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Roost Air Lounge => Aviation related topics => Topic started by: Frank N. O. on February 10, 2006, 11:43:30 PM

Title: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Frank N. O. on February 10, 2006, 11:43:30 PM
I thought this might be an interesting thread and I hope I'm right.

I've personally seen a AN-124 at Billund Airport (EKBI) thrue the fence at the main road that goes diagonally at the end of the runway near Legoland (Lego created the airport originally for personal traffic if I recal correctly and now it's a main international airport). I had my late dad's old big binoculars so I could easily see the AN124 (written in cyrillic I think it's called, looks like AH-124).

Another one I've seen right up close and personal is a PBY-5 Catalina at a museum north of Copenhagen that also houses a DC-3, Caravelle, several ex-RDAF (Royal Danish Air Force) vintage jet-fighters from a Gloster Meteor to a Starfighter, a few old cars and a KZ-IV ambulance plane (danish airplane factory).

I also went to a open day at a now closed danish air force base also north of Cph in the mid or late 80s and saw the Red Arrows and a hovering Harrier and that made an impression on me too like someone else mentioned elsewhere in the forum, however what I remember is my stomach shaking like a jello-cake in a paint-shaker from the shockwaves of the deflected exhuast lol.

Of course the Cardinal I flew was the most memorable. They say boxer-engines are vibration-free but they sure aren't when starting and definately not when shutting down, that whole plane shook from side to say when stopping, but of course I've later found out those 4 and 6 cylinder engines in planes have the displacement of truck engines!

Greetings
Frank
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 11, 2006, 12:08:07 AM
Is the AN-124 the biggest plane?  I believe I got to see that one up close.  An ex-girlfriends dad worked at the airport in Houston, and took me out to the flight line one day.  Also walked through a C-5 at the Fargo Airsho this summer.  Also got close to F-15, F-16, and F-18's.  The North Dakota Air Museum is on the field here at Fargo, and they have a P-51, a PT-19, a Zero, B-25, 2 DC-3's, an TBM Avenger, an F4U Corsair, and the only Super Corsair in the world.  It's pretty cool hanging out on the ramp in the summer.  :)

I've also had a chance to fly a glass cockpit 182.  :)  Very cool toy, but not my choice for a trainer.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Frank N. O. on February 11, 2006, 01:49:05 AM
The AN-225, one built, is derived from the 124 but longer and with a new wing with 6 vs 4 engines and it's the biggest plane in the world to my knowledge, I just checked and it seems the length and wingspan are a few meters bigger than the A380 however I'm not sure how big the C-5 Galaxy is, or the Spruce Goose for that matter, but they are all among the biggest planes in the world for sure. Walking thrue a C-5 must've been a fantastic experience.

A glass-cockpit 182 sounds interesting but I think the whole cockpit should be redesigned to get the most out of the instruments, like some cars have it, but that would also require non-std. shaped screens and a new non-flat panel and a new seating-position etc. but I think it could be done though, just not in old designs like the Cessna singles. Btw do you know if it's still required/needed to have analogue/mechanical back-up instruments? I don't know how reliable electronic instruments are in airplanes but I've seen many glass-cockpits in airliners having classic instruments inbetween the new ones, I'm playing with a concept-cockpit so I'd like to know if I need to incorporate round instruments as well.

Back to classic planes then I think there's a Spitfire in a museum (that also has a public airfield) in the west-coast of Denmark and many other classic planes including a few that only exist one of now, and several fly regularly from their airfield so you can see them, I wish I could visit it some day.

Btw do you know if the YF-23 is still intact, I heard at least one of the two was put in a museum on display without engines (there were two ATF-prototype engines, one of which is used in the F-22 I think, the two YF-23's each tested one of them), and if you know, is it possible to look into the cockpit of it?
Btw speaking of cockpits, the Starfighter in the museum I visited last year had a ladder up to it and a open canopy, a row in children in fact climbed in it, and not far from the plane and behind the Caravelle, you could also go in, was a old full-cockpit flightsimulator from an old airliner, but I can't remember which one.

Greetings
Frank
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on February 11, 2006, 01:51:32 AM
Hmmm...

SR-71, Sikorsky Skycrane, Fieseler Storch, but my favorite of all of them is the

F4 Corsair!!!
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Inept on February 11, 2006, 02:20:55 AM
The B-25 that landed at KALN, and got fuel at the FBO that I trained at was incredible, and I got to walk through a cargo DC-3 at an arishow in Illinois, sorry, don't remember where.   I wish I could have seen it leave, that would have been something.

There is the G4 that is stationed at KALN that has had the misfortune of getting sequenced behind me  and my 172 for takeoff more than once.    ;D

If anyone gets the chance, there is a good aviation museum in Rantoul, IL, Identifier KTIP.   The outdoor aircraft display is on the ramp opposite the FBO.   The entrance is within walking distance of sircraft parking and the FBO.   it makes a great day trip.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Turbomallard on February 11, 2006, 02:44:55 PM
Space Ship one (along with White Knight) at Airventure 2005. No question! Global Flyer wasn't too shabby, either. I was surprised at how small they were in person... like many things, seeing them on a screen makes them larger than life. When I got home I watched the Black Sky DVDs (which, if it were possible to wear out a DVD I would have worn out long ago) and noted that many of the close shots of the vehicles were done with the camera just about on the ground looking up. Better camera angle but it did make the air/spacecraft look larger than they really are. It was amazing to stand around and chat with many of the technical folks from Scaled that I remembered from the video, ask questions, talk about flying. You can keep your average "celebrity" who looks pretty in front of a camera but has problems spelling their name... I have no interest in meeting them. Meeting the Scaled folks, though, was beyond description. And Mike Melvill signed my Sonex hat. Wearing it while I'm struggling to make a bracket for the airplane out of a raw piece of alumunum angle (I've never done ANYTHING mechanical in my life before this and have NO experience with metalworking and owned only a drill and a couple of screwdrivers) somehow gives me confidence.

End rant  :D

TM
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Turbomallard on February 11, 2006, 03:05:06 PM


Btw do you know if the YF-23 is still intact, I heard at least one of the two was put in a museum on display without engines (there were two ATF-prototype engines, one of which is used in the F-22 I think, the two YF-23's each tested one of them), and if you know, is it possible to look into the cockpit of it?


One YF-23 is listed as being at the museum at Edwards... not sure how open that may be to the public. The other is being restored and will be returned to the Western Museum of Flight later this year: http://www.wmof.com/yf23a.htm
 
It would be really cool to see one!   8)

TM
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 11, 2006, 06:06:32 PM
A glass-cockpit 182 sounds interesting but I think the whole cockpit should be redesigned to get the most out of the instruments, like some cars have it, but that would also require non-std. shaped screens and a new non-flat panel and a new seating-position etc. but I think it could be done though, just not in old designs like the Cessna singles. Btw do you know if it's still required/needed to have analogue/mechanical back-up instruments? I don't know how reliable electronic instruments are in airplanes but I've seen many glass-cockpits in airliners having classic instruments inbetween the new ones, I'm playing with a concept-cockpit so I'd like to know if I need to incorporate round instruments as well.

The glass cockpit airplanes have to have steam gauge back-ups.  At least an airspeed indicator, altimeter, and attitude indicator.  The Garmin G1000 has 3 computers that run certain parts of each display.  If you lose all 3, you still have a GPS and the conventional gauge back-ups. 

I'm confused about your new instrument panel design.  If you're looking to get a patent, you don't have to reveal anything.  Sounds interesting, though.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: FlyingBlind on February 11, 2006, 08:15:57 PM
Most amazing ? That would have to be the Robinson helicopter! Small little bugger amazingly fast and agile...
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Firegirl on February 12, 2006, 03:10:19 AM
The most amazing machine I've seen in person is the "Martin Mars"  There are only two of these aircrafts left in the world and both aircraft make their home in British Columbia, Canada.  I had seen this aircraft in person and have seen it deliver water to a forest fire I was working on in the North part of Washington State. 

The martin mars are belly scoopers.  A flying boat.  It has the capability of jettisoning 7,200 US gallons (27,276 litres) at one time.  That's approximately 60,000 pounds (27,216 Kilograms) of payload, water that is, in each drop.  Let me tell you........It is an impressive sight.  We all stand in awe of this incredible machine. 

If anyone is interested they have a website.  www.martinmars.com
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 12, 2006, 05:44:33 PM
I read an article on the Mars planes a number of years ago in Air & Space magazine.  I think there were 4 left at that time.  I guess they used to be transport planes during the Vietnam era.  Very impressive.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 12, 2006, 06:01:16 PM
Guess I should have looked at the mars website before I opened my mouth.   :-[
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Frank N. O. on February 12, 2006, 07:13:44 PM
Wow guys have surely seen some nice machines, of course what's amazing is of course individual, for me a Cessna would be amazing if I owned it.

The cockpit design is nothing special just using the look and shape of a newer car interior with custom-designed integrated electronic instruments to get a lower panel with better view of the important information and better view over the nose also enabling a more reclined and comfortable seating position, if it's at all possible that is, it's not something that could be sold sadly, it's part of a personal dream plane of mine, it's a sub-sonic ducted fan 2-seater so it's not out of this world but still.

Mike: AS, that's the one they used in the Gone In 60 Seconds movie (2000) right? Looks very agile, but maybe you'd add the BO-105 to the list if you ever get to see that german video :D The Sikorsky Skycrane is also one big helicopter indeed!

Speaking of float-planes, I remembered incorrectly, the Catalina I saw was a PBY-6A, not 5, I checked the website, and the sim is a DC8 and they have a DC7 cockpit as well, or maybe it was the other way around.

I just remembered btw that I think I may have seen a Starship fly over my childhood home, or maybe it was a Rutan LongEZ, or maybe both. There was one not far from where I lived that we saw on TV making the LongEZ (pronounced and sometimes spelled LongEasy) but I also know the danish businessman Spiess had a Starship and being 30 km south of Copenhagen and having both Roskilde and Kastrup (Copenhagen) Airport within minutes of flight then it could very well have been a Starship too, but this was 15 years or so ago so I can't remember that well. One time there as well my dad came home for lunch (truck driver) and just as I went out the house and hugged him 3 RDAF F-16s came right over us in a V-formation so low I could read the letter on it, if I was fast enough, and right over our heads: BAAAAANGGGGG!!!!!!!! Not fun when you're a kid with sensitive ears but wild indeed and good thing my dad was there to hug me, I miss him and that big bear-hug :(

Frank
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: chuckar101 on February 15, 2006, 07:48:35 PM
Let's see, coolest aircraft I've seen would have to be 90% of the aircraft at the Air and Space Museum.  The best was the ME-262.  Flying ones would be the old F4-F Wildcat I saw at the air races.  Coolest thing about that was it tried to race and you could definately tell the difference in eras when a P-51 went by then the F4 went by.  Sounded like a little toy compared to the P-51. 
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Sleek-Jet on February 15, 2006, 08:09:31 PM
I read an article on the Mars planes a number of years ago in Air & Space magazine.  I think there were 4 left at that time.  I guess they used to be transport planes during the Vietnam era.  Very impressive.

I've got that issue in a box somewhere... If I find it, I'll scan the article and post it.  ;D

Most amazing.... hmmmm.... that would have to be the Pond Racer at Reno in '91... it crashed the next year. 

I got to fuel the original production Citation one day while working the ramp, and a real honest to god working DC-3 that came through one weekend.  Had to go fill the 100LL truck up twice to top that old girl off. ;D

I also know where there is one of the few remaining Super Corsair's is hangared.  I used to go stand next to it everynight in the hanger and try to figure out some way to fly it.  :D

Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Plthijnx on February 15, 2006, 10:31:56 PM
when i was flying yesterday i saw "the guppy" (http://www.air-and-space.com/20050414%20Boron/DSC_9005%20Super%20Guppy%20201%20N941NA%20right%20front%20in%20flight%20l.jpg) landing at ellington field. that was pretty cool!
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on February 16, 2006, 05:14:29 AM
We had a Bearcat, a B25, and two Super Connies in CMA which were also very impressive. Watching the Constellation start up was an adventure in itself.
Another one I've seen and really liked is the B-17 !!! What a machine!!
(the B-17 strips aren't invented either! ;))
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Roland on February 16, 2006, 07:04:43 AM
I found to observe a Kaman K-Max flying logs out of steep woods amazing.

But the most amazing aircraft I have seen in action was a C 130 Hercules doing a flight display at an air-show. The showed STOL abilities, flyby with rear ramp down and the two outboard engines off and on a steep the approach you could see through the whole plane …
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on February 16, 2006, 10:04:36 AM
Speaking of K-Max, I have a question for you fling-wing jocks,   Do the Kaman fly much different than standard helicopter?   In the absense of a tail rotor, what are the rudder pedals connected to?
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Have Blue on February 17, 2006, 12:12:38 AM
I got to watch a V-22 take off after a friend's flight lesson at our local feild. (KBED)  Seeing it made it so much more real...
At an airshow, I saw an F-86, a (very cool) captured MiG-15, a C-5 and JATO C-130, and F-14 on ramp(that thing was so cool-and big!), I was climbing inside the intake of an F-15 before the pilot yelled at me ;D, and an E-2.  That was a fun airshow...  There was an SR-22 at humble little Minuteman Airfield.  That was very cool.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on February 17, 2006, 12:53:32 AM
Speaking of K-Max, I have a question for you fling-wing jocks,   Do the Kaman fly much different than standard helicopter?   In the absense of a tail rotor, what are the rudder pedals connected to?

