Chicken Wings Forum

Roost Air Lounge => The Classroom => Topic started by: Mike on June 05, 2008, 04:41:16 PM

Title: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Mike on June 05, 2008, 04:41:16 PM
Ok, next question:

What do you guys and aviation geeks know about the S-61??
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on June 05, 2008, 11:03:53 PM
Uhmmmm... its a helicopter... and it was built by Sikorsky?

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Frank N. O. on June 06, 2008, 12:40:34 AM
The RDAF's Search and Rescue squadron, Esq. 722, have used a special danish hybrid-version of the S-61, the S-61A-1 until last year (although with the Merlin's major problems maybe some are still being used or is in back-up). The danish birds are hybrids between the normal S-61 Sea King and the civilian S-61N which was/is(?) used in Greenland flights, one of the main details the danish S-61s have are the civilian model's large fixed pontons for water-landings as opposed to the Sea Kings small emergency inflatable ones. The danish models were also fitted with a large 530L centre tank just under the COG where the drop sonar is on the Sea Kings. The danish models were later upgraded with RADAR, FLIR and GPS and have been a very familiar sight with only few accidents over more than 40 years. The rescue helicopters are also used as air ambulances, especially from the many small inhabited islands Denmark has, and also as support and VIP transport etc.

A main issue with the danish S-61s and probably the others variants as well, is the problem with ice on the rotorblades since there is no heating element in them as opposed to the EH-101 Merlin. However the Merlins have been on the ground a looooong time and had a lot of problems and is turning out to be a political scandal for Denmark. I wonder how that will impact the purchase of the replacements for the danish F-16s since the advanced fighter project is turning out to be more and more expensive so the Super Hornet from Boeing is now looking to be just as cheap, and Boeing have approached Denmark again unofficially presumably to offer the Super Hornet instead of the new fighter project that the danish industry however already invested billions in, but I digress.

Mike are you going to replace Jane?

Here's a picture of a S-61A-1 from Esqadrille (that's danish for Squadron) 722 http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billede:S-61-DK-01.jpg
Btw, according to what I've read then not all S-61s have the designation Sea King, not sure which one does but from what I know then the danish S-61A-1s are not one of them despite the info on the RDAF homepage.

Frank
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Oddball on June 06, 2008, 07:11:59 AM
well the s-61 was mainly built for the coast guard from a conversion of a commercial type apart from that its a h********r.
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: G-man on June 06, 2008, 01:18:57 PM
well the s-61 was mainly built for the coast guard from a conversion of a commercial type apart from that its a h********r.

Actually the othe way around:

"In 1957, Sikorsky was awarded a contract to develop an all-weather amphibious helicopter. It would combine submarine hunter and killer roles. The prototype flew on March 11, 1959. It became operational with the United States Navy in June 1961 as the HSS-2. The designation for the aircraft was changed with the introduction of the unified aircraft designation system in 1962 to the SH-3A. It was used primarily for anti-submarine warfare, but also served in anti-ship, search and rescue, transport, communications, executive transport and Airborne Early Warning roles".
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Oddball on June 06, 2008, 04:22:06 PM
you have a scandal with you Merlins frank while we have one with our chinook HCMK3's they have been in storage for the past SEVEN years due to a avionic problem. this was in the news a few days ago on the BBC.
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: G-man on June 06, 2008, 06:31:00 PM
So Mike--what are you not telling me?? First the S-62, now this thread.. You are just trying to go bigger than me and the Huey huh  ::thinking::  ::thinking::

Is Papa Phil on board with you?? Well, maybe I will meed to trump you..

Who knows anything about the S-64?  ::whistle:: ::whistle::
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Fabo on June 06, 2008, 06:57:53 PM
hm...

Who knows anything anout Mil Mi-171?
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Mike on June 07, 2008, 03:18:06 AM
So Mike--what are you not telling me?? First the S-62, now this thread.. You are just trying to go bigger than me and the Huey huh  ::thinking::  ::thinking::

Is Papa Phil on board with you?? Well, maybe I will meed to trump you..

