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Roost Air Lounge => The Classroom => Topic started by: TheSoccerMom on November 17, 2007, 05:03:50 AM

Title: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: TheSoccerMom on November 17, 2007, 05:03:50 AM
I have a question:

Do you (as CFIs) instruct your students to read and use the Pilot / Controller Glossary?  Do you use it as a part of your active instructing?

Do you (all level of students receiving instruction, or BFRs) know what the P / C Glossary is?  Does your instructor use it as a part of your training?  And if so, do you feel you would understand the basics of ATC communication without it?

Thanks in advance.....  appreciate any input you have on this.

 8)

Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: airtac on November 17, 2007, 08:46:08 AM
Actually, I never considered it much until I gave a couple of BFRs and listened to some (old time) pilots struggling on the radio--I'm a believer now ::bow::
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: Mike on November 17, 2007, 06:37:35 PM
I have to be honest, mom.
I don't even know what that is. Is it a stuck wing thing?
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: TheSoccerMom on November 17, 2007, 08:51:53 PM
That's why I love ya, baby -- you ARE so honest!!  hee hee.

Naw, it's used to make sure radio communication is standardized, and I just have been wondering if it's NOT being used with new students.  I'm hearing all kinds of weird radio phrases, and the most recent occasion was with a new commercial pilot.  I was astounded, to be honest...  his radio work was incredibly bad.  It made me wonder how on earth he could have gotten through a checkride, talking like he did. 

It's published in the back of those combo FAR /AIM books.... 

Just wondering...  thanks Mike and Airtac!!   ::wave::
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on November 17, 2007, 09:28:52 PM
S-Mom, when I was instructing, I would tell my students to buy the FAR/AIM with the P/C Glossary in it, then put the book under their pillow at night with the P/C Glossary side nearest their head.  It would then be absorbed by their brains during the night by Osmosis, see?

Are you trying to say that this technique didn't work?   ::eek::
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: undatc on November 18, 2007, 03:29:28 AM
Ahh the PCG.  Its stuck in the back of the 7110.65 yet many atc students here barely know it exists.

I think if more pilots were to read this and learn this, it would resolve many communication issues between controllers and pilots in the system.  Many terms used by ATC can be unfamilar and being familiar with this and using correct phraseology will clear up the airwaves.

In general the things that cause controllers to work slow is not the job task, but actually saying the words. By making clear and concise read backs of clearances, and clear short requests, we can handle more takes and are able to put effort into getting you where you want to go. 
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: Frank N. O. on November 18, 2007, 11:10:11 AM
Very good post mom! Communication is very very important indeed. A clip from one Rod Machado's videos also showed a technique to help the problem und mentioned. Rod said (and I'm paraphrasing to the best of my memory): If you're flying and want to know if the weather up ahead is bad then instead of asking for the weather you can ask if any small planes were diverted due to weather, which the controller can just answer with a simple yes or no instead of a long description. This is especially useful if there are several other planes the controller needs to talk to (busy radio-talk).

I for one would take it as granted that as a pilot I'd need to make sure I understood and used the phrases that the controller uses to avoid any accidents and other negative incidents.

It's the perfect trifecta: Pilot-talk, tech-talk (mechanic) and controller-talk. All three are needed to make things work |:)\

Frank
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: PiperGirl on November 19, 2007, 04:59:40 PM
The Instructors here at our school do use it, esp. with beginning students (or pilots that need a refreshing. Since we aren't at a towered airport, students are checked pretty thoroughly before their first flight to a towered airport (although, I'm sure that some of our local controllers would swear otherwise ;D sometimes)
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: Mike on November 19, 2007, 05:27:55 PM
It's a little though for helicopters to fit in this format I am sure.
Since we always land in "non-movement areas" and sometimes on pads that aren't even part of the airport property, parking lots, and so on....
I always try to be inventive to request my special needs and still sound like it's part of protocol.
 ;)
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: Baradium on November 19, 2007, 09:47:55 PM
I've also been amazed at what people can get by without knowing.   Not only Commercial pilots, I've seen people with ATPs who didn't know what some fairly normal phrases meant.