The pedals tie in the main rotor-heads somehow. Again Roland would know more about this than I do because he's a Kamax mechanic. They tilt against eachother and that gives you a rotation around the nose somehow. But a pilot doesn't need to learn new controls from scratch. They still look the same on the inside. There are some diffences I heard pilots say. You just want to let the tail swing in the wind if you can, because if you try to keep your nose at a certain heading at all cost in a hover you run into somthing called cross-controlling or so where the two rotors will actually start touching.
The Kamax school is pretty expensive I heard. I am sure there are all kinds of little quorkes with it that "normal" helicopters don't have....

They look cool when you look down at them, huh? I am sure you see that, flying airattack and all....
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on February 17, 2006, 02:04:58 AM
The most amazing part of watching a KMax is the startup---I mean, when you watch the rotors begin to intermesh you swear there is no way the darn thing is going be able to keep from self destructing!

They had some smaller ones (I think--not sure)  in Vietnam but I never saw one close up until 2 years ago when I worked them on a fire in Williams Arizona.  Blew me away when I found out they are classified as Type 1 helitankers---they seem so small compared to a Crane, but I believe they carry an 800 gallon bucket.

Got a couple of question for 'Have Blue'--what's an SR-22, why were you climbing into an intake, and what did the F-15 jock say (if it's printable)?  :D :D :D
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Frank N. O. on February 17, 2006, 05:42:25 AM
Wow you guys have really seen many great planes  8)

I'd like to know how how small Have Blue is to be able to climb inside an F-15 intake, and btw an SR-22 is a Cirrus model if I remember correctly.

Frank
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Roland on February 17, 2006, 07:24:19 AM
To the K-Max:

The K-Max flies slightly different compared to a “conventional” helicopter, but this is the same with tandem rotor helos like the Chinook. The reasons for this are the TWO main rotors.

On the K-Max the pedals are connected to the rudder on the tail-boom. This is effective in forward flight only.

The pedals are further connected to the both intermeshing main rotor systems via a quite complex mixing unit within the flight control system. Only so much here: the input on the pedals let tilt the two rotor systems back and forward differently so the systems create different directions of thrust = turn. It also rises and lowers the angle of attack of both rotor systems to create different torque = turn.

Cool, huh? Took me two weeks at the training department at Kaman to understand this.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on February 17, 2006, 07:51:22 AM
Wow you guys have really seen many great planes  8)

I'd like to know how how small Have Blue is to be able to climb inside an F-15 intake, and btw an SR-22 is a Cirrus model if I remember correctly.

Frank

OHMYGOSH, I really am getting forgetful!!!!!     A Cirrus SR-22.    When I saw all the neat military stuff Have Blue was talking about, my pea brain was thinking an SR-22 was a earlier version of an SR-71 or something-----HAHAHAHAHA------Well DUH!  ??? ???
I can embarass myself quit well, no help needed.  :D
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 17, 2006, 06:39:12 PM
A-12 was the predecessor to the SR-71.  :) 

Is there an advantage to the K-max over a conventional helicopter?  Just from the looks of it, and the description of the rudder system in hovering flight, it seems really complicated.  KISS principle may have broken down.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on February 17, 2006, 08:30:25 PM
A-12 was the predecessor to the SR-71. :)

Is there an advantage to the K-max over a conventional helicopter? Just from the looks of it, and the description of the rudder system in hovering flight, it seems really complicated. KISS principle may have broken down.

Hmm... the A-12, I believe, was the predecessor to the B-2.  The U-2 spyplane was the SR-71's official predecessor (which was originally named the RS-71 until a dignitary reversed the letters during the rollout ceremony).
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Sleek-Jet on February 17, 2006, 08:50:33 PM
A-12 was the predecessor to the SR-71. :)

Is there an advantage to the K-max over a conventional helicopter? Just from the looks of it, and the description of the rudder system in hovering flight, it seems really complicated. KISS principle may have broken down.

Hmm... the A-12, I believe, was the predecessor to the B-2.  The U-2 spyplane was the SR-71's official predecessor (which was originally named the RS-71 until a dignitary reversed the letters during the rollout ceremony).

Uh no.... the A-12 was built for the CIA, and is a predecessor to the SR-71.  The A-12 was a single seat with a large camera mounted behind the pilot (like the U2), where the Electronics officer sits in the SR-71. 

Check out www.habu.org for alot of history and pics.  ;D
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on February 17, 2006, 09:07:20 PM
A-12 was the predecessor to the SR-71. :)

Is there an advantage to the K-max over a conventional helicopter? Just from the looks of it, and the description of the rudder system in hovering flight, it seems really complicated. KISS principle may have broken down.

Hmm... the A-12, I believe, was the predecessor to the B-2.  The U-2 spyplane was the SR-71's official predecessor (which was originally named the RS-71 until a dignitary reversed the letters during the rollout ceremony).

Uh no.... the A-12 was built for the CIA, and is a predecessor to the SR-71.  The A-12 was a single seat with a large camera mounted behind the pilot (like the U2), where the Electronics officer sits in the SR-71. 

Check out www.habu.org for alot of history and pics.  ;D

Ah, ok.  We are BOTH right on this one.  A-12 was the internal Lockheed designation for the RS-71 (aka SR-71) prototype, but the plane was never called that in service.  Nice link for the SR-71, by the way.  Also, you may not be aware of this, but the CIA versions of the SR-71 had the red striping on it.

What I was thinking about, and this is probably due to my working at McDonnell Douglas, now called The Boeing Company, in the Integrated Defense Systems group, was the A-12 Avenger program which was cancelled.  It is indeed the B-2 predecessor, and was based on a stealth version of the original "Flying Wing" which had both prop and jet versions long before there was technology to make it a viable aircraft.

For information on the A-12 Avenger, here is a link...

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/a-12.htm
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 17, 2006, 09:14:48 PM
Another good source for SR-71 info and stories is the book Sled Driver.  I forget the author now, but he was an SR-71 pilot.  I did a report on the SR-71 for Advanced Aerodynamics, and that book was my main source.  Really fascinating stuff.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on February 17, 2006, 09:20:49 PM
Another good source for SR-71 info and stories is the book Sled Driver. I forget the author now, but he was an SR-71 pilot. I did a report on the SR-71 for Advanced Aerodynamics, and that book was my main source. Really fascinating stuff.

I think you are referring to the author, and ex-SR-71 driver, Brian Shul.

I had the good fortune of also having attended an afternoon presentation here by one of Boeing's own, ex-USAF officers that flew the SR-71.  He had all sorts of really great info and photos, though he never put them in book form himself. 
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Frank N. O. on February 17, 2006, 09:25:08 PM
You might be thinking of the YF-12 that to my knowledge was a never-produced mach-3 interceptor that was a sibling of the SR-71 Blackbird or maybe the basis for the Blackbird, not sure. The 12 was slightly shorter than the Blackbird and from drawings I've seen then the smooth flared body was cut off abruptly around the cockpit, I think I read it was for storing missiles that were dropped and then ignited.
Another Mach-3 fighter that was never produced was the escort for the Valkyrie that however was much different and not related.

The U-2 however was the plane that the Blackbird replaced. But wasn't there a TR-1 version that came after? And now there's a rumour of a mix between the B-2 and the F-117 called TR-3 that's for the Navy. Reminds me of the F-19 Stealth Fighter made by a model-company, that even came in a computergame :D

Speaking of stealth, from what I heard then then the Blackbird was the first plane that showed the posibilities of stealth since appearently it's shape was harder than normal to see I guess.

I'm not too sure about the SR/RS though, I think I read somewhere that the SR does stand for something, but maybe it was made afterwards to cover up, who knows.

Edit: About the Sled Driver is this the link for the pilot's book you're referring too? http://www.sleddriver.com/

Frank
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on February 17, 2006, 09:37:48 PM
You might be thinking of the YF-12 that to my knowledge was a never-produced mach-3 interceptor that was a sibling of the SR-71 Blackbird or maybe the basis for the Blackbird, not sure. The 12 was slightly shorter than the Blackbird and from drawings I've seen then the smooth flared body was cut off abruptly around the cockpit, I think I read it was for storing missiles that were dropped and then ignited.
Another Mach-3 fighter that was never produced was the escort for the Valkyrie that however was much different and not related.

The U-2 however was the plane that the Blackbird replaced. But wasn't there a TR-1 version that came after? And now there's a rumour of a mix between the B-2 and the F-117 called TR-3 that's for the Navy. Reminds me of the F-19 Stealth Fighter made by a model-company, that even came in a computergame :D

Speaking of stealth, from what I heard then then the Blackbird was the first plane that showed the posibilities of stealth since appearently it's shape was harder than normal to see I guess.

I'm not too sure about the SR/RS though, I think I read somewhere that the SR does stand for something, but maybe it was made afterwards to cover up, who knows.

Frank


You are correct about the YF-12.  It never went operational either, but was a design prototype forerunner of the SR-71.  The RS/SR flip-flop was related to me by the ex-Blackbird pilot that gave the talk here at Boeing.

The RS designation was used for Recon aircraft by the USAF, and stood for "Reconnassance Supersonic".  When the Senator at the rollout for the first, production, SR-71 was speaking, he flip-flopped the RS and said SR.  Nobody wanted to correct him, including the USAF, since he had been instrumental in getting the program funded, so...  at least that was the story I was told.  I have no reason to disbelieve that since I know the way some things happen with certain things in the government :)

Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 17, 2006, 09:49:26 PM
That's the story I've read as well, regarding RS/SR. 

The A-12 was the test bed for all later models, including the YF-12 and SR-71.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Sleek-Jet on February 17, 2006, 09:58:07 PM
A-12 was the predecessor to the SR-71. :)

Is there an advantage to the K-max over a conventional helicopter? Just from the looks of it, and the description of the rudder system in hovering flight, it seems really complicated. KISS principle may have broken down.

Hmm... the A-12, I believe, was the predecessor to the B-2.  The U-2 spyplane was the SR-71's official predecessor (which was originally named the RS-71 until a dignitary reversed the letters during the rollout ceremony).

Uh no.... the A-12 was built for the CIA, and is a predecessor to the SR-71.  The A-12 was a single seat with a large camera mounted behind the pilot (like the U2), where the Electronics officer sits in the SR-71. 

Check out www.habu.org for alot of history and pics.  ;D

Ah, ok.  We are BOTH right on this one.  A-12 was the internal Lockheed designation for the RS-71 (aka SR-71) prototype, but the plane was never called that in service.  Nice link for the SR-71, by the way.  Also, you may not be aware of this, but the CIA versions of the SR-71 had the red striping on it.

What I was thinking about, and this is probably due to my working at McDonnell Douglas, now called The Boeing Company, in the Integrated Defense Systems group, was the A-12 Avenger program which was cancelled.  It is indeed the B-2 predecessor, and was based on a stealth version of the original "Flying Wing" which had both prop and jet versions long before there was technology to make it a viable aircraft.

For information on the A-12 Avenger, here is a link...

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/a-12.htm

The A-12 Blackbirds were operational.  The Blackbird sitting on the Interpid Air and Space museum in New York was an operational A-12. From what I've read, the Airforce did not like the CIA having it's own private air wing, so they took over the Blackbird program and made the change to a two man crew.  I'll have to find my copy of "Skunk Works" to get the exact sequence, but it was something along those lines.  The A-12 was also purely a photo recon. plane.  

Another tidbit on the SR-71... while the RS/SR switch has been atributed to a politician (I head it was LBJ), one of the missions of the blackbird was post nuclear recon after the first volley of attacks were completed.  The pilots were to call back to whomever was left and report on what was still standing, the second wave of missle attacks would then be targeted there.  Thus the "strategic" part of the SR designation.  
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on February 17, 2006, 11:13:41 PM
A-12 was the predecessor to the SR-71. :)

Is there an advantage to the K-max over a conventional helicopter? Just from the looks of it, and the description of the rudder system in hovering flight, it seems really complicated. KISS principle may have broken down.

Hmm... the A-12, I believe, was the predecessor to the B-2.  The U-2 spyplane was the SR-71's official predecessor (which was originally named the RS-71 until a dignitary reversed the letters during the rollout ceremony).

Uh no.... the A-12 was built for the CIA, and is a predecessor to the SR-71.  The A-12 was a single seat with a large camera mounted behind the pilot (like the U2), where the Electronics officer sits in the SR-71. 

Check out www.habu.org for alot of history and pics.  ;D

Ah, ok.  We are BOTH right on this one.  A-12 was the internal Lockheed designation for the RS-71 (aka SR-71) prototype, but the plane was never called that in service.  Nice link for the SR-71, by the way.  Also, you may not be aware of this, but the CIA versions of the SR-71 had the red striping on it.

What I was thinking about, and this is probably due to my working at McDonnell Douglas, now called The Boeing Company, in the Integrated Defense Systems group, was the A-12 Avenger program which was cancelled.  It is indeed the B-2 predecessor, and was based on a stealth version of the original "Flying Wing" which had both prop and jet versions long before there was technology to make it a viable aircraft.

For information on the A-12 Avenger, here is a link...