Who knows anything about the S-64?  ::whistle:: ::whistle::

I can tell you the story behind the S-62 on the phone this week if you want.
The S-61 is just for my own research which maybe I will use to talk certain people into doing certain things . . . but right now it's just an idea.....
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Lt.Fubar on September 22, 2009, 12:26:53 PM
We've had joy we've had fun
We've had sea kings in the sun
But the engines are on fire
And the sea kings must retire

 ::whistle::

Don't know if any information would be still needed... if not, well someone else can use it.

Let's start that the Sikorsky S-61 was build in 3 countries - US by the Sikorsky (obviously), England by the Westland, and Italy by Agusta. Only one building them for civilian market was Sikorsky, that produced 200+ of the S-61N and S-61L variants - all have longer fuselage than the mil-spec. The L probably could stand for "Land" as that one don't have side sponsons, nor retractable gear, but can have baggage compartment in the lower part of the fuselage - accessed from the sides (like on the buses). The N (naval/amphibious one) can pretty much float on itself, have retractable gear, and vertical stabilizer at different angle than the L or military versions.

The English version of the "Queen of the skies" was the strangest of them all - those were pretty much license build US military SH-3, but powered by their version of T58 turbine - called the Gnome, had more tail rotor blades (6 instead of 5) and some are exceptionally goofy looking, having outboard long range radar inside retractable, inflatable Kevlar bag... English ingenuity amaze me all the time. They also did non-amphibious assault version called "commando" that had the sponsons and retractable gear removed and replaced with fixed one with emergency floats.

The Italian build something completely different - they licensed the S-61R variant (rearranged landing gear position, long fuselage, and a loading ramp at the back) - that one was made for USAF, as transport and CSAR platform under the name of CH-3E Jolly Green (than with retractable refueling probe - HH-3E), the same variant also was purchased by USCG as HH-3F Pelican (remember, it's PeliCAN, not PeliCAN'T ! ;) ). Interesting facts about that one are - those were first and only helicopters to cross the Atlantic without landing, for 1967 Paris Air Show two of the HH-3Es flown from US to France, accompanied by KC-130 tanker - the trip took 30 hours (!), both than flown to Thailand and in 1970, took part in the Son Tay Raid (Operation Ivory Coast) - one of those (call sign Banana 1) was deliberately, successfully crashed inside the prison camp with strike force inside.

The H-3 is still in use in the military, though it is being replaced by newer machines like SH-60R/S in US Navy, or NH90 and AW101 in all over Europe.

Although some users still modify them - the Canadians modified few CH-124 as troop transports increasing its survivability, many details on that are in the 2007 Sea King Symposium presentation, that can be downloaded here (http://www.seakingsymposium.com/docs/CH124%20Update%20and%20Standing%20Contingency%20Task%20Force.pdf).

On civilian market the S-61 are still going strong... and apparently still be in the future. Although almost all the ones that were used until now in maritime SAR roles, are resold, and modified for utility work. Today we can find 4 types of those helicopters making money - the previously described S-61N and L, and also few S-61R (those are usually modified by removing sponsons and replacing retractable main landing gear with fixed one). There are also many specially modified versions called "Shortsky" - those are S-61s shortened in length - comparable in size to military versions (some actually have fuselage from SH-3s), few were build like that, most are retrofits of the longer N and L. Shortsky have lower empty weight, so with the same MTOW can lift more.

There are many other modifications done to the civilian helicopters - most famous one, are the new composite blades - designed by NASA, then bought by Carson... manufactured by I-don't-remember-who. the blades alone give more payload (about 2000lb more) and speed. Currently Carson is also working on tail rotor and new glass cockpit. Although the main problem currently are the engines.