As an additional source, the pilot/controller glossary is also included in the binder for Jepp charts.
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: TheSoccerMom on November 29, 2007, 05:28:33 AM
Thanks for all the replies, and information.   ::bow::

I was wondering...  after running into a new (2006 vintage) commercial pilot who used more non-standard radio phraseology than I would have even thought possible!  It was AMAZING.  And NOT in a good way.    ::complaining:

 8)

 
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: YawningMan on December 19, 2007, 11:25:56 PM
I'll keep this in mind, as I intend to be a 2008 vintage pilot. I'm gonna hate myself for going into debt, but I'm sick of saying, "Some day I'll be a pilot."
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: airtac on December 20, 2007, 04:14:45 PM
I'll keep this in mind, as I intend to be a 2008 vintage pilot. I'm gonna hate myself for going into debt, but I'm sick of saying, "Some day I'll be a pilot."

RIGHT ON---GO GET'EM |:)\
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: FlyboyGil on December 20, 2007, 05:13:36 PM
I'll keep this in mind, as I intend to be a 2008 vintage pilot. I'm gonna hate myself for going into debt, but I'm sick of saying, "Some day I'll be a pilot."

THAT'S RIGHT DOG!!!! You won't regret that debt you get into. Getting into debt when I started flying, was worth it!!!! I don't regret it at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I got that piece of paper which says I can fly planes!!!!!!!!!! And when you do get that paper (or plastic) it'll be beer dousing and strippers!!!!!1 ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking:: ::drinking::
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: leiafee on December 20, 2007, 07:09:03 PM
UKside we have a tome known as CAP413 to learn the r/t from. 

And a written exam.

And a practical exam with a "Pretend" radio and an imaginary route through imaginary airspace and your examiner pretending to be assorted imaginary controllers.
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: TheSoccerMom on December 22, 2007, 06:56:48 AM
That's interesting, about the "pretend" radio and controllers.  I appreciate your post.  I was lucky to have an initial flight instructor who understood how broke I was, and I spent many, many hours in the parked airplane, on the ramp, all tied down.  I practiced checklists, and radio communication, and all the various things you can simulate for FREE.  It was a huge help.

Fast forward....  In a lot of the fire training we do with new people, we use "simulations".  They're exercises that start wtih "fake" fires and then work their way up to incredibly complex fires, bit by bit.  Many "actors" are scattered out in the forest, all calling in and demanding that airplanes respond.  Radios are congested, and broken, and garbled.  People "get lost" and want us to help find them.  "Helicopters" and "airtankers" all come hurtling into our airspace, all walking over each other (to add to the stress level for the poor FNG).  They're incredibly realistic, and the guys who get the benefit of the "sims" do a much, much better job when we hit "the real world" a few months later.

So, I have come to really appreciate the value of that type of training.  If it's done well, it's a huge help.   ::bow::

Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: Louis on January 27, 2008, 04:06:59 AM
On the Canadian side you have to get a radio certificate prior to your first solo. There's a short written exam, but I'd say it does not focus as much on phraseology as it could.

There's this document to prepare for the exam: RIC-21 Study Guide for the Radiotelephone Operator's Restricted Certificate (Aeronautical) (http://www.ic.gc.ca/epic/site/smt-gst.nsf/vwapj/ric21.pdf/$FILE/ric21.pdf)

Page 26 does contain "Procedural Words and Phrases" which a pilot is expected to know.

Goodbye,

Louis
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: TheSoccerMom on January 27, 2008, 11:03:29 PM
Thanks, Louis.  I appreciate the information. 