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/a-12.htm

The A-12 Blackbirds were operational.  The Blackbird sitting on the Interpid Air and Space museum in New York was an operational A-12. From what I've read, the Airforce did not like the CIA having it's own private air wing, so they took over the Blackbird program and made the change to a two man crew.  I'll have to find my copy of "Skunk Works" to get the exact sequence, but it was something along those lines.  The A-12 was also purely a photo recon. plane. 

Another tidbit on the SR-71... while the RS/SR switch has been atributed to a politician (I head it was LBJ), one of the missions of the blackbird was post nuclear recon after the first volley of attacks were completed.  The pilots were to call back to whomever was left and report on what was still standing, the second wave of missle attacks would then be targeted there.  Thus the "strategic" part of the SR designation.   

The YF-12A (the one you are referring to as the A-12... not the A-12 Avenger that I was referring to), had three built, and did not go operational.  One of the ones built crashed, and one of them went on display at the Intrepid Museum.  They were flown in testbed and demo capacity, but were not considered to be "operational", which is an official designation when an aircraft goes from EMD phase (engineering, manufacturing, design) and is cleared for production LRIP, then FRP usually today (Low Rate Initial Production and Full Rate Production once the line is establish).

The following website has a historical accounting of the YF-12A, including what happened to each of the three aircraft produced.  Interestingly, the first of the three was converted into an actual SR-71.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/fighter/yf12.htm
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Sleek-Jet on February 18, 2006, 12:12:32 AM
I think we are splitting hairs. ;D

As near as I can find, there were 18 A-12 Blackbirds or derivatives built.  3 were the YF-12 birds, with short chines,  large radome for radar and 2 crew.  2 were built for the D-21 drone program.  The remaining 13 were operational, though for a short time.  The A-12 was a slightly smaller airframe, with the chines being the most notable difference.  The SR-71 had much larger chines, and gave it the impression of being a snake.  The A-12 was essentially an airplane without a mission after we signed the no overflight treaty with the Russians. 

Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on February 18, 2006, 12:25:51 AM
A-12 was the predecessor to the SR-71.  :) 

Is there an advantage to the K-max over a conventional helicopter?  Just from the looks of it, and the description of the rudder system in hovering flight, it seems really complicated.  KISS principle may have broken down.

Aren't the both great? I love those planes. What an ipressive plane to stand next to....
I'll never forget the SR-71. Makes me wanna go out and build a model... ;D

re: KMAX:
The main advantage to not having a tail rotor is a Tim-the-tool-man-Taylor reason:
MORE POWER!!
Not having a tailrotor will direct all the available power to the main rotors (although I am sure some gets lost in those complicated gear boxes). The T/R can use up to 40% of the avilable power in a hover. That's why helos are (among other things) more efficient in forward flight and use less gas/power/and so on.
It also makes it more quiet (the T/R makes most of the helicopter noise)
So, efficient? "yes"
KISS? "no"
maintenance on these things? nightmare
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 18, 2006, 12:54:18 AM
maintenance on these things? nightmare

 :D  I bet.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Have Blue on February 18, 2006, 04:30:13 AM
The Cirrus is a beatiful plane. :)  The pilot said: "Hey kid, get outta there!"  I was 5'3" at the time. ;D
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 18, 2006, 04:44:16 AM
Has everyone seen the video of the guy that got sucked into the F-15? 
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on February 18, 2006, 05:22:34 PM
Has everyone seen the video of the guy that got sucked into the F-15?

No but I saw one of a sailor on the flight deck of a carrier who got sucked into an inlet on a carrier based bomber (can't think of designation).    Walked away from it OK except for some bruises and a little hearing loss, I believe.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 19, 2006, 06:10:37 AM
That's the one I was talking about, I guess.  Somehow got the F-14 and the F-15 mixed up.   :-[
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on February 19, 2006, 04:52:41 PM
I don't wann be one of those smart-@$$ you see so many of in the AOPA forum, but wasn't that an A-6 or an S-3 Viking in that video?

(just in case we use it in a strip, you guys know we have to be very accurate... ;))
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on February 19, 2006, 05:06:34 PM
Could have been.  It's been a while since I've seen it.  Google anyone?  5 points to the one who posts it first.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on February 19, 2006, 05:56:54 PM
It was an A-6 for sure, I'll bet an hours flight time on it, went in the port engine inlet and flamed it out.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on February 19, 2006, 11:27:42 PM
yeah, I think you're right.
Didn't his helmet come off and that's what flamed out (or broke otherwise) the engine?
And since it was spooling down and his buddies grabbed him he got away....
Pfew! What a story to tell your grandkids.... "stupid things I did when I was your age:"    ;D
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Frank N. O. on February 20, 2006, 01:17:21 AM
The K-Max, that's the ultra-thin one with three skiis right? Funny looking but strong as heck.

I think I saw the video of someone sucking into a carrier-jet on that horror-show with the kids aboard a old carrier that's haunted, the one with a girl sitting in a room where someone allegedly got killed and a IR camera showed a suddent warm spot behind her and her nose started bleeding, darn that was disgusting. The plane video was shown before they started their tests and that guy got sucked in like a rag-doll and it didn't look like a Tomcat I agree, a smaller low-wing plane with small intakes on the side. I prefer to see funny things about planes though, like the made-up gag with the guy in Hot Shots roasting hot-dogs on the exhuast :D (btw the plane itself was actually a real one although of course most flying scenes were done with models, it was a english Folland Gnat, formerly used by the Red Arrows as well).

One question: How can anyone survive going all the way thrue? There are tons of blades and other big parts in there. Note: I am glad that he survived though, as long as he still has some kind of a decent life.

Frank
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Have Blue on February 20, 2006, 01:58:12 AM
He didn't go all the way through, right?
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on February 20, 2006, 02:53:05 AM
no way!!!
his helmet did!!
and came out in little pieces...
Like I said, that's what blew the engine and it shut down. He got stuck in the intake and his buddies grabbed him to keep him rom going any further.
If it would have been a F-14 he would have gone through. But you'll never come out in one piece.

Igor Sikorsky went through the rotor blades once though unharmed!!!
Has anybody seen that video?
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Frank N. O. on February 20, 2006, 03:28:50 AM
Bingo! http://cvn76.com/videos/Sucked%20In%20Jet%20Engine.avi A-6 and he did survive as you can see at the end.

Btw I used altavista's videosearch not google which however is my normal search-util but they don't have a video/audio search function and when looking for videos and sounds from cars and planes then Altavista is a lot easier.

Frank
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: chuckar101 on February 20, 2006, 05:17:52 AM
cool thing I saw at work was two firfighting cranes come into ely in formation.  flew over and the whole place shook.  Mike you would of recognized them one wasthe crane we saw in Virgin Valley last season.  One broke thoug so he had to hang around for a few days.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on February 20, 2006, 05:09:22 PM
I think we are splitting hairs. ;D

As near as I can find, there were 18 A-12 Blackbirds or derivatives built. 3 were the YF-12 birds, with short chines, large radome for radar and 2 crew. 2 were built for the D-21 drone program. The remaining 13 were operational, though for a short time. The A-12 was a slightly smaller airframe, with the chines being the most notable difference. The SR-71 had much larger chines, and gave it the impression of being a snake. The A-12 was essentially an airplane without a mission after we signed the no overflight treaty with the Russians.



I concur... we are indeed splitting hairs :D  And I'm follically challenged as it is! :)

At any rate... awesome aircraft.  For that matter, so was the Navy A-12 flying wing that I was referring to.  It would have actually ended up having most of the same benefits of the B-2.  Those flying wings, including the ones developed in the 1950's and 1960's, had inherent stealth characteristics, and presented both a visual stealth, and radar reflectivity stealth that had them well ahead of their times.  While the flying wings of old would show up on radar more than the ones today do, they were still very hard to pick up on radar consistently.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: chuckar101 on February 21, 2006, 07:10:56 PM
There was a program on the History channel about the B-2 and its predecessors and it hit on the fact that even the first one with the propellars had stealthy characteristics.  It also mentioned that the first flying wings were notoriously difficult to fly. 
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on February 21, 2006, 07:24:59 PM
There was a program on the History channel about the B-2 and its predecessors and it hit on the fact that even the first one with the propellars had stealthy characteristics. It also mentioned that the first flying wings were notoriously difficult to fly.

I'll have to see if I can find that program on re-runs!  They always do a great job with their documentaries :)

Thanks!
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Witchblade on March 08, 2006, 01:03:58 AM
The most amazing plane I've seen in person is an F-117 Nighthawk. Merely because it's impossible to belive that thing actually generates lift and flies through an atmosphere. If it was a spaceship - no problem. But an airplane? Truly impressive.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on March 08, 2006, 05:59:09 AM
Ok guys.
I am surprised (and a little dissappointed) that nobody mentioned one of the coolest flying machines ever...
... the A-10 Warthog!

Not only will I never forget the time I saw one up and close but also the day I met an A-10 pilot. Those guys are a whole different breed of humans ! ! ! What a plane!
It's like somebody took the biggest machine gun they could find, and then built a plane around it.
Brings up the question: "What was first, the gun or the plane?"      he he he

Besides it being so ugly that its already good looking again... I like guns and I love everything that flies (except fixing Skymasters or any Beechraft) . . . it's the perfect combination ! !
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Frank N. O. on March 08, 2006, 06:13:53 AM
Hey Witchblade, I agree, those sharp angles also on the wings makes it seem incredble it can fly, even with fly-by-wire systems to keep it straight and level because as you said, it doesn't look like it can produce any life.

Mike, I think the A-10 looks fantastic too, even just as a flying machine and not a weapon, but I've never seen one in real life and that's the starting theme for the thread so.... :)

I would think a Firehawk and such would be a wild thing to see so feel free to post some pictures as well (I believe that's the one you fly right, or was that another one here?). Air Alpha in Denmark, stationed at Odense Airport that I used to live near and wherefrom I flew the Cardinal, has several Bell 222's both with skids and wheels and one of them was appearently an ex NYPD one, blue with yellow stripes, photo taken of it hover-taxiing at Odense Airport (EKOD) and I think the 222/230 is a good looking helicopter. especially with the wheel-pods. The 430 with it's massive multi-story engine-housing looks a bit less elegant though but looks aren't everything I guess, remember the variation on how helicopter's fly joke: They are so ugly the earth repels them :D

Frank
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: chuckar101 on March 08, 2006, 06:55:32 PM
Your right Mike the A-10 rules.  Whats cooler is when you actually get to see and hear one fire the gun.  Back in the CAP days my dad got us into a capstone where we got to see all the Air orce aircraft drop and shoot live ammunition.  The cool thing when th A-10 fires and you can't hear a single repeat it just sound like one drone.  One of the younger cadets thought the plane was farting if thats a better description.  Pretty cool though!!
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: FlyingBlind on March 08, 2006, 09:47:43 PM
Why does the A-10 Rock ? It has a Minigun the size of a Mazda MPV !

Id have to say...that the SPECTRE just kicks ass...its huge...its comfortable (has even seats with leather!) and the arsenal is huuumongous!!! (4 x Miniguns , 2 x 75mm cannon, and 1 x 150 mm. cannon - REMEMBER! The arsenal on the Spectre can be changed ! this is the Default build-up) it was...awesome...
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 08, 2006, 10:24:43 PM
Why does the A-10 Rock ? It has a Minigun the size of a Mazda MPV !

Id have to say...that the SPECTRE just kicks ass...its huge...its comfortable (has even seats with leather!) and the arsenal is huuumongous!!! (4 x Miniguns , 2 x 75mm cannon, and 1 x 150 mm. cannon - REMEMBER! The arsenal on the Spectre can be changed ! this is the Default build-up) it was...awesome...

It is indeed quite an aircraft!  The A-10 Thunderbolt has it's specialty, as does the SPECTRE and SPOOKY, both versions of the C-130 platform.  During Vietnam, the SPECTRE was used quite heavily.  The A-10, however, is designed specifically as a tank killer, with a 30mm cannon in it's nose, and two huge GE engines behind.  From the pilot's perspective, the A-10's high survivability, with a titanium "bathtub" around the pilot, affords a high degree of "aviator survival confidence".  The SPECTRE and SPOOKY are great at what they do too, just that their missions differ.  I've seen A-10's come back that looked like they had sustained damage so severe they had no logical reason to have been able to keep flying, yet they did.  If you have a tough tank or apc enclave you want to route out, the A-10 can get the job done fast, and deadly.  On the other hand, if you want orbital suppression fire, and LZ clearing, along with other tactical missions for special ops forces, then the SPECTRE can be your best buddy too.

Here's a link on the SPECTRE and SPOOKY: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ac-130.htm

And, here's a link on the A-10 Thunderbolt... aka the Warthog: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/a-10.htm
Title: from supression fire to fire supression . . .
Post by: Mike on March 08, 2006, 10:41:16 PM
I heard that they want to get the A-10s certified as airtankers someday. I am sure it'll take years before this will becomes reality and the government will sell them to civilian operators but if they do (or when they do)
. . .I might have to go back to stuck wing !!!

Can you imagine? Fighting fires with A-10s?? AWESOME !!! :o
Title: Re: from supression fire to fire supression . . .
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 08, 2006, 11:06:09 PM
I heard that they want to get the A-10s certified as airtankers someday. I am sure it'll take years before this will becomes reality and the government will sell them to civilian operators but if they do (or when they do)
. . .I might have to go back to stuck wing !!!