The T58 turbine used on civilian Sea Kings is the dash-10 version with max continuous power of 1400shp, currently there are talks about certifying installation of newer engines from CH-46 - the dash-16 with max continuous power of 1870shp. The Gnome engines installed on British Sea Kings actually already have around 1800shp, although for some reasons can't get certified for the civilian S-61s.

The lack of OEI power is pretty much the main concern for those machines - and we had an example of it last year during the California fire, where Carson "Fire King" crashed, after loosing power in hot&high&overloaded situation.

Only scratching the surface here, I have some Flight Manuals for the civilian and military versions, if anyone have specific question, will try to answer those...
Unfortunately don't have supplements for the Carson blade kit - if anyone could share that I would really appreciate it.
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Mike on September 22, 2009, 05:51:57 PM
Woah!  ::unbelieveable::
That was a lot, and good, information, Thanks!!
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Lt.Fubar on September 22, 2009, 06:27:15 PM
Didn't know what info you really need, so wrote an overview, trying to write something else than you can find in Wikipedia  ;)

BTW those modifications, few years back, in the "Vertical" magazine, there was an article about the Carson "Fire King". I made an pdf of it and uploaded into rapidshare, you can download it here (http://rapidshare.com/files/283575606/FireKing01.pdf.html) (sorry for the quality, but djvu to pdf does that)
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Mike on September 26, 2009, 07:48:14 PM
ok, so which kind of S-61 is this one here?!?
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Lt.Fubar on September 26, 2009, 08:13:50 PM
That my friend is a rare find!  ::unbelieveable::

That's S-61A - mil-spec (although modified) fuselage, can't really tell which one, might be SH-3A, or CH-3B (one was sold as civilian when USAF stopped operating them), don't think this is D, G or H, as those are available only to the LE.

Obvious modifications to the original is the undercarriage - this is from S-61L. The bubble window, intake covers, and Carson Main rotor blades kit. That one sure can lift few tons.
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Mike on September 26, 2009, 11:19:52 PM
 ::thinking:: hmmmmm....

the tank says 1000gal capacity on it, so it may do 4 tons!!  ::unbelieveable::

Seen it drop water on the "Oak Glen" fire early in the month. Looks like a lot of it coming out on the drop.....
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Lt.Fubar on September 26, 2009, 11:39:15 PM
I'm not sure if with Carson kit those are certified to lift more than normal. But for normal operation, unmodified S61s have hooks certified for 8000lb, this light bird with Carson kit should be able to lift at least 3000lb more + crew + fuel... at least at sea level.

Where did you found it ? And what's its reg?

[edit]
Never mind the reg - just found it, it's N9696W, that makes it ex-Navy SH-3A, C/N 61147, build in 1960... this might be the oldest S-61 in civilian use  ;) A rare find indeed.
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Mike on September 27, 2009, 12:53:49 AM
Wow.

I had no idea. Never seen the operator before so I snapped a picture....
Thanks for the info!
 ::wave::
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: G-man on September 27, 2009, 01:26:29 AM
Three more---I thought I had a pic of the "Bumble Bee" but cannot find it...

(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/Helo-general/DSCN0683.jpg)

(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/Helo-general/DSC_0145.jpg)

(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/Helo-general/IMG_0209.jpg)

(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/Helo-general/0521081748.jpg)

(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/Helo-general/DSC_00403.jpg)

(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/Helo-general/DSC_0513.jpg)
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Lt.Fubar on September 27, 2009, 05:52:33 PM
Uuu... Shiny! More interesting birds... didn't seen that Construction N1043T one yet, that's ex-SH-3A too, although 22 years younger (probably rebuild from few SH-3As ;) )

Remember there are only about 25 civilian S-61A certified - you can easily recognize one by having two part door on the left, just behind the cockpit. At least 6 are owned by the Sikorsky... and probably not flying.

