Roost Air Lounge => Aviation related topics => Topic started by: undatc on May 15, 2009, 08:29:10 AM
Title: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: undatc on May 15, 2009, 08:29:10 AM
So as it seems my life is starting it take off roll I figure its only right to set out some goals for on down the road (that hopefully one day not to many years in the future I can achieve). One of them is that I want my own plane, I dearly miss flying and want to get back in the left seat sooner rather than later. Once our contract with the FAA gets fixed (month or two most likely) I will be well on my way to paying off my student loan debt and should be able to make some headway on saving for something small.
As Im currently just a VFR pilot with low hours (54) I know before I jump to something bigger and faster I need to build up some flight time. Ideally I'd like to pick up something like a 152 or an old skyhawk to build time, and eventually pick up an IFR rating. However from there I'm not fully sure the process to go, so for those of you out there that own their own (or time share their own) what do you think?
I know things to consider are:
Maintenance Costs
Inspection Costs
Currency
Fuel/oil/tires/etc
Hanger/tie down costs
Hull/Liability Insurance
LLC fee's
anything else?
I was putzing around on trade a plane trying to figure out what one day I might be looking at and able to afford (aka dreaming), and was actually amazed to see how affordable financing options were for light GA aircraft. 100k with current rates comes out to about $700 a month which isn't to bad really. For the end all aircraft down the road I was considering the Lancair Legacy ( http://www.lancair.com/Main/legacy.html ), or the Velocity XL ( http://www.velocityaircraft.com/airplane-models-xl.html ). Both are comparable in price (new and used), both are home built which gives me the option of building it myself and saving some change there. Maybe I'm overlooking some other types of aircraft that are in this league? I've been looking around for the last few weeks and keep coming back to these two (as well as the glasair II http://www.glasairaviation.com/glasairSIIspecs.html ).
Basically what I'm looking for is an airframe that me and the misses, and a friend or two can hop in with luggage, and make it from Seattle to Reno or the Bay area with one or two stops in, and cruise about 190kts. A few of these aircraft can cruise up pretty high (some as far up as FL250) but I really dont think Id be needing that kind of altitude requirements.
What are your thoughts, other things to consider, or something I've completely missed?
Since I probably bored some of you with that rant, here is some eye candy. ;D
My favorite and the one I really want; the Velocity XL
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: cotejy on May 15, 2009, 01:24:00 PM
Interesting topic. I don't have a lot of answers to give you but I'm interesting on the input of others. I also plan on having my own plane and I looked at the velocity XL. The only problem I have with this airplane is that it's build in fiberglass. If you break something, it will cost a lot and if Velocity go bankrupcy, you will have problems to obtain parts. This is the only reason I won't go with this airplane. I'm currently thinking about the 4 seats Zenith. If someting break you can repair or build your own part from raw aluminium.
I hope you don't mind adding question to your topic undatc but I would be interested in anyone comments by who or who know someone who build his own airplane.
Oh, not sure if the same rule apply in the US but as for Maintenance, if you build it, you can do it yourself. So this cuts down the price.
Thats what I will probably build:
(http://www.zenair.com/pics/jeff1.jpg)
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: undatc on May 15, 2009, 06:27:51 PM
All three of the aircraft I posted about are actually made of composite materials, which makes the home building of the aircraft much easier. "Back in the day" repairing composite airframes was iffy at best, however with more and more homebuilt aircraft out there, and also several full production models (Cirrus and Diamond to name two), composite repair isn't as hard as you think.
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: tundra_flier on June 05, 2009, 09:38:59 PM
First off you need to ask yourself some questions:
1. What type of flying do you want to do? High and fast point A to point B? Low and slow, exploring the countryside? Camping in back country strips?
2. Solo or how many passengers typically? If you're solo most of the time, consider a two place. Especially if you can rent a 4 place when you need it. Double the seats triples the price of planes.
3. Do you enjoy the building process in and of itself? If not, don't try to build one, if it's just a means to get the plane you want you'll probably never finish it. Look for one that's already built instead, most typically sell for less than you can build one for (RV's being the exception).