Can you imagine? Fighting fires with A-10s?? AWESOME !!! :o

I remember hearing similar rumors :)  Not sure how well that would work out in terms of the aerodynamics and load capacity, since the airframe, while tough, is still designed for tactical and not "cargo" work, which one really needs for aerial firefighting tankers.  I'd love to see what the schematics look like for that!  I guess we'd have to call it the A-10F "Firehog" :)  Hmmm... instead of the nose cannon it could have a firehose nozzel for pinpoint application.... come to think of it, that might just work!  Maybe "waterbombs" attached to the hardpoints?!  Possibilities there... :)

Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on March 09, 2006, 12:27:14 AM
I'd like to meet the guy that decided to put a Howitzer on an airplane.   :D
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on March 09, 2006, 01:53:14 AM
I would like to disagree with you there Ted.
Firefighting with planes (correct me if I am wrong fireflyr) is very much so tactical flying and not cargo. It's cargo to the drop, but for the drop itself, the "run" they call it, you need a plane that can get low and slow and is very maneuverable. And it looks just like a gun-run of an A-10. I think it's possibly a better plane than any other big tanker that's currently out there BECAUSE it was designed for gun running and getting really low. That's why the wings broke off on the C-130, it's designed to be a cargo plane and not a firefighter. And the other planes they have (except the SEATS) are almost all cargo planes or bombers (but high level bombers that is).

Put on an external tank underneath and get in there really low with the A-10 (so the slurry don't drift) like a SEAT but with more capacity, and you will have an excellent airtanker! ...at least in theory. . . in my little world. . .where I am god and everybody loves me
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 09, 2006, 04:24:20 AM
I would like to disagree with you there Ted.
Firefighting with planes (correct me if I am wrong fireflyr) is very much so tactical flying and not cargo. It's cargo to the drop, but for the drop itself, the "run" they call it, you need a plane that can get low and slow and is very maneuverable. And it looks just like a gun-run of an A-10. I think it's possibly a better plane than any other big tanker that's currently out there BECAUSE it was designed for gun running and getting really low. That's why the wings broke off on the C-130, it's designed to be a cargo plane and not a firefighter. And the other planes they have (except the SEATS) are almost all cargo planes or bombers (but high level bombers that is).

Put on an external tank underneath and get in there really low with the A-10 (so the slurry don't drift) like a SEAT but with more capacity, and you will have an excellent airtanker! ...at least in theory. . . in my little world. . .where I am god and everybody loves me

Mike,

Sorry if I stated what I did poorly.  What I meant was that the A-10 is not designed to haul large amounts of cargo/weight, like the kinds of weight were you drop the loads of water or fire retardant.  I agree it's a tactical flight maneuver... just curious how they would modify the A-10 to let it haul that much water/retardant, etc. :)

Hope this clarified my statement.

Bob
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on March 09, 2006, 05:05:21 AM
Oh, I see...

Do you know how much it can carry?
I was assuming they would put a tank on the bottom of the plane. Even if they can hold less than a P3 Orion for example, I am a firm believer that 800gal delivered precisely where you want them might be more effective than 2000gal or more "in the general area". Do you see what I am getting at? I think the A-10 might have the ability to delivery whatever she can way better than the big tankers we have now. We have found the SEATs to be very effective (with a good pilot) in Nevada.

The one thing I can't figure out is: They built the plane around a big-@$$ machine gun. If they take that out, will the plane stay together? Would they have to rebuild the airframe? Or would they leave it in and disable it and put in water instead of ammo??
Questions over questions... ???
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 09, 2006, 06:04:05 AM
Oh, I see...

Do you know how much it can carry?
I was assuming they would put a tank on the bottom of the plane. Even if they can hold less than a P3 Orion for example, I am a firm believer that 800gal delivered precisely where you want them might be more effective than 2000gal or more "in the general area". Do you see what I am getting at? I think the A-10 might have the ability to delivery whatever she can way better than the big tankers we have now. We have found the SEATs to be very effective (with a good pilot) in Nevada.

The one thing I can't figure out is: They built the plane around a big-@$$ machine gun. If they take that out, will the plane stay together? Would they have to rebuild the airframe? Or would they leave it in and disable it and put in water instead of ammo??
Questions over questions... ???

According to the hyperlink I posted, it looks like 16,000 lbs on the hardpoints under the wings, and additional weight on the underbelly itself...max takeoff weight is 51,000 lbs.  I'm not sure what it's basic empty weight is though.

The plane would stay together if they took the nose gun out.  They'd have to counterweight, and put a block plate in the nose, but that would be about it.  When they say they "built the plane around the gun", they mean they designed the plane to be a flying gun, with the dimensions, power, and speed needed to deploy against tanks.  The gun dimensions, firing rate, muzzle velocity, and ammunition needs were factors in determining the shape of the fuselage with refinements for the aerodynamics... but it's basically built without the idea of carrying any cargo of any kind, other than a survival pack in the ejection seat for the pilot, though a pilot can attach a "PE Pod" (personal effects pod), that will let him transport himself, and his belongings, in a bomb-like casing on the belly of the aircraft.  That is common on other fighter aircraft too.  Some branches of the service call them "P-Pods", "POPs", etc., with the nicknames having changed a little over time, but all meaning the same basic thing.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on March 09, 2006, 06:22:31 AM
Ok, so if you attach water tanks to the hard points under the wing, it would give you close to 2,000gal of slurry. WAY more than a SEAT could deliver. It could be an awesome thing...
Thanks for all the detailed info by the way!

Maybe I just want this to happen so bad because I think the Thunderbolt is such an awesome kick-@$$ plane !! ;D
(Chuck is that you?)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 09, 2006, 04:32:04 PM
Ok, so if you attach water tanks to the hard points under the wing, it would give you close to 2,000gal of slurry. WAY more than a SEAT could deliver. It could be an awesome thing...
Thanks for all the detailed info by the way!

Maybe I just want this to happen so bad because I think the Thunderbolt is such an awesome kick-@$$ plane !! ;D
(Chuck is that you?)

I was thinking you'd need greater capacity than that.  I guess I'm used to seeing C-130's and heavy-lift choppers used for firefighting that I didn't think there'd be sufficient capacity.  I stand corrected :)

Glad to be able to provide the added info :)

I wouldn't mind flying one of those A-10's myself!  I have a PowerPoint slideshow somewhere of some that came back from action all shot up from action in Afghanistan.  And the amazing thing is, they came in safe, and were repaired, and set back out!  One of the planes I saw had it's wings and tail pretty shot up, with half a tail just gone, and it made it back!   Pretty damn impressive!
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on March 09, 2006, 04:47:11 PM
 :o wow...

If you find the pictures, please post on or two in here.
I'd like to see that.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 09, 2006, 05:00:59 PM
:o wow...

If you find the pictures, please post on or two in here.
I'd like to see that.

You got it :) 
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 09, 2006, 05:32:36 PM
Some of the A-10 photos.... still haven't found the ones with the greatest damage, but this gives you a great idea about how tough that plane is!

These pictures are from 2003 in the fight against Iraq.

Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 09, 2006, 07:40:12 PM
Ok... now... here is something that is also ultra-cool...

Anyone for a super-secret "Blackstar" ? :)

Too bad it's destined for the museums at some point in the next 10 years or so.  I guess the CIA, NSA, NRO, and DIA will have to get those SR-71's out of mothballs again!

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/030606p1.xml

Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on March 09, 2006, 07:49:45 PM

WOAH !!!! :o  :o
That explains why these A-10 pilots live every day like it's their last!
They are intense people let me tell you. (watch out if you go party with them because they know how to party)

This is amazing!!
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 09, 2006, 08:18:50 PM
Indeed.... oh... and I have a picture from that same series of the pilot and the engine area.

Here you go!


This is one young lady you don't want to get on the bad side of!
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Sleek-Jet on March 09, 2006, 08:20:46 PM
Ok... now... here is something that is also ultra-cool...

Anyone for a super-secret "Blackstar" ? :)

Too bad it's destined for the museums at some point in the next 10 years or so.  I guess the CIA, NSA, NRO, and DIA will have to get those SR-71's out of mothballs again!

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/030606p1.xml



Hmmmmm... I remember watching a program on the Disovery channel a couple years ago about "black" aerospace programs.  They went over the U2, SR71, and the F117/B2 programs, and at the very end they showed pictures of the "Diamonds on a rope" contrails.  One author said he talked to Ben Rich in the early 90's about those photos and all Rich would say is "You don't have  a need to know about those".  Speculation has been some sort of hypersonic aircraft... or a space plane of some sort.  

Also (and because a good consipracy threory is just to good to pass up), it was speculated that the intelligence agencies had something already in place when the Blackbirds were retired.  It was always noted that they gave them up to easy.  
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 09, 2006, 08:29:52 PM
Ok... now... here is something that is also ultra-cool...

Anyone for a super-secret "Blackstar" ? :)

Too bad it's destined for the museums at some point in the next 10 years or so.  I guess the CIA, NSA, NRO, and DIA will have to get those SR-71's out of mothballs again!

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/030606p1.xml



Hmmmmm... I remember watching a program on the Disovery channel a couple years ago about "black" aerospace programs.  They went over the U2, SR71, and the F117/B2 programs, and at the very end they showed pictures of the "Diamonds on a rope" contrails.  One author said he talked to Ben Rich in the early 90's about those photos and all Rich would say is "You don't have  a need to know about those".  Speculation has been some sort of hypersonic aircraft... or a space plane of some sort.  

Also (and because a good consipracy threory is just to good to pass up), it was speculated that the intelligence agencies had something already in place when the Blackbirds were retired.  It was always noted that they gave them up to easy.  

You are correct in your conspiracy theory, actually.  Apparently this is the project that was possibly even operational, and allowed them to retire the SR-71's.  Naturally, since it was a classified program, and never acknowledged publicly, admitting that it's now cancelled is a problem.  How can you cancel something you never said you had in the first place, right?    Well... apparently this is the source of those contrails... or at least one of the "deep black" projects anyway.

No telling what else we have up there now.  I would imagine that they wouldn't have pulled the plug on this thing unless they had yet another replacement.  I seriously doubt they'll be pulling the SR-71's out of mothballs to any extent.   Modified U-2's have been flying lately, along with Scan-Eagles and other UAV's and UCAV's, which may well supplement most of those needs.  There would still be a need for a longer range immediate and unpredictably launched vehicle to assess global threats on the far reaches of the planet where we may not have troops or other resources deployed.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: FlyingBlind on March 09, 2006, 09:12:28 PM
Everytime i read about a secret space project concerning americans...it is ALWAYS :
a) SUPER CLASSIFIED (....)
b) SUPER HIGH-TECH (Me likes it ^^)

I may have just expressed myself very very wrong...but....yeah....i really messed up in this post  :-\
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on March 10, 2006, 05:45:50 PM
The article I read on tanking the A-10 (been awhile, can't remember the details--yeah,yeah, I know--CRS), talked about a centrally tanked airplane, I don't believe the wing hard points would work because of the possibility of a gate malfunction or the need for split loads.  I mean if they had 1,000 gal per side and one tank emptied and the other didn't, you'd have 6 tons hanging out there on one wing !!

Have a friend (that's amazing in itself) that used to fly Warthogs, he's got a couple of deactivated shells/bullets (whatever) and I'm here to tell ya, those suckers are big and with the rate of they fire put out I'd sure hate to be on the recieving end.

Back to the Firehog;  I've seen low level demonstrations and I think the airplane would make a perfect tanker.  Mike's exactly right about a medium size load (1-2000 gal) being extremely effective when delivered precisely on a fire from a low level, something the Guard Hercs cannot do for a variety of reasons which is why they are not effective fire fighters in all situations.  Guard pilots are very good and they are well trained but the altitude restrictions they have to adhere to are not as effective as low level attack---think pink mist!
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 10, 2006, 05:51:27 PM
The article I read on tanking the A-10 (been awhile, can't remember the details--yeah,yeah, I know--CRS), talked about a centrally tanked airplane, I don't believe the wing hard points would work because of the possibility of a gate malfunction or the need for split loads.  I mean if they had 1,000 gal per side and one tank emptied and the other didn't, you'd have 6 tons hanging out there on one wing !!

Have a friend (that's amazing in itself) that used to fly Warthogs, he's got a couple of deactivated shells/bullets (whatever) and I'm here to tell ya, those suckers are big and with the rate of they fire put out I'd sure hate to be on the recieving end.

Back to the Firehog;  I've seen low level demonstrations and I think the airplane would make a perfect tanker.  Mike's exactly right about a medium size load (1-2000 gal) being extremely effective when delivered precisely on a fire from a low level, something the Guard Hercs cannot do for a variety of reasons which is why they are not effective fire fighters in all situations.  Guard pilots are very good and they are well trained but the altitude restrictions they have to adhere to are not as effective as low level attack---think pink mist!

Careful with those deactived shells.  They may be the depleted uranium kind and should be stored in a lead container.  They use those for their armor piercing capacity.  30mm shells are BIG too, as you saw :)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on March 10, 2006, 06:07:53 PM
Thanks for the reminder Ted,

I hadn't thought about but surely, Ken has, although he's great to have along on a camping trip because he glows in the dark!

(there's your cue)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 10, 2006, 06:17:26 PM
Thanks for the reminder Ted,

I hadn't thought about but surely, Ken has, although he's great to have along on a camping trip because he glows in the dark!