Don't look at the right door. For example, that Carson N7011M have S-61A wide, sliding door... yet it is modified S-61N (higher angle of the tail is a giveaway here).
The second short Carson - N116AZ don't give any illusions, lots of windows, high angle vertical stab - it's an S-61N too - 45years old at that ;)
The other two Construction Helicopters Inc S-61s - the N905CH and N906CH... you guess which one they are ;)

The Last one - Canadian C-GJDR Shortsky on the other hand is a nice presentation, how shortened S-61L looks like. Note also that from all G-man pictures, that one is the only one with old blades, not the composite Carson kit.

...

Man I feel like ornithologist here  ::drinking::
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Fabo on September 27, 2009, 07:06:50 PM
Man, you sure know your things about those Sikorskis!
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: G-man on September 28, 2009, 01:05:55 AM
Uuu... Shiny! More interesting birds... didn't seen that Construction N1043T one yet, that's ex-SH-3A too, although 22 years younger (probably rebuild from few SH-3As ;) )

Its the second one down---It is our sister ship on the CT Forest with LaFawnduh... Incidentally, Curt who is flying in this picture, is one of the highest time 61 drivers out there---rumor has it, he has been flying them for 30 years.

(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/Pokie%2009/DSC_0160.jpg)
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Lt.Fubar on September 28, 2009, 12:50:55 PM
Man, you sure know your things about those Sikorskis!
Well it is one of my favorite helos, and I spend a lot of time studying photos and whatever document I could get my hands on, when I was working on a small personal project that involved making S-61N blueprints... not much came out of it though.
Its the second one down---It is our sister ship on the CT Forest with LaFawnduh... Incidentally, Curt who is flying in this picture, is one of the highest time 61 drivers out there---rumor has it, he has been flying them for 30 years.
I was once directed by John Dixson (ex-Sikorsky test pilot) to Charlie Evans (also ex-Sikorsky employee) heard he was the most experienced S-61 driver out there, didn't asked how much he have flown though.

G-man, could you ask for me - which RFMs are they using on those S-61As ? I don't have one for those, only USAF CH-3B, and the long S-61N/L and R(both USAF and USCG).
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Winnie on October 08, 2010, 01:13:00 PM
Let's start that the Sikorsky S-61 was build in 3 countries - US by the Sikorsky (obviously), England by the Westland, and Italy by Agusta.

The English version of the "Queen of the skies" was the strangest of them all - those were pretty much license build US military SH-3, but powered by their version of T58 turbine - called the Gnome, had more tail rotor blades (6 instead of 5) and some are exceptionally goofy looking, having outboard long range radar inside retractable, inflatable Kevlar bag... English ingenuity amaze me all the time. They also did non-amphibious assault version called "commando" that had the sponsons and retractable gear removed and replaced with fixed one with emergency floats.

The Italian build something completely different - they licensed the S-61R variant

Three things,
Japan (Kawasaki Heavy Industries) actually licensebuilt the HSS-2 Sea King for their defence forces

Italy licensebuilt the SH-3A/S-61A as well for the Italian Navy and airforce, the "Popehelicopter" is currently an S-61A operated by the Italian Air Force.

The Westland Sea King I have somewhat intimate knowledge of, I practically grew up with them. They were originally delivered with the standards 5 bladed tail rotor, but Westland designed a 6 bladed tail  rotor to give more tail rotor authority, which did not really happen. You can see the difference if you google german sea kings, Mk 41 for their air force and for their navy. Mostly the difference is the 5 and 6 bladed tail rotor.
Westland built machines also got Composite blades in the early 90's that changed the profile a tad, and were lighter. I believe they are also looking at outfitting them with the Carson blades now. The westland built Sea Kings are similar in looks to an SH-3D with additional mods and antennas.

Cheers
Winnie, resident Sea King afficionado...
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Lt.Fubar on October 11, 2010, 09:53:48 AM
Wasn't the Japanese airframes assembled in 80% of imported (American) parts ?
Title: Re: Sikorsky S-61
Post by: Winnie on October 19, 2010, 02:19:44 PM
Still considered to be License built. They are Known as Kawasaki/Sikorsky HSS-2.

Cheers
H.
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