4. Older planes sell cheap, but the purchase price can be considered a down payment. Many classics have outrageous parts costs these days, and things will wear out or break on older planes. for example a tail wheel spring for a Cessna 170 goes for $1800 these days. Unless you're into classics, try to stick with newer, or very common aircraft.
As for Composite vs. Aluminum vs. tube and fabric, they all have their advantages. Composite is easy to form complex shapes, quick to build with preformed parts, but tends to be very expensive due to the hazardous nature of the resins involved. Aluminum is typically the cheapest and lightest, but corrosion and fatique can be a problem and it's very labor intensive to repair. Tube and fabric is cheap, easy to repair and pretty rugged. That the reason it's still used for most bush planes. Corrosion and fatique can be a problem and it's limited to fairly simple shapes, so you don't find it on high speed aircraft.
If buying a used plane, condition is probably the over riding issue no matter what the type. Get a thorough pre-purchase by a mechanic that's familiar with the type.
Hope this helps. Phil
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: cotejy on June 08, 2009, 01:01:38 PM
Thanks Tundra, usefull information. For me, building is a fun think by itself. I'm done building my house, I'm starting to build a garage and after this, I need a new project. I've sent an email to Zenithair 6 days ago and didn't got any reply yet. If sales are that slow to answer, I'm wondering what will their after sales service will be...
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: tundra_flier on June 12, 2009, 05:43:42 PM
Thanks Tundra, usefull information. For me, building is a fun think by itself. I'm done building my house, I'm starting to build a garage and after this, I need a new project. I've sent an email to Zenithair 6 days ago and didn't got any reply yet. If sales are that slow to answer, I'm wondering what will their after sales service will be...
We're of the same mindset then. After I finish up several other projects I've got a set of Plans for a Bearhawk Patrol (the 2 seat version) just waiting to be built. ;D I'll be advertizing my Cessna 150 for sale shortly 8)
Phil
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: spacer on June 12, 2009, 10:04:53 PM
I've always gotten good responses from Zenith. Maybe they're pretty busy right now... Sebastian Heintz has a Facebook page, and I've usually gotten pretty quick responses from him there, as well.
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: cotejy on August 11, 2009, 02:04:40 PM
Maybe the canadian office in not as fast as it should. Anyway, they finally answered 2 weeks after my original message. They don't seem to be interested in pushing the Zodiac. They would prefer to sell the 4 seats STOL. Cruise at 105MPH at 75% and this is optimist according to what I read on other sites. Have to find something else because it's way to slow for me. Taking off in 100 feets is cool but getting to the destination faster than with my car is more usefull.
I found something a little more expensive but the shop is 40 miles from my home and their product look cool (bush caddy). Plus, I have the possibility to add floats if I ever need to. (http://www.bushcaddy.com/images/Completions/L164mo1.jpg) (http://www.bushcaddy.com/images/HRfourplace3.jpg)
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: Bruce on August 20, 2009, 07:00:31 PM
4. Older planes sell cheap, but the purchase price can be considered a down payment. Many classics have outrageous parts costs these days, and things will wear out or break on older planes. for example a tail wheel spring for a Cessna 170 goes for $1800 these days. Unless you're into classics, try to stick with newer, or very common aircraft.
Hope this helps. Phil
I don't know where you're getting your parts, Phil, but parts for my 170 don't cost that much. Tailwheel springs are less than $200 from Aircraft Spruce http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/c170twspr.php or Univair http://univairparts.com/shopping/advanced_search_result.php?search_in_description=1&keywords=tailwheel+spring&categories_id=38&osCsid=5f7dec2c59215042809be2607c7f6200&inc_subcat=1&Submit=Search
IMHO a 170A or B is about as low cost flying as can be had. Not real fast, but a good two passenger and marginal four passenger (like most four passenger planes), six gph, all metal, good on grass. If you want just get from here to there fast, probably not the best choice, but still a good all around plane.
