cover the seats if your dog sheds like mine). The -10 is on my short list for a second airplane, after we've finished the 801. Or... maybe the third airplane cuz I'd like a simple light airplane for peapatch flying. I need a bigger hangar.
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Frank N. O. on June 22, 2006, 01:19:05 AM
Any news?
Frank
Title: Re: Thinking of buying a C-172...
Post by: Mike on June 22, 2006, 04:21:32 PM
You know, it's kinda frustrating...
I always have a lot of plans for things I want to do when we are sitting and waiting for the next fire. But we have been busy lately and every time we weren't on a fire, we were relocating to a position where the next fire "might" be. And the last couple of times we sat was in Mesquite, NV and Caliente, NV and as the names might already give away it's really really hot there. It seems like when it gets to about 110 degrees (I guess 40 - 45 celcius) my motivation to do anything goes downhill rather quickly and my brain isn't functioning as well (creative wise) as it should be. So I just sit there, frustrated, and play freecell or something....
I did talk to a lot of fixed wing guys here at the tanker base and found out a bunch of new things. It also looks like my company might buy and R44 just to do reliefs between all the contracts since any of our pilots could just jump in it and fly it. So, everything is still in the works.
I did get some Chicken Wings work done however and it looks like we might have found somebody for Oshkosh this year after all. I am kind of excited. I will keep you guys posted.
Tomorrow I should be home again for 2 days with aircondition and high speed internet connection, so I might get more research done as well.