I'm still hearing more frequent non-standard terms over the air....  it just makes me wonder why the CFIs flying with these new people are not FIXING this!!!   ::banghead::

 8)
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: airtac on January 28, 2008, 01:31:02 AM
Thanks, Louis.  I appreciate the information. 

I'm still hearing more frequent non-standard terms over the air....  it just makes me wonder why the CFIs flying with these new people are not FIXING this!!!   ::banghead::

 8)
Ah my little frustrated fuchsia,
I believe the answer to that question is that most CFI's can't teach what they weren't taught ::rambo::
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: G-man on January 28, 2008, 02:00:48 AM
Ah my little frustrated fuchsia,

This is why I love coming to this site----daddy airtac's oneliners.. ::rofl:: ::rofl:: ::whistle:: ::whistle::
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: TheSoccerMom on January 28, 2008, 07:19:15 AM
Me too!!!!!!!!!!!!!    ::bow::   ::bow::
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: Frank N. O. on January 28, 2008, 08:49:30 AM
Me three!!

Frank

P.S. Thanks for the PM Jim ::wave::
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: Oddball on January 28, 2008, 01:16:16 PM
AHH the banter  ::rofl::
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: airtac on January 28, 2008, 03:34:41 PM
Me three!!

Frank

P.S. Thanks for the PM Jim ::wave::
You are welcome--friend to friend ::wave::
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: Skid Kid on February 19, 2008, 04:33:09 AM
My CFI didn't tell me squat about pilot/controller glossary, I had to stumble upon it myself.  ::loony::
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: gibbo_335 on February 20, 2008, 10:48:44 PM
I saw the other day that someone has written a book called "25 Things My Instructor Didn't Tell Me" I think the members of this forum could add another 25 EACH!!!  :D  >:D
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: Oddball on February 21, 2008, 08:26:23 AM
aye number one: whats the big fan thingy at the front lol
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: leiafee on February 21, 2008, 07:21:53 PM
I saw the other day that someone has written a book called "25 Things My Instructor Didn't Tell Me" I think the members of this forum could add another 25 EACH!!!  :D  >:D

I had a rather acerbic instructor for a lot of my training -- 25 thins he did tell me might be more fun...

Starting with...

"Stop doing that to the engine, it's the only one we've got and if you break it we'll be stuck up here all night."
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: airtac on February 21, 2008, 07:37:25 PM
"BE UP HERE ALL NIGHT"  ::rofl::
I like that! |:)\
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on February 22, 2008, 06:47:11 AM
Quote
"Stop doing that to the engine, it's the only one we've got and if you break it we'll be stuck up here all night."

Ah, yes.  Gotta love that British Humor!  Hehe.
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: chuckar101 on May 15, 2008, 06:04:55 AM
Hey there soccermom, have flown around the stockton area yet.  Now thats fun, not only do these guys not know radio terminology, they don't understand english either.  The best is when you get one of these students in a baron doing approaches.  You just can't get a woed in.  And the instructors on some of these aircraft are just as bad. ::banghead:: ::banghead::  The best is when I go into work and the students are talking their native language instead of english.  The they ask why I get frustrated with them.  Ahh the joys of teaching international students
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on May 15, 2008, 06:38:29 AM
Hey there soccermom, have flown around the stockton area yet.  Now thats fun, not only do these guys not know radio terminology, they don't understand english either.  The best is when you get one of these students in a baron doing approaches.  You just can't get a woed in.  And the instructors on some of these aircraft are just as bad. ::banghead:: ::banghead::  The best is when I go into work and the students are talking their native language instead of english.  The they ask why I get frustrated with them.  Ahh the joys of teaching international students

Not only have I done Stockton, I have also flown in and out of Bakersfield and Napa CA, which are home to a couple of big flight schools that cater to the "English as Second Language" students and instructors. ::eek:: ::unbelieveable::  My new home field in SoCal has yet another flight school that does the same, so I am going to have to keep my head on a swivel and one ear open attempting to decipher some badly broken english whilst getting comfortable in the new operation!