Bruce
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: spacer on November 17, 2009, 07:48:24 PM
That's what I keep coming back to, an economical four-place bird. Either a C172 or a Cherokee 140-180. I don't think I'd turn my nose up at a 170, though, especially since we have a tailwheel instructor onsite who'd be able to provide training if it were my plane. A two seater is great, especially for time building, and in a position like mine, I can still rent the Cherokee 180 I've been flying, or the FBO's 172 if I needed more capacity.
Still... between bang-for-the-buck and easy maintenance, I think a Cherokee would be just about perfect for me. Your mileage may vary, and you may do as well in a Cessna 150 or a Tomahawk, but I'm 6'4 and not a small guy, so, well... there ya go.
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: Chopper Doc on November 18, 2009, 01:51:26 AM
I built a Zenair 701; found the Heinz family a pleasure to deal with, and the aircraft was everything it was advertised to be: solo takeoff and landing in a combined distance of under 100', no wind. The STOL aircraft are, however, not fast. It's not an issue if that's what you want, but it's not a great travelling machine (unless, of course, you're travelling to that hunt camp in thhe mountains).
As far as cost goes, you're not saving anything versus a 170, 150, 172 or similar. Owners can perform elementary tasks to service their aircraft, and if you've got a good rapport with your AME/A&P then you might help with the annual, save a buck, and maybe even learn something.
As an engineer I have to say, however, that the best money you'll spend on your aircraft is maintenance (and I do HAVE to say tha; it's a condition of my licence). Not just a joke, though, since a good engineer will help you avoid buying a lemon (nobody wants a flying lemon) and will help you safely get the best service from your aircraft.
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: Mitchell99 on December 02, 2009, 01:16:42 AM
Don't forget Comp Air. They have several models that will hold 4 to 6 people and cruise at some respectiable speeds. I like the Comp Air 7 SLX turbine the best. http://www.aerocompinc.com/
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: undatc on December 02, 2009, 07:30:46 AM
Don't forget Comp Air. They have several models that will hold 4 to 6 people and cruise at some respectiable speeds. I like the Comp Air 7 SLX turbine the best. http://www.aerocompinc.com/
I dont think a turbine, as far as cost for an an average person, is very feasible. Very interesting thou. I'll have to read more on it.
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: Jean Loup on December 14, 2009, 08:50:51 PM
...As an engineer I have to say, however, that the best money you'll spend on your aircraft is maintenance (and I do HAVE to say tha; it's a condition of my licence). Not just a joke, though, since a good engineer will help you avoid buying a lemon (nobody wants a flying lemon) and will help you safely get the best service from your aircraft.
::thinking:: That applies to ALL VEHICLES: on land like automobiles, trucks and motorcycles, or on water like outboards, inboards or sail. Maintenance is BASIC for their safe operation. Then come piloting skills...not driver; PILOT like in race cars...that would avoid many road accidents! ::sulk::
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: cotejy on December 15, 2009, 03:23:14 PM
...As an engineer I have to say, however, that the best money you'll spend on your aircraft is maintenance (and I do HAVE to say tha; it's a condition of my licence). Not just a joke, though, since a good engineer will help you avoid buying a lemon (nobody wants a flying lemon) and will help you safely get the best service from your aircraft.
::thinking:: That applies to ALL VEHICLES: on land like automobiles, trucks and motorcycles, or on water like outboards, inboards or sail. Maintenance is BASIC for their safe operation. Then come piloting skills...not driver; PILOT like in race cars...that would avoid many road accidents! ::sulk::
Applies to all vehicule with the exception of Toyota. ;) Add fuel when empty, change oil every 6-7k miles and don't look anything else. 230k miles (about 50k pulling a trailer) on the counter with this attitude and counting. ok, ok, true, I changed break pads once and spark plugs once too.
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: undatc on December 22, 2009, 12:53:11 AM
Applies to all vehicule with the exception of Toyota. ;) Add fuel when empty, change oil every 6-7k miles and don't look anything else. 230k miles (about 50k pulling a trailer) on the counter with this attitude and counting. ok, ok, true, I changed break pads once and spark plugs once too.