(there's your cue)

 ;D  Well... as I'm fond of saying... "We've all been irradiated... but at least we're still active!"   ;D
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on March 10, 2006, 06:23:47 PM

Quote

 ;D Well... as I'm fond of saying... "We've all been irradiated... but at least we're still active!" ;D
Quote

HAHA ;D
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Frank N. O. on March 11, 2006, 05:16:57 AM
 :o that's a lot of holes in that thing! But they are designed to be able to handle that, and isn't the design actually a low newer than other jets like the Falcon, Eagle and Tomcat?

I also didn't really know if they had female fighter pilotes yet but I guess they have, well done indeed to keep cool in that situation, even if I heard the cockpit is lined with armoured plating.

About the gun, isn't it so high-powered that it can only fire short bursts or it'll melt from overheating (or something like that)? You can also see the nosewheel is offset, which I guess is for clearence from the gun.

And on a space subject, is there a bigger version of that picture, I love the Valkyrie and seeing something similar used for space is fantastic to see. I actually have some thing about spaceflying/shuttles I've thought about, could I ask that here (in a seperate thread of course).

The Firehog sounds interesting, but I still think the 747 supertanker I've seen is the most extreme firefighterplane I've seen.

Ok I hope I got around to replying to all the new posts.

Frank
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on March 11, 2006, 03:16:20 PM
[quote

I also didn't really know if they had female fighter pilotes yet but I guess they have, well done indeed to keep cool in that situation, even if I heard the cockpit is lined with armoured platin

The Firehog sounds interesting, but I still think the 747 supertanker I've seen is the most extreme firefighterplane I've seen.

Ok I hope I got around to replying to all the new posts.

Frank
Quote
The A-10 pilot is enclosed in a titanium tub.
You're right about the 47 being an extreme tanker but it's unproven and even if it works well it will be just one of many different tools needed to do the job.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on March 11, 2006, 07:45:52 PM
Personally I think the 747 might turn out to be a flop. With that much water on the fire you would have to clear the whole fire (all the resources) for one drop. And if that drop fails, it's gonna be a while until they make it back to the line. The drop would need to be scheduled way in advance, you'd have to pull all the other aircraft out of the area....I don't know if it's gonna work. The concept is neat but the logisitcs?!
Plus who is going to order up one of them and increase the cost of his fire by thousands of dollars and then justify later if it was really necessary to bring in this big machine?
Title: F-15
Post by: Mike on March 11, 2006, 07:51:14 PM
I was just watching the Discovery channel and they had F-15's on...

Did you guys ever hear about (or see it on TV) the story where a F-15 collided with an A-8 or A-4 or something in training and lost the entire right wing but flew home and landed?
He touched down with almost 300 kts to stay flying and the spray of fuel from an errupted tank on the right side blocked his view the pilot said, so he didn't notice he lost the entire wing otherwise he would have ejected. He was able to stabilize the plane at higher speeds and decided to fly it in. WOW!
I would have wanted to see the look on his face when he saw what he just flew in...
What an amazing plane! I had no idea. (wouldn't wanna try it for myself either though...)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on March 11, 2006, 09:19:44 PM
I've seen pictures of that incident.  Very amazing.   :o
Title: Re: F-15
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 13, 2006, 01:38:12 AM
I was just watching the Discovery channel and they had F-15's on...

Did you guys ever hear about (or see it on TV) the story where a F-15 collided with an A-8 or A-4 or something in training and lost the entire right wing but flew home and landed?
He touched down with almost 300 kts to stay flying and the spray of fuel from an errupted tank on the right side blocked his view the pilot said, so he didn't notice he lost the entire wing otherwise he would have ejected. He was able to stabilize the plane at higher speeds and decided to fly it in. WOW!
I would have wanted to see the look on his face when he saw what he just flew in...
What an amazing plane! I had no idea. (wouldn't wanna try it for myself either though...)

Yes indeed :)  In fact, because he held onto speed, he took advantage of the fact (perhaps unknowingly) that 70% of the lift an F-15 gets is from it's central body.  It utilizes the lift-body concept, which is why he was able to make it back.  That is one amazing bird!  I'll be sorry to see it go after the Raptor replaces it fully.  I hate to think it won't be flying anywhere in the U.S. arsenal.... though it's replacement is awesome.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 13, 2006, 01:43:04 AM
:o that's a lot of holes in that thing! But they are designed to be able to handle that, and isn't the design actually a low newer than other jets like the Falcon, Eagle and Tomcat?

I also didn't really know if they had female fighter pilotes yet but I guess they have, well done indeed to keep cool in that situation, even if I heard the cockpit is lined with armoured plating.

About the gun, isn't it so high-powered that it can only fire short bursts or it'll melt from overheating (or something like that)? You can also see the nosewheel is offset, which I guess is for clearence from the gun.

And on a space subject, is there a bigger version of that picture, I love the Valkyrie and seeing something similar used for space is fantastic to see. I actually have some thing about spaceflying/shuttles I've thought about, could I ask that here (in a seperate thread of course).

The Firehog sounds interesting, but I still think the 747 supertanker I've seen is the most extreme firefighterplane I've seen.

Ok I hope I got around to replying to all the new posts.

Frank
The gun does overheat if used in long bursts, but normally one doesn't need a long burst from it.  As noted earlier, if you've ever heard the gun fire, it sounds like an elephant breaking wind rather than a *bang*bang*bang*.  It's almost a single humming tone.

Sorry I don't have any bigger photos of that plane.  I'd love to see one myself! :)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Frank N. O. on March 13, 2006, 05:39:29 AM
I think I've heard the A-10 fire on a Discovery documentary and it is indeed extremely fast and no bang-bang sound!

So the Eagle has a lifting-body section, I didn't know that, I thought the Fulcrum and Flanker were first with that but maybe that's just because I haven't read that much about details on figherplanes due to lack of material. The liftingbody also explains how it could at all fly since a while wing missing would normally make that totally impossible wouldn't it? It would just roll or fall sideways down wouldn't it? Btw I think I actually saw the missing wing picture as well, yikes!

Regarding the 747 then it's computercontrolled with several small tanks and the upper deck has a logistics center so it's not just a simple tanker that can just give one uncontrolled drop and then it's useless. I can't remember the companyname but there were online videos which showed how it functioned. But I do know that firefighting requires a lot more than just the plane but also people on the ground, experts to direct all forces etc.

Frank
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on March 13, 2006, 05:57:42 AM
To Ted:

Thanks for the technical info. Lift-bodies are awesome! On the TV-show they made it look like even the engineers and designers were still surprised though that it made it home, lift-body or not...
But I am with you, it's gonna be sad to see the F-15 go. I still think it is one of the best fighters ever made.

To Frank:

Computer controlled or not, somebody still has to fly it there and some air-attack guy still has to tell the driver where he wants the drop (just like you said). There is always a big difference between an online video that's supposed to prove the concept and what's really happening out in the field. I am sticking with my suspicions about this project being too big to function right and ending up being a flop...
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on March 13, 2006, 03:25:12 PM
Frank,
 the company tanking a 47 is Evergreen Airlines from Oregon, I've talked at length with one of the project leaders (can't remember name) and even he agreed it's use on fires would be severly limited due to terrain considerations.   Like I said earlier, it will be just another tool to use and all tools don't work in the same situation.  If it works, it will be a welcome addition but it's not a tool to end all other tools.

Jim
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 13, 2006, 03:46:22 PM
To Ted:

Thanks for the technical info. Lift-bodies are awesome! On the TV-show they made it look like even the engineers and designers were still surprised though that it made it home, lift-body or not...
But I am with you, it's gonna be sad to see the F-15 go. I still think it is one of the best fighters ever made.

To Frank:

Computer controlled or not, somebody still has to fly it there and some air-attack guy still has to tell the driver where he wants the drop (just like you said). There is always a big difference between an online video that's supposed to prove the concept and what's really happening out in the field. I am sticking with my suspicions about this project being too big to function right and ending up being a flop...


Oh yes... engineers here were surprised indeed!  The post-flight analysis and computer simulations showed that it is indeed possible to fly the plane like that, but it is not an easy thing to do, nor recommended in the p.o.h.  ;D

He was one lucky pilot, and any other plane would have augered in without a doubt.

Also, while I'm not familiar with firefighting flying, based on what I know about aviation, and such, I am inclined to agree with you, Mike, about your opinion on the 747 tanker.   Seems to me that aircraft that strike a compromise between maneuverability and lifting capacity are the ones ideally suited.... though an A-10 FireHog could also be very interesting to see.

One other post on here noted that it looks like the nose gear is offset on the front of the A-10 due to the 30mm gun up front.  Just wanted to also say that that observation is correct.  One more reason why they say they "built the plane around the gun".


Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Have Blue on March 15, 2006, 02:32:07 AM
Just like the P-39, eh?
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: FlyingBlind on March 15, 2006, 07:37:54 PM
Indeed! they did build the plane around the gun actually...
I have to say that the Eurofighter will just blow us all away...i mean..missle locks would be useless ! why ? cause it moves so damn fast that the missles wont catch up!
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 15, 2006, 07:58:20 PM
Indeed! they did build the plane around the gun actually...
I have to say that the Eurofighter will just blow us all away...i mean..missle locks would be useless ! why ? cause it moves so damn fast that the missles wont catch up!

Yeah... but who needs missles when you have high energy weapons that travel at light speed :)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on March 15, 2006, 09:48:44 PM
I heard that scientists found another element that's far heavier and thicker
than the uranium the use in the A-10 bullets. It has twice the atomic weight of uranium.
Would make a good armor for armored vehicles and such:

It's called "governmentum"
Nothing gets through that one!!!
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: FlyingBlind on March 16, 2006, 02:28:02 PM
Except the TOW missle, it just carves through ANYTHING! Including NASA rocket armor (i do not know what metal it has)
Tow is basically a shoot to kill missle...it fires and if you get struck....your dead...
The second missle that would penetrate it would be the Javelin.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on March 16, 2006, 09:28:16 PM
no way!
I stand by it...NOTHING get's through "governmentum" !! ;D
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 16, 2006, 09:40:57 PM
no way!
I satnd by it...NOTHING get's through "governmentum" !! ;D

I'd have to agree with you on that one, Mike!  ;D

Other substances the government is good for inventing are:

Absurdium, red tape #5, red ink #2, and illogicum.

The government has also been the source for a number of new medical malaise's;

Taxemspendumitis, entitlementfossilistis, voterapathitis, and others.

Just remember.... "pro" is the opposite of "con".  therefore, Congress is the opposite of progress!

 ;D
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Have Blue on March 16, 2006, 11:07:40 PM
Watch it!  You might get arrested through that new "Government Knows Best Act!" :o
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on March 17, 2006, 02:08:30 AM
I guess we'll find out if big brother is really watching us pretty soon, huh?!
If you guys try to log in tomorrow and the website is gone, you will know what happened... ;)

Our FAA inspector is the one who told me about govermentum. I am sure he know all about it ;)
In return I showed him our FAA strip, he liked it!

He said we should use their other motto in a strip as well:
"We're here to help!
And don't forget, we're not happy until you're not happy!"
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on March 17, 2006, 03:36:29 AM
I'm actually surprised to see so many people familiar with "Governmentum"--It was developed under Class 1-A "need to know" secrecy at the Bovine Scatology Lab in Livermore Laboratory.   We, in the CIA, were told to kill anyone who even mentions the program---I'll have to ask all of you to travel to SFO next week and surrender your life!
Call me first so I can arrange for disposition of your bodies.   The number is BR549--ext 69.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: FlyingBlind on March 17, 2006, 11:55:37 PM
I mean! NOTHING penetrates Bushonemtumiinium! Its INPENETRABOL! ;D
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on March 21, 2006, 04:49:34 AM
Ok guys, back to the original theme of this thread:

Let's not forget about this one:
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on March 21, 2006, 04:00:20 PM
I don't know about the tilt rotors, do they the capacity to auto-rotate?   Doesnt appear they are capable of gliding in the fixed wing configuation as the landing would be rather messy with those prop/rotors flinging off in large pieces.     Looks waaay too far from the KISS principle for me to feel safe in one.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on March 21, 2006, 04:08:08 PM
On the OV-22 Osprey, at least, if you lose one engine, power is transfered from the good engine to both props.  And, if you lose the tilt ability, the props are designed to splinter like fiberglass, rather than shatter into shrapnel.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 21, 2006, 04:20:27 PM
On the OV-22 Osprey, at least, if you lose one engine, power is transfered from the good engine to both props.  And, if you lose the tilt ability, the props are designed to splinter like fiberglass, rather than shatter into shrapnel.

Took the words right out of my mouth :) 

One of the more amazing engineering feats of the MV-22, OV-22, and HV-22 (all variants of the Osprey), is the amazing machinery ballet that happens to fold the nacells and props for aircraft carrier stowage.  It's truly amazing that it can fold up the way it does, and that when unfolded, is strong enough to be functional.  I've seen it do it's thing in person a number of times, and it is definitely an amazing bird. 

Picking just one aircraft as the most amazing flying machine is tough with so many incredible machines out there :)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on March 21, 2006, 04:28:33 PM
Thanks Gulf, I know about the trans shafts but Murphy's law dictates that someday they will have bilateral engine failures, then what?

It's probably an excellent concept and I'm probably too cautious with my own butt----just looks over complicated.   If nothing else, I'll bet the maintenence costs are pretty high because of a lot of life-limited parts (more than a helicopter, I would imagine.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on March 21, 2006, 05:24:22 PM
Hey Ted, does the civilian version have all those "folding capabilities" as well?