Don't bother getting frustrated with them, Chuckar.  Just keep yer head low, get in, and get out without being hit by somebody!  Good luck to ya!   |:)\
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: chuckar101 on May 15, 2008, 03:35:11 PM
luckily I'm done with that part of the career.  Now I just go mess with them in the chieftan when I have an amflight trainee. 
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: G-man on May 15, 2008, 03:45:07 PM
Flew the Napa area for 8 years dealing with JAL. The worst place in the country now--especially for helicopters is KTIX due to the helicopter school there. It took me 17 minutes ones from my first call to getting airborne. The tower (two years ago anyway) seemed in capable of dealing with more than one helicopter at a time.
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: TheSoccerMom on May 15, 2008, 08:39:15 PM
Mmm-mm, such fun....  it's been a long time since I was in Stockton, but the worst survey job I've had in the last 5 years was right off the end of LAX.....  it's hard enough to keep track of all the traffic when you CAN understand everybody.....    ::eek::

I guess it's everywhere....  just in varying degrees.  A guy came through here the other day and he was lacking in some of the most basic private, even student pilot, knowledge.  The guys who work here all had their jaws hanging open.   ::loony::  Fortunately, they took him under their wing, so to speak, and helped him out, but it was pretty bad. 

And hey, G-Man, I bet it took them 17 minutes to call you back....  because it was YOU!    :-*   :D    ;)

 ;D
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: chuckar101 on May 16, 2008, 03:04:03 AM
I hate socal myself. Always fly IFR down there and even thats a joke most of the time.
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: Artoo on March 27, 2010, 03:20:47 AM
Hey mom, I found it!  Wow! Look at all this information!  I've always desired to be proficient on the radio, and I definitely prefer towered airports because I always sound like a jackass making my radio calls on the CTAF - "*click* Brownwood traffic, uh *click* . . . *click* 1LA , wait Warrior 1LA making left, wait, right closed traffic *click* . . . *click* Brownwood . . . shit *click* shit!"   So much easier when you have people telling you what to do.  But they don't have my favorite term in here "TALLY!" or if I'm in a really good mood "TALLY-HO!"
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: YawningMan on April 16, 2010, 02:47:08 AM
Brownwood!? As in Brownwood, TX? I was born there, and still consider it my second (now third?) home. There are a group of them from that airport that like to come to the Abilene Big Country Airfests. I volunteered there for several years before I moved to east Texas.
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: Artoo on April 16, 2010, 03:56:45 PM
Yeah, BWD was my first Solo XC destination from ABI.  My Texas heritage has strong ties to Brownwood, my Granddad, Great Uncle and Aunt, and Great Grandparents are buried in Greenleaf Cemetery.  I lived in Tyler for a year and half after college, and I learned that I much prefer seeing the horizon to seeing trees.  I need to move west of the Pecos, the Hill Country, the Valley, and the Coast so I can try out the rest of the state's diverse environs.  God Bless Texas!  What part of East Texas are you from YawningMan?
Title: Re: A Question for you Current CFIs, AND Active Students (PPL, CPL, Inst., etc.)
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on April 18, 2010, 06:23:30 AM
Hey mom, I found it!  Wow! Look at all this information!  I've always desired to be proficient on the radio, and I definitely prefer towered airports because I always sound like a jackass making my radio calls on the CTAF - "*click* Brownwood traffic, uh *click* . . . *click* 1LA , wait Warrior 1LA making left, wait, right closed traffic *click* . . . *click* Brownwood . . . shit *click* shit!"   So much easier when you have people telling you what to do.  But they don't have my favorite term in here "TALLY!" or if I'm in a really good mood "TALLY-HO!"

Once you get that coveted airline job, you can make cabin announcements in a similar vein (giggity).   ::silly:: ::drinking:: ::whistle::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0anaCNDvGo

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