My new BMW's manual actually recommends changing the oil every 15k miles. Crazy eh?
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: Fabo on December 22, 2009, 09:29:01 AM
Why? I'd say it is becoming standart now.
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: Jean Loup on December 22, 2009, 08:30:44 PM
I am changing engine oil every 3,000 ml, and my '73 VW Combi, 1,700 cc automatic, never had the engine block openened yet, nor the automatic needs any overhaul. Automatic oil change is every 30,000 ml (diferential oil included) and has the original CV joints, because I do (my own) maintenance & service: suspension, steering, brakes, tune-ups...all is done by me (& my tools) My VW bus has...8 speedometer turns !!! The last one under my ownership; day to day driving in the city, the open road & off-road, for the last 12 years. It is my mobile shop for servicing VW at home.
Instead of waging WW II, herr Hitler ::loony:: should have started selling VWs...
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: cotejy on December 24, 2009, 02:54:37 PM
15k miles! I think BMW is having too much trust in oil capacity!
I agree with donYan. I don't let any garage touch my cars after the warenty is over. It's 25 bellow zero outside and the car sit there for one hour. The regular garage will take the car inside shut down the engine, do the oil change in 12 minutes. How can you change oil correctly in 12 minutes with a iced engine and cold oil?
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: undatc on December 25, 2009, 06:32:39 PM
15k miles! I think BMW is having too much trust in oil capacity!
I agree with donYan. I don't let any garage touch my cars after the warenty is over. It's 25 bellow zero outside and the car sit there for one hour. The regular garage will take the car inside shut down the engine, do the oil change in 12 minutes. How can you change oil correctly in 12 minutes with a iced engine and cold oil?
The dealor says that the new special synthetic oil that BMW uses is good till 15k. I cant even check the oil, the iDrive system tells you when you're low and to go in to have the service department top it off.
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: Fabo on December 26, 2009, 12:33:12 PM
Well, either I am computing something wrong, or you use different kinds of oil in the us? Maybe the lifetime has to do with different petrol you use. ::knockedout::
Title: Re: GA Aviation - Owning your own
Post by: Jean Loup on January 07, 2010, 11:17:05 PM
15k miles! I think BMW is having too much trust in oil capacity!
I agree with donYan. I don't let any garage touch my cars after the warenty is over. It's 25 bellow zero outside and the car sit there for one hour. The regular garage will take the car inside shut down the engine, do the oil change in 12 minutes. How can you change oil correctly in 12 minutes with a iced engine and cold oil?
When I trained at VW interamericana, (let's go back to 1965!) they said the oil was for:
a)- lubricating the parts (the oil is "carrying" the crank, for instance) so they don't touch one another. b)- sealing the parts (rings, seals...etc) for no preasure leaks. c)- cooling the engine insides (valves cool trhough their guides & oil flow evacuates that heat to the sump, for instance) d)- cleaning the engine insides (has detergent) & keeping the wear solids in suspension...that's where changing the oil when HOT is important! All that garbage is eliminated.
The air cooled VW engine had no filter; the cause was that the oil molecule gets destroyed by quick (or abrupt) temperature changes, like the ones common in aircooled engines. So, the oil was changed every 2,500 Km. With two and a half liters of sump capacity, oil change was (and still is) cheap. The oil used was Monograde, because it is more robust to temperature changes (most of the time the VW engine works at high temp ranges).
We say "aircooled" when more than 70% of VW engine parts are oil cooled. Take that oil cooler out, and the engine lasts maybe a week! Or 100 Km on the road...one hour!
My 1963 VW bus never has had the engine case open...now, 8 speedometer turns old...(in miles! not Km) and works day to day, road or city: uses litle gas, and I am not in a hurry with the lanscapes in this country. Top speed is 90 Ml/h, and goes up to México city (2,500 meters altitude) at 60 Ml/h loaded...No, not a Porsche at all!
P.D.- MY bus engine has an oil filter: ads half a liter more of lubricant/cooler oil...