I always thought that's what made it too complicated and like everybody else was just saying "less fail-safe". But if the prop-tilting would be the only thing it does without folding the wing sideways and folding the blades I think this could work as well as a helicopter (although it would take up a lot of space sitting on the ground)...
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 21, 2006, 05:31:28 PM
Hey Ted, does the civilian version have all those "folding capabilities" as well?

I always thought that's what made it too complicated and like everybody else was just saying "less fail-safe". But if the prop-tilting would be the only thing it does without folding the wing sideways and folding the blades I think this could work as well as a helicopter (although it would take up a lot of space sitting on the ground)...

All the military versions do allow for blade folding and nacell rotation for more compact storage, especially with aircraft carrier or other confined storage deployment needs.  The Bell Helicopter Company makes a civilian tilt rotor similar to the Osprey, but it does not do the blade folding or nacell rotation other than the tilting action.  There are plans for a civilian version of the military Osprey, but it too will likely not have the blade fold capacity.  It adds a lot of weight, and the maintenance of the system is highly complex.

As for if it performs as well as a chopper, yes.  In fact, it has heavy lift capacity that brings it up within the mid-range military cargo choppers.  It's also pretty darn fast :)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on March 21, 2006, 05:41:53 PM
well, I personally think that this concept does have a lot of future

we'll see what happens.
I heard you have to have an ATP fixed wing and an ATP helo rating to become a powered lift pilot and get a job on one fo those...
That's a pretty big investment! :o
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on March 21, 2006, 05:49:24 PM
well, I personally think that this concept does have a lot of future

we'll see what happens.
I heard you have to have an ATP fixed wing and an ATP helo rating to become a powered lift pilot and get a job on one fo those...
That's a pretty big investment! :o

That's why most of the ones flying them are military or ex-military where they got their training .... not in all cases, but in most.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on March 21, 2006, 08:43:36 PM
I think in the case of both engines failing, you come out of the sky.   :)  I'm sure the glide ratio isn't as good as a similarly sized "normal airplane", but it'll be better than a chopper.   ;)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on March 22, 2006, 02:38:04 AM
yeah...but isn't that the case with most planes (jets mainly)??

If both engines fail, it really wasn't your day, was it!?
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on March 22, 2006, 02:40:39 AM
No doubt.  Dead sticking a GV is not my idea of a fun time.   :D
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on March 22, 2006, 03:52:32 AM
AT least they'll glide----google the "Gimli Glider"

I remember when it happened, crew did a great job
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on March 22, 2006, 04:50:34 AM
Talk about pucker factor...
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Frank N. O. on March 22, 2006, 05:01:50 PM
I was thinking about those planes as well, and wondering how they're controller, control-wise, when in a hover but I agree, I think they are way too complicated for comfort. I can understand complex constructions for the space-shuttle but for a sub-orbital vehicle, aka normal flying machine then I think that's a bit costly.

Frank
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: madpilot44 on March 30, 2006, 02:50:38 AM
kind of late, but have any of you guys heard abour the flettner kolibri? (http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Rotary/flettner/HE6G1.htm) the pioneer of the K-max's rotor system. I guess germans were pretty advanced to their time.

if I remember correctly there were some kids in the runway at the time the gimli glider was coming down (it was a closed runway anyway, and there were car races that weekend in that runway). can you imagine going in your bike, watching back and seeing this big plane coming straight at you? talk about nightmare stuff...
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: spacer on June 03, 2006, 06:36:29 AM
Thunder Bird, the B17 based at the Lone Star air museum in Galveston. After the Convair belonging to our school (and the ones flying through my FBO, as well as the DC-6 cargo planes), I was simply amazed at how quiet and smooth the old bomber is. Nobody wore headgear, she just whispered her way to the active, and claimed her chunk o' sky.
I've serviced (allright... verrrry carefully and under eagle eyes) Airforce One, but that wasn't a big deal as I have a problem with authority anyway and just wanted to get back to the line shack until the bigwigs left.
My wife and I did get to go up in a Standard a few weeks ago. That was loads of fun.
Title: Marines...
Post by: Mike on June 14, 2006, 09:46:53 PM
Check out this helicopter!

Notice anything?
(sneaky, huh?!)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on June 14, 2006, 09:56:43 PM





and here the solution to the puzzle:

HA HA. I love it!!!   |:)\   semper fi !!
















Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on June 14, 2006, 10:00:55 PM

and here the solution to the puzzle:

HA HA. I love it!!!   |:)\   semper fi !!


Excellent!!  ;D  I'll have to complement the folks there next time I talk to one from that unit!  Great job indeed!

By the way... here's another one of interest... ahem  ;D
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on June 14, 2006, 10:22:48 PM
Ok... I admit the other post was a photoshop job putting the USS Reliant from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan atop the naval shipyards in Philadelphia.... it's been going around here as desktop wallpaper for a while and thought you'd get a kick out of it :)

However... here is a REAL amazing aircraft.  This is known as the "Boeing Bird of Prey", and yes, we do have a lot of Star Trek fans here in Boeing, as you can tell from that name   :)   This plane was a highly classified prototype until 2002 when it was officially unvieled.  This is now one of those you will probably see in the museums one day.  It did indeed fly, as one of the photos shows.

I do apologize in advance for the image quality.  I had to convert them to .GIF images as the upload filters don't allow .JPEG's, only .JPG's.

Enjoy!  |:)\
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Frank N. O. on June 15, 2006, 10:17:15 PM
B17, not bad indeed! I think that's more interesting than Air Force 1 but that's a personal opinion, and a B17 would probably also be easier to get close to in real life. Interesting knowledge about the engines, thanks :)

How did they ever get that paintjob thrue? Looks nice though, but pardon the dumb question, what kind of bird is it?

Nice Shipyard picture there, although such a interplanetary cruiser would never be able to fly in/out of the atmosphere due to horrible aerodynamics (let alone lack of control, thrust, structural integrity etc.) so it would have to be built in orbit, like they normally are in the series/movies anyway, but a pretty good work on the edit.

Love the Bird of Prey but it's incredible it can fly with the wings so far back, not to mention the lack of conventional stabilisers. Btw, why didn't you just renmae the file from .jpeg to .jpg instead of changing the format? To my knowledge it's the same format so just renaming the file extension would cause no problems.

Btw, I just saw a F-16 flying overhead while driving outside of Roskilde today! RDAF, or at least I hope it was lol.I heard the whine thrue the open window and knew that was neither turboprop or any windnoise from the cars nearby and it was way too close (read: low) to be a airliner and it wasn't, it flew straight over us so I could see it thrue my window, cool!

Frank
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on June 15, 2006, 11:12:33 PM
B17, not bad indeed! I think that's more interesting than Air Force 1 but that's a personal opinion, and a B17 would probably also be easier to get close to in real life. Interesting knowledge about the engines, thanks :)

How did they ever get that paintjob thrue? Looks nice though, but pardon the dumb question, what kind of bird is it?

Nice Shipyard picture there, although such a interplanetary cruiser would never be able to fly in/out of the atmosphere due to horrible aerodynamics (let alone lack of control, thrust, structural integrity etc.) so it would have to be built in orbit, like they normally are in the series/movies anyway, but a pretty good work on the edit.

Love the Bird of Prey but it's incredible it can fly with the wings so far back, not to mention the lack of conventional stabilisers. Btw, why didn't you just renmae the file from .jpeg to .jpg instead of changing the format? To my knowledge it's the same format so just renaming the file extension would cause no problems.

Btw, I just saw a F-16 flying overhead while driving outside of Roskilde today! RDAF, or at least I hope it was lol.I heard the whine thrue the open window and knew that was neither turboprop or any windnoise from the cars nearby and it was way too close (read: low) to be a airliner and it wasn't, it flew straight over us so I could see it thrue my window, cool!

Frank

Frank,

Thanks on the shipyard photo.  I can't take credit for it personally, but I think they did a pretty good job.  As for aerodynamics, the way the Starships work, they use gravity field manipulation, rather than aerodynamics, for flight, so they pretty much wouldn't need to worry since they would have shields up in the atmoshpere anyway.  The Starship Voyager was actually designed to make planetfall, and was shown doing so in that series too.  But you are correct in noting that the Constitution Class, and Regula Class (which is the class the USS Reliant belongs to), are constructed in space and not designed for landing on planetary surfaces.  Interestingly enough, the original concept for the Starship Enterprise did have a design plan that would have had the ship able to land, at least with the saucer section (aka Primary Hull), but that idea was dropped for the practical purposes of both lack of special effects budget, and pacing in the series, which actually led Gene Roddenberry to come up with the idea of simply "beaming up/down" as needed for brevity.  Now they are actually working on making such things a reality... though I'll not be the first to try it out! :)

In response to the .jpeg versus .jpg format, I have had some problems on occassion with the two formats being slightly different.  In fact, I did manage to save one .jpeg as a .jpg with no change in quality (using the 100% quality setting), and logically, if the two formats were identical, should have resulted in identical file sizes, just with different file extensions, but the .jpg version was a bigger file even though it was just a "save as" from the .jpeg image. 

As for how the Bird of Prey manages to fly, it's part lifting body, and part steerable exhaust, along with a mechanism that uses technology I'm not really at liberty to go into in any detail.... suffice to say it works ... and quite well!  :))

Oh, fyi, that chopper I believe is a CH-53.  Here's a shot of one above a lake in Afghanistan on patrol with our brave USMC fella's over there!
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: happylanding on June 16, 2006, 05:46:31 AM

and here the solution to the puzzle:

HA HA. I love it!!!   |:)\   semper fi !!


HAHA! that's for sure an artistical camouflage!!  :D

BTW, isn't it a Chinook, the helicopter?

I do not know if it could be useful, but it made me remember (let's say it's the kind of connections you could find solely in women's brain) of a book that has nothing to do with airplanes/heli but it's really worth a try if you ever are interested in special op for military ....the author is Mc Nab Andy, and the book is Bravo Two Zero. If it ever happens that you're looking for something interesting to read....he's a great writer.....
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Stef on June 16, 2006, 09:23:48 AM
Hahaha! Now we're talking about Constitution and Regula Class starships here as well! That's funny! :D Personally, my favourite Star Trek series is "Enterprise".

Anyway, Ted, I added *.jpeg" to the allowed file extensions. There was no real reason for it not to be in there... If anything of such a sort happens, tell me. It's usualsy easy to fix.

@ happy: No, I'm pretty sure it's not a Chinook!

@ Roland and/or Mike: That's funny, why's the tail fin of the helicopter (on the last image Ted posted) bent towards the left? What's the reason behind that?
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on June 16, 2006, 01:44:45 PM

and here the solution to the puzzle:

HA HA. I love it!!!   |:)\   semper fi !!


HAHA! that's for sure an artistical camouflage!!  :D

BTW, isn't it a Chinook, the helicopter?

I do not know if it could be useful, but it made me remember (let's say it's the kind of connections you could find solely in women's brain) of a book that has nothing to do with airplanes/heli but it's really worth a try if you ever are interested in special op for military ....the author is Mc Nab Andy, and the book is Bravo Two Zero. If it ever happens that you're looking for something interesting to read....he's a great writer.....

:)  I guarantee it's a Sikorski CH-53, happylanding :)  The Chinook is the chopper that has two large rotors and is the descendant of the "banana" chopper.  I am not yet at work, but can post a picture of a Chinook for you later today when I get to my office.  Primarily, the USMC flies the CH-53, and the CH-47 for most heavy lift.  I work with the USMC through Boeing... so I'm pretty familiar with what they are using :)

Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on June 16, 2006, 02:03:27 PM
Hahaha! Now we're talking about Constitution and Regula Class starships here as well! That's funny! :D Personally, my favourite Star Trek series is "Enterprise".

Anyway, Ted, I added *.jpeg" to the allowed file extensions. There was no real reason for it not to be in there... If anything of such a sort happens, tell me. It's usualsy easy to fix.

@ happy: No, I'm pretty sure it's not a Chinook!

@ Roland and/or Mike: That's funny, why's the tail fin of the helicopter (on the last image Ted posted) bent towards the left? What's the reason behind that?

I like all the Star Trek series, but the original, and the newest one, Enterprise, are my favorites too :)

Thanks for adding the .jpeg extension.  I'll see about putting up some higher quality versions of the images later today :)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on June 16, 2006, 04:40:05 PM
@ Roland and/or Mike: That's funny, why's the tail fin of the helicopter (on the last image Ted posted) bent towards the left? What's the reason behind that?

Yeah, it's a CH-53.
The tail is "bent" to offer somewhat of a vertical lift component in a hover (remember the graphs with the arrows of lift pointing in all kinds of directions?) on the tailrotor to help hold that big heavy tail up (which also gives you a wider CG range). Pretty smart, huh?!?
The T/R is now not only keeping the aircraft from spinning but also helping out with the lift....
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on June 16, 2006, 10:09:19 PM
This is the Chinook. 
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on June 16, 2006, 10:25:34 PM
Some better quality images of the Boeing Bird of Prey... enjoy!

Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on June 16, 2006, 10:27:41 PM
And some more BBOP  |:)\
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: happylanding on June 17, 2006, 11:52:25 PM
This is the Chinook. 

Ohhh, I was pretty sure, but it seems I have to take an aircraft and helicopter recognition course!  >:( :( :( :(
Or maybe it was because of the camouflage!?! ??? ??? ??? 
thanks for the pic, I'm quite sure I won't get mistaken another time!!
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: spacer on June 19, 2006, 02:38:15 AM
Many of the Starfleet ships were designed with detachable saucer sections, and the impulse (sublight) engines were mounted on these. In early years, they were a 'lifeboat' solution which could provide station keeping and short range propulsion as well as life support power far longer than the little lifepods. In later years (when SFX technology could handle it, as well as the producers) the saucer gained the ability to detach and re-join the rest of the ship (sometimes called the 'warp section' because that's where the big engines are).
The blueprints I used to have from the original series detail the huge landing gear, which can be seen as regularly spaced rectangles on the lower surface of the saucer. I believe the ability of this section to enter atmo was limited, and a one-time-only gig, but there were times, in novels, where the whole ship was piloted into the atmosphere.
It's been a while, but I used to design ships for the role playing game.
Geeks-R-Us, yep.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Turbomallard on June 19, 2006, 03:06:14 AM

The blueprints I used to have from the original series detail the huge landing gear, which can be seen as regularly spaced rectangles on the lower surface of the saucer.
Geeks-R-Us, yep.

Aha!  A geek imposter! You have been caught!

Nice try, my firend, but the landing gear you referred to were on the refit Enterprise seen in STTMP and beyond, not the original series and not in the Franz Joseph Booklet of General Plans, circa 1975 or the original drawings done for the original series by (pilot and vintage/antique plane buff) Matt Jeffries. Though emergency sepraration of the saucer was discussed in the original series and mentioned in the writer's guide, it was beyond the effects budget of the original series, the gear didn't appear until the 1979 version of the Enterprise.

Sooooo.... [SPOTLIGHT IN FACE ON] Who sent you? Why are you here? Who is trying to infiltrate the chicken coup? You're working for Klyde Morris, aren't you...? 8)

TM
(Genuine Geek who still has his original copy of the Booklet of General Plans, Star Fleet Technical Notebook... and unofficial blueprints of the original Enterprise bridge, Klingon D-7 Battlecruiser, Romulan Bird of Prey, a host of ofther Trek blueprints and... the Space 1999 Moonbase Alpha Technical Notebook...  ;D)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Frank N. O. on June 19, 2006, 10:55:46 AM
Well if I'm a geek or not I don't know but the saucer-section was actually used for an emergency-landing once, but it can easily be debated wether it was the intention or not, it was the Enterprise-D (my favourite) in the first NG movie, the one where Kirk dies that alegedly gave real-life death-threats to the writers, something I don't think is nice for a movie, and certainly not ST and Kirk that were about keeping peace.
The landing of the saucer-section was forced by the explosion of the main-ship that changed the course into the atmosphere and it made a belly-landing in the ground.

But there can be a lot of fun in Sci-fi series and some can be used in real life as well. Uhura's ear-piece was the inspiration for some of the people that made the first ear-piece for mobile-phones and the comunicator for the phone itself with the flip-lid. I even read that the needle-less injector had been made! I wonder how the heck that works though?

Pop-quiz, that does kind-of fit under the thread topic: Who was the only person to ever appear in any any ST series/movie playing themselves?

Frank
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Turbomallard on June 19, 2006, 12:57:07 PM


Pop-quiz, that does kind-of fit under the thread topic: Who was the only person to ever appear in any any ST series/movie playing themselves?

Frank

Stephen Hawking... I should read his book some day. Incredible man.

TM
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: SteepTurn on June 19, 2006, 01:54:03 PM
I cheer for the B17!!!!!!

I saw it at an airshow.  Thanks my ppl licence I could travel around the planes. So I was close to the B17 when he started the engines... ok, it took him about five minutes to make them work all four "smoothly".... with lots of smoke, "boom and bang"  |:)\
It was really amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |:)\ :) |:)\ :)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: spacer on June 19, 2006, 04:12:05 PM
Well if I'm a geek or not I don't know but the saucer-section was actually used for an emergency-landing once, but it can easily be debated wether it was the intention or not, it was the Enterprise-D (my favourite) in the first NG movie, the one where Kirk dies that alegedly gave real-life death-threats to the writers, something I don't think is nice for a movie, and certainly not ST and Kirk that were about keeping peace.
The landing of the saucer-section was forced by the explosion of the main-ship that changed the course into the atmosphere and it made a belly-landing in the ground.

But there can be a lot of fun in Sci-fi series and some can be used in real life as well. Uhura's ear-piece was the inspiration for some of the people that made the first ear-piece for mobile-phones and the comunicator for the phone itself with the flip-lid. I even read that the needle-less injector had been made! I wonder how the heck that works though?

Pop-quiz, that does kind-of fit under the thread topic: Who was the only person to ever appear in any any ST series/movie playing themselves?

Frank

The saucer section was detached during the pilot episode, flown about a bit, then reattached in flight.

While the original series didn't mention it, I specifically remember a book I had detailing the one-time-only ability for the saucer section to detach as a liferaft. This was perhaps enhanced by the time the movies came out.
It's been many moons, and maybe the book was part of the role-playing game (which had a few minor differences from some of the other material), but I thought it was a splendid idea.
Wannabe geek, pshaw. We used to take over a whole table in the cafeteria (Jr. High) to pore over BASIC code, though we never finished our version of Death Race 2000, we modified a few other games to suit us. Remember the old Star Trek game for the TRS-80? hehehe. Our dear school administration would have had a cow over some of the stuff we did. Nothing we did was really high-zoot, but we still had fun.
I mostly gave up the geek biz when I lost out to a rich kid with a C-64 at the science fair. My self-written statistics program couldn't hold a candle to the retail-box program he simply loaded with his *gasp* 5.25" floppy drive.
While I dabbled a bit here and there (I've been installing Linux on every computer I've owned since the mid '90s), I've pretty much stayed with aviation since then.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on June 20, 2006, 06:44:35 AM
I cheer for the B17!!!!!!

I saw it at an airshow.  Thanks my ppl licence I could travel around the planes. So I was close to the B17 when he started the engines... ok, it took him about five minutes to make them work all four "smoothly".... with lots of smoke, "boom and bang"  |:)\
It was really amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |:)\ :) |:)\ :)

It must have been amazing on a cold English morning, watching hundreds of them pharting and bellowing to life before they took off to join hundreds more bound for Nazi occupied Europe  |:)\
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Frank N. O. on June 22, 2006, 01:11:58 AM
Correct answer to the quiz, have a free complimentary virtual tribble :D
The on-topic part was that he was given a tour of the Enterprise sets and upon reaching the enigne-room with the warp-core he alegedly said: "I'm working on that" referring to making a real warp-drive :D Cool guy.

Velo: You lost in a science fair to a guy that just showed a store-bought program? How is that fair or have I misunderstood the idea/rules of the american school science fair, besides explaining it aren't you supposed to make it yourself? And my brother only had the normal tape-deck for his C64, and I'm not even sure how he loaded programs on the old ZX81 he had with tape to hold the plastic-keyboard cover in one piece.

Steep, sounds awesome hearing such a plane start up  |:)\

Frank
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: spacer on June 22, 2006, 02:54:41 AM
Frank: In the '80s (kinda like the Golden Age of computing for some of us), many of our teachers were completely clueless
as to the workings of those machines, including the judges at the science fair. They just went for the bling.
Ah well, I like airplanes better anyway, though I still dabble in bits.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: madpilot44 on July 08, 2006, 12:49:19 AM
hey Ted, don't the wings on the bird of prey tilt up? or was it another design I saw do that?... Seeing the pics, I remembered something I saw on the TV (I know, not too much of a trustworthy source of info, but still...) about a plane like that one and an animation in which the wings tilted upwards, but I don't really remember if it was that plane or something like that...

anyway, the other pic was of a MH-53 Pavelow III if I'm right. a special-ops version of the CH-53 and has the telltale refueling probe.

I'm not such a great fan of ST tough... I like Star Wars more  ;)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: spacer on July 11, 2006, 12:31:47 AM
The Bird-Of-Prey classes had positionable wings, which could be raised to allow for landings (otherwise they'd have had to make the gear legs longer).
I don't remember all the details, but that was part of it. The BOP ships were constructed by the Klingons, on license from the Romulans, who designed it, and the design was modified and up-sized to a frigate, which was built alongside the smaller ships.
The cloaking device was standard equipment, though I'd be perfectly happy with being able to cloak my tail number on occasion.  8)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on July 13, 2006, 09:03:19 PM
The Bird-Of-Prey classes had positionable wings, which could be raised to allow for landings (otherwise they'd have had to make the gear legs longer).
I don't remember all the details, but that was part of it. The BOP ships were constructed by the Klingons, on license from the Romulans, who designed it, and the design was modified and up-sized to a frigate, which was built alongside the smaller ships.
The cloaking device was standard equipment, though I'd be perfectly happy with being able to cloak my tail number on occasion.  8)

You are correct, velojym.  Though the Romulans had originally created a Bird of Prey, first seen in the original Star Trek series in the episode "Balance of Terror".  Mark Lenard, who later played Spock's father Sarek, played the Romulan Commander.  Later in the Star Trek original series, we come to learn that Romulans started using Klingon ship designs.  The episode "The Enterprise Incident" has Romulans using the Katanga D-7 Class Battlecruiser design of the Klingons.  One must presume that it was likely at this point that the Klingons also took from the Romulans the Bird of Prey design, and made their own modifications to come up with the Klingon Bird of Prey that we came to know well in the Star Trek movies.  The Klingon design for the Bird of Prey is the one with the movable wings.

Of course, the ship in the photos of the Boeing Bird of Prey was not akin to either of the ships above, as this was an aircraft, not a warp speed capable starship of any sort. 
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on July 13, 2006, 09:09:21 PM

The blueprints I used to have from the original series detail the huge landing gear, which can be seen as regularly spaced rectangles on the lower surface of the saucer.
Geeks-R-Us, yep.

Aha!  A geek imposter! You have been caught!

Nice try, my firend, but the landing gear you referred to were on the refit Enterprise seen in STTMP and beyond, not the original series and not in the Franz Joseph Booklet of General Plans, circa 1975 or the original drawings done for the original series by (pilot and vintage/antique plane buff) Matt Jeffries. Though emergency sepraration of the saucer was discussed in the original series and mentioned in the writer's guide, it was beyond the effects budget of the original series, the gear didn't appear until the 1979 version of the Enterprise.

Sooooo.... [SPOTLIGHT IN FACE ON] Who sent you? Why are you here? Who is trying to infiltrate the chicken coup? You're working for Klyde Morris, aren't you...? 8)

TM
(Genuine Geek who still has his original copy of the Booklet of General Plans, Star Fleet Technical Notebook... and unofficial blueprints of the original Enterprise bridge, Klingon D-7 Battlecruiser, Romulan Bird of Prey, a host of ofther Trek blueprints and... the Space 1999 Moonbase Alpha Technical Notebook...  ;D)

Hey!  I have all those books and blueprints too!  I also have the Star Fleet Medical Reference Manual, which was done in the same format as the Star Fleet Technical Reference Manual.  And, let's not forget, Mr. Scott's Guide To The Enterprise, and the Star Trek Compendium :)

May you live long and prosper!
(Yes... I DO have Captain Kirk's serial number memorized :)  )
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: happylanding on July 13, 2006, 10:04:56 PM
The Bird-Of-Prey classes had positionable wings, which could be raised to allow for landings (otherwise they'd have had to make the gear legs longer).
I don't remember all the details, but that was part of it. The BOP ships were constructed by the Klingons, on license from the Romulans, who designed it, and the design was modified and up-sized to a frigate, which was built alongside the smaller ships.
The cloaking device was standard equipment, though I'd be perfectly happy with being able to cloak my tail number on occasion.  8)

You are correct, velojym.  Though the Romulans had originally created a Bird of Prey, first seen in the original Star Trek series in the episode "Balance of Terror".  Mark Lenard, who later played Spock's father Sarek, played the Romulan Commander.  Later in the Star Trek original series, we come to learn that Romulans started using Klingon ship designs.  The episode "The Enterprise Incident" has Romulans using the Katanga D-7 Class Battlecruiser design of the Klingons.  One must presume that it was likely at this point that the Klingons also took from the Romulans the Bird of Prey design, and made their own modifications to come up with the Klingon Bird of Prey that we came to know well in the Star Trek movies.  The Klingon design for the Bird of Prey is the one with the movable wings.

Of course, the ship in the photos of the Boeing Bird of Prey was not akin to either of the ships above, as this was an aircraft, not a warp speed capable starship of any sort. 

Does anybody have a rating on these flying things?!? ??? :) :)
Nobody remembers of the great wonderful old scifi serie V, and V final battle?!?!?
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on July 13, 2006, 10:34:19 PM
The Bird-Of-Prey classes had positionable wings, which could be raised to allow for landings (otherwise they'd have had to make the gear legs longer).
I don't remember all the details, but that was part of it. The BOP ships were constructed by the Klingons, on license from the Romulans, who designed it, and the design was modified and up-sized to a frigate, which was built alongside the smaller ships.
The cloaking device was standard equipment, though I'd be perfectly happy with being able to cloak my tail number on occasion.  8)

You are correct, velojym.  Though the Romulans had originally created a Bird of Prey, first seen in the original Star Trek series in the episode "Balance of Terror".  Mark Lenard, who later played Spock's father Sarek, played the Romulan Commander.  Later in the Star Trek original series, we come to learn that Romulans started using Klingon ship designs.  The episode "The Enterprise Incident" has Romulans using the Katanga D-7 Class Battlecruiser design of the Klingons.  One must presume that it was likely at this point that the Klingons also took from the Romulans the Bird of Prey design, and made their own modifications to come up with the Klingon Bird of Prey that we came to know well in the Star Trek movies.  The Klingon design for the Bird of Prey is the one with the movable wings.

Of course, the ship in the photos of the Boeing Bird of Prey was not akin to either of the ships above, as this was an aircraft, not a warp speed capable starship of any sort. 

Does anybody have a rating on these flying things?!? ??? :) :)
Nobody remembers of the great wonderful old scifi serie V, and V final battle?!?!?

Absolutely I remember V and V Final Battle!  I remember seeing them eating the rats and mice the first time before you knew what they were like underneath their human-looking exterior!  Cool show!!  I remember it fondly in fact.  Robert Englund (aka Freddy Kruger) was actually a "good guy" alien in that one too :)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: happylanding on July 13, 2006, 10:47:10 PM

Absolutely I remember V and V Final Battle!  I remember seeing them eating the rats and mice the first time before you knew what they were like underneath their human-looking exterior!  Cool show!!  I remember it fondly in fact.  Robert Englund (aka Freddy Kruger) was actually a "good guy" alien in that one too :)

I adored it! And still do!
BTW, I was a great fan of Mike Donovan (my first "love" in life!!!  :D :D :D ) and Ham Tyler.
When the show came out in Switzerland I was around 4 yrs old. I remember I was so much addicted to it (and I ignore from what this addiction began, since I do not remember the first day I first saw it but my mom says it was a night I was unable to sleep and come downstairs to the lounge and they were watching it) even if I could not understand a lot the meaning (since it was not created for kids) that I obliged my parents to record them and used to watch in the afternoon of the day after. I never stopped watching it (I had the tapes and then new ones and now I've the DVDs in English) and last year I spent an entire weekend (something as 30 hrs in a row) to see everything from the beginning of the first series, to the last minute. Some time ago (say a year) I heard that Hollywood was trying to put the same cast together again and do a kind of sequel, with a new invasion. Do you know if it's just a urban/internet legend?!?

Later in life I had some problems believing that good Willy was the same face of Nightmare!
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on July 14, 2006, 03:26:42 AM
COME ON TED!!!  You really don't have all that stuff memorized, do you? :-\

I'm embarrassed to admit I actually attended a "Trekkie" convention one time---my wife was yelling "GET A LIFE!" before 10 minutes was up!--we left quickly and quietly.
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: happylanding on July 14, 2006, 09:25:07 AM
HAHAHA! That's a "should have been there scene"!! How does it happen that you ended up there if you are not crazy about StarTrek? ??? ??? it was just a coincidence or you were curious about it?
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on July 14, 2006, 03:19:58 PM
COME ON TED!!!  You really don't have all that stuff memorized, do you? :-\

I'm embarrassed to admit I actually attended a "Trekkie" convention one time---my wife was yelling "GET A LIFE!" before 10 minutes was up!--we left quickly and quietly.

You mean do I have it memorized that there are 432 Crewmembers aboard a standard Constitution Class Federation Starship, that Captain Kirk's serial number is SC937-0176CEC, or that Spock's parents are Amanda Grayson (her maiden name), and Ambassador Sarek (son of Skon and Solka), and that she (Amanda) was a school teacher on Earth prior to her marriage to Sarek?   Uhm... yes.... doesn't everybody know these things intuitively nowadays? 

I will proudly admit to being a Trekkie/Trekker.  In fact, I have indeed attended many a convention, and I credit Star Trek with being formative of whom and what I am now, with it's philosophy of IDIC, and the characters that were truly heroic, and worthy of emulating.  Dr. McCoy's humanity, Spock's intellect and logic, Kirks strength of command and exploration, Scotty's can-do magic working, and Chekov's ability to see things with a sense of playfulness, while also taking it seriously.  Yes, there are those that take things a bit far with not "moving out of their parent's basements", and William Shatner put it once, but just ask how many in NASA are fans, and what motivated them to go on to become what they are... including the Astronauts themselves!  Not a bad group to be associated with in my opinion :)




Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Ted_Stryker on July 14, 2006, 03:27:02 PM

Absolutely I remember V and V Final Battle!  I remember seeing them eating the rats and mice the first time before you knew what they were like underneath their human-looking exterior!  Cool show!!  I remember it fondly in fact.  Robert Englund (aka Freddy Kruger) was actually a "good guy" alien in that one too :)

I adored it! And still do!
BTW, I was a great fan of Mike Donovan (my first "love" in life!!!  :D :D :D ) and Ham Tyler.
When the show came out in Switzerland I was around 4 yrs old. I remember I was so much addicted to it (and I ignore from what this addiction began, since I do not remember the first day I first saw it but my mom says it was a night I was unable to sleep and come downstairs to the lounge and they were watching it) even if I could not understand a lot the meaning (since it was not created for kids) that I obliged my parents to record them and used to watch in the afternoon of the day after. I never stopped watching it (I had the tapes and then new ones and now I've the DVDs in English) and last year I spent an entire weekend (something as 30 hrs in a row) to see everything from the beginning of the first series, to the last minute. Some time ago (say a year) I heard that Hollywood was trying to put the same cast together again and do a kind of sequel, with a new invasion. Do you know if it's just a urban/internet legend?!?

Later in life I had some problems believing that good Willy was the same face of Nightmare!

I think I recall some sort of effort for a V remake/reunion, but it never came to pass unfortunately.  It would have been good to see!
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: tundra_flier on August 09, 2006, 06:18:31 AM
Ok, this is a tough one. 

I grew up near the Gernsey Wy Guard bases.  So Herky birds were almost daily fair.  One summer I watched a pair of B-1's refueling several times a week at 7am.  I watched a C-141 doing low level manuvering where I swore he'd clip a wing if he banked too hard.  Had a Hugie (sp?) fly by at eye level while hiking up the side of a small canyon.  Heard increadible double sonic booms that have since been revealed to have been from the SR-71 on one of their standard training routes.

Now I live in Fairbanks Alaska, which I'm beginning to realize has one of the most wonderful and unique airports in the world.  Here's some of the still flying planes that call PAFA home:
A Carvair (yes, I've seen it take off and land several times and even got a tour once.  Theres a placard above the windscreen that says "Flare High")
Several DC-4's and DC-6's
A DC-3/C-46
a few C-47 Commandos
A C-1 COD
A couple T-28's
A Beech Stagger Wing
A Cessna C195
More Piper cubs than you can shake a stick at.
Stearman PT-17

Transients seen on occasion:
Bamboo bomber
Stinson Reliant
AN-124 (got a great view from above the other day, I was departing from 1R in my 150, the AN124 is was on final for 19R)
Beech 18

And with Ft. Wainwright and Eielson Airforce Base so close by I've seen just about every active military plane imagainable.  Including all sorts of forien jobs, thanks to Cope Thunder, the twice annual multinational war games.  Someone had some F-4's flying around up here recently.  And a friend of mine actually got air to air photos of an F-22 near Elmondorf AFB recently. 

So the most amazing I've ever seen?  Hmmm...guess that would have to go to Rare Bear.  Just for the shear sound of her thundering by.  Got to see her at Reno in 99 and again in 03.  Awsome!

Phil
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on August 10, 2006, 04:24:07 PM
 ???C-1,   I had to google that one, don't believe I've ever seen one in real life. :-\
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: tundra_flier on August 10, 2006, 11:57:42 PM
Quote
???C-1,   I had to google that one, don't believe I've ever seen one in real life.

I really need to add a page on my website for "Planes I've Seen"  With photo's of each.  Unfortunately I didn't have my camera when I passed the AN124.  Doubly so since I saw about 20 Dall sheep that evening too.   :-\

Phil
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: fireflyr on August 11, 2006, 08:51:53 AM
Had an AN124 come into SBD when I was assigned to the tanker base there---they picked up a Crane for delivery to Europe (which crashed 2 weeks later on a fire mission)   :-\   That thing is HUGE!
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: tundra_flier on August 11, 2006, 05:11:12 PM
Several European car companies ship their latest greatest models up here on an AN124 for cold weather testing.  So we'll typically see a bunch of identical cars running around town with front and rear covers shortly after the 124 arrives.  Not sure what it was doing here in the summer.

Phil
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: spacer on August 20, 2006, 01:59:39 PM
The Bird-Of-Prey classes had positionable wings, which could be raised to allow for landings (otherwise they'd have had to make the gear legs longer).
I don't remember all the details, but that was part of it. The BOP ships were constructed by the Klingons, on license from the Romulans, who designed it, and the design was modified and up-sized to a frigate, which was built alongside the smaller ships.
The cloaking device was standard equipment, though I'd be perfectly happy with being able to cloak my tail number on occasion.  8)

You are correct, velojym.  Though the Romulans had originally created a Bird of Prey, first seen in the original Star Trek series in the episode "Balance of Terror".  Mark Lenard, who later played Spock's father Sarek, played the Romulan Commander.  Later in the Star Trek original series, we come to learn that Romulans started using Klingon ship designs.  The episode "The Enterprise Incident" has Romulans using the Katanga D-7 Class Battlecruiser design of the Klingons.  One must presume that it was likely at this point that the Klingons also took from the Romulans the Bird of Prey design, and made their own modifications to come up with the Klingon Bird of Prey that we came to know well in the Star Trek movies.  The Klingon design for the Bird of Prey is the one with the movable wings.

Of course, the ship in the photos of the Boeing Bird of Prey was not akin to either of the ships above, as this was an aircraft, not a warp speed capable starship of any sort. 

Does anybody have a rating on these flying things?!? ??? :) :)
Nobody remembers of the great wonderful old scifi serie V, and V final battle?!?!?

You could try Orbiter. I believe there's a large community coming up with vehicles to fly there.
http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/
Notably, they have a Firefly. "Ever sail in a Firefly... Wanna?"

http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=1271
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: spacer on August 21, 2006, 03:07:24 AM
I have to update my preference on this thread. I finally found a museum that caters to what I like.
Yeah, the big powerful warbirds are tres cool, but to me this is even better.
http://www.fairchild24.com/museum.htm
They have a museum with lots of stuff from Waco, Fairchild (Fairchildren?), Ryan, etc... If you look at #14 on the website
you'll see a designation that brings ol' Velo some warm fuzzies, the Waco JYM. The photo DOES NOT do it justice. It's pretty
stunning in 'person'. If I were to build something like a Fisher Celebrity, I'd take a bunch of styling ideas from this plane.
(http://www.fairchild24.com/wjym.jpg)
One of the other highlights is this lovely yet cantankerous wing thing:

(http://www.fairchild24.com/rapide.jpg)
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: switchtech on August 21, 2006, 04:28:43 AM
Since I can't decide, I'll use these four - all taken by me.

1) The STS-Enterprise - though it never flew in space.  This photo came from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California.  I think I took the shot in May 1985.  They had the Enterprise on site for a test fit for SLC-6 from which the Air Force planned to launch the shuttle.  That was before the Challenger blew up in January 1986.  Whether you're a fan of the shuttle or not, the vehicle is amazing.  I used a Kodak Disc Camera.

2) B1B Lancer - I took this photo at Kelly Air Force Base in San Antonio, TX (where I also took refuge underneath for some shade!).  I actually first saw this type at Vandenberg when they took her up for some record setting flights.  First I saw it doing some terrain following in the mountains of the South Base of Vandenberg.  I didn't know what it was, and down in the Valley I had no concept of its size.  Then they told us where it would overfly the base on its way to the test area over the Pacific so several dozens of us saw it fly over Minute Man Beach on July 4th, 1987.  This time I had a good visual on its size because of the T38 chase planes (I can't remember if it was one or two chase planes).  I wrote in my Journal they set 14 records that day.  A reference to this is at: http://www.afa.org/magazine/KittyHawkNew/1984_1993.asp
This picture came from a Pentax K-1000 35mm camera.

3) The SR71.  I've seen it on static display several times.  This photo is from Oshkosh Airventure 1997.  We were supposed to hear a sonic boom as it left the show, but the vehicle had fuel flow issues and they aborted.  According to Radio Oshkosh this year, they SR71 over flew Wittman Airport a bit over a week later and produced a boom for them then.  I was already home (San Antonio) by that time.  This picture was also with the Pentax K-1000 35mm camera.

4) The December 17, 1903 flyer hangs in the Smithsonian in Washington DC.  I took this picture Jun 11th, 1998 at the museum.  I used a panorama single use camera with Daylight Film (the only camera I had with me).  It took a lot of image work in ArcSoft PhotoStudio to get a usable image for this grouping.  Because the film was for daylight and I was indoors with the window behind the aircraft the actual image is horribly underexposed.

jbs
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: FB41 on September 08, 2006, 06:44:47 PM
Space Shuttle (I work at Kennedy Space Center) has to be the most unique. I've spent numerous hours in and around it.

Others include SR-71, NASA Super Guppy, Airbus Beluga, AV8A Harrier and any airplane I happen to piloting at the time.  ;D
Title: Re: What's the most amazing flying machine you've seen in person?
Post by: Mike on September 09, 2006, 12:38:29 AM
Wow Dude!  :o

Care to elaborate a little on the space shuttle???
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