From reading the article, they were doing an engine runup...
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Frank N. O. on November 16, 2007, 03:00:48 PM
I already saw this article earlier on Racerplanet.com where Chris the australian Concorde-simmer posted it, also saying that this is the second A340-fuselage ruined in one week.
My best wishes for the fast and full recovery of the injured people and then that the cause to the accident is found and hopefully prevented from happening again.
Frank
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on November 16, 2007, 07:18:52 PM
::eek:: Does Airbus not bother putting chocks under the wheels before performing engine runups?!?!?! ::unbelieveable:: It seems so simple... ::banghead::
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: BrianGMFS on November 17, 2007, 02:14:49 AM
WELLL, I've never seen the guys next door at Pratt & Whitney use chocks on runups, they do however use an unobstructed taxiway so if the brakes fail they have some room to stop.
Now if they could have remembered that one time not to leave an entry carpet on the wing of a Beechjet during a full power engine run, that would be a great help. We heard the bang all the way across the airport when the left engine ingested the carpet at 100% power, started to shed parts and then fragged the aft fuselage and the other engine ::eek:: I heard something about a six figure repair bill. Then there was the guy three years ago at my airport who forgot to use the little landing gear handle on his bosses Socata TBM-700.... That plane left on a truck.
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: TheSoccerMom on November 17, 2007, 03:53:48 AM
Allo Brian, you bring up a good point.. I don't know of anyone who uses chocks in doing runups.. none of my mechanic buddies here do. But I am not familiar with the airline end of the universe, so am not sure what would pass as standard on heavy aircraft.
Bummer about the ingested carpet! It doesn't take much. Personally, I hate when the line people run out with such speed, and flop that red rug down on the tarmac. It's just another foreign item to suck into a prop. But, "normal" pax (in the world of charter and shiny shoes, anyway) seem to love that crap.....
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: airtac on November 17, 2007, 08:54:47 AM
Then there was the guy three years ago at my airport who forgot to use the little landing gear handle on his bosses Socata TBM-700.... That plane left on a truck.
Oh, he used that little handle alright--when he brought the gear UP--- ::whistle::
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on November 27, 2007, 04:14:48 AM
A friend of mine emailed me some more detailed pics of this "mishap" if you can call it that.
Brace yourselves, friends... It's not a pretty sight.
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on November 27, 2007, 04:18:20 AM
More Etihad A340 pics...
This airplane is a total loss, and it never left the ground! If you look at this first pic, you can see just how fast it was going when it impacted the barrier wall... marks were left by both left engines.
Such a pity... <shaking head>
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: PiperGirl on November 27, 2007, 01:37:14 PM
Ditto! That should effectively destroy any speculation about that frame's existance.
Any info on what speed it hit the barrier at?
Frank
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Baradium on November 29, 2007, 10:15:01 AM
Computer malfunction?
IIRC even the brakes are computer controlled on those things... so if a computer locked up maybe the engines were stuck powered up and then they lost brakes?
Pure conjecture, but ouch either way...
The articles' pictures didn't look really all that bad... with those it's amazing that the crew made it out.
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Fabo on November 29, 2007, 01:35:02 PM
I rest surprised nobody posted the official report:
Quote
FROM : AIRBUS FLIGHT SAFETY DEPARTMENT TOULOUSE SUBJECT: A340-600 - MSN 856 - ACCIDENT IN PRODUCTION OUR REF.: F-WWCJ AIT 2 DATED 20th OF NOVEMBER 2007 PREVIOUS REF: F-WWCJ AIT 1 DATED 16th OF NOVEMBER 2007
THIS AIT IS AN UPDATE OF PREVIOUS AIT N°1 CONCERNING THE A340-600 PRODUCTION AIRCRAFT MSN 856 INVOLVED IN AN ACCIDENT IN AIRBUS PRODUCTION FACILITIES IN TOULOUSE ON THE 15TH NOVEMBER 2007 AT 17:00 LOCAL TIME.
THE FOLLOWING IS THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS ACCORDING TO THE RECORDERS, WHICH HAS BEEN APPROVED FOR RELEASE BY THE FRENCH INVESTIGATION AUTHORITIES (BEA).
FOR ABOUT 3 MINUTES BEFORE THE END OF THE EVENT, ALL FOUR ENGINES EPR WAS BETWEEN 1.24 AND 1.26 WITH PARKING BRAKE ON AND WITHOUT GROUND CHOCKS. THE ALTERNATE BRAKE PRESSURE WAS NORMAL. (WITH PARKING BRAKE ON, BRAKE PRESSURE IS SUPPLIED BY ALTERNATE).
13 SECONDS BEFORE THE IMPACT THE AIRCRAFT STARTED TO MOVE. WITHIN 1 OR 2 SECONDS THE CREW APPLIED BRAKE PEDAL INPUTS AND SELECTED PARKING BRAKE OFF. THESE ACTIONS LED THE NORMAL BRAKE PRESSURE TO INCREASE TO ITS NORMAL VALUE.
2 SECONDS PRIOR BEFORE THE IMPACT, ALL 4 ENGINE THRUST LEVERS WERE SELECTED TO IDLE. THE AIRCRAFT IMPACTED THE CONTAINMENT WALL AT A GROUND SPEED OF 30 KTS.
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF ANY AIRCRAFT SYSTEM OR ENGINE MALFUNCTION. AIRBUS REMINDS ALL OPERATORS TO STRICTLY ADHERE TO AMM PROCEDURES WHEN PERFORMING ENGINE GROUND RUNS ENGINE GROUND RUNS AT HIGH POWER ARE NORMALLY CONDUCTED ON A SINGLE ENGINE WITH THE ENGINE IN THE SAME POSITION ON THE OPPOSITE WING OPERATED AT A LIMITED THRUST SETTING TO AVOID DAMAGE TO THE AIFRAME WHEEL CHOCKS ARE TO BE INSTALLED THROUGHOUT THE TEST. YANNICK MALINGE VICE PRESIDENT FLIGHT SAFETY AIRBUS
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: airtac on November 29, 2007, 05:16:14 PM
"all four engines EPR 1.24 to1.26" ::eek:: ::eek:: Sounds like somebody is in the unemployment line today
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on November 29, 2007, 05:56:39 PM
"all four engines EPR 1.24 to1.26" ::eek:: ::eek:: Sounds like somebody is in the unemployment line today
No kidding. I don't know of any large transport category airplanes that have strong enough brakes to withstand a full-power runup. Even most GA airplanes will really have their brakes put to the test by something like this. So these guys weren't following procedure. No chocks, and running up all engines instead of one-two at a time. Too bad...
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Frank N. O. on November 29, 2007, 06:00:29 PM
"all four engines EPR 1.24 to1.26" ::eek:: ::eek:: Sounds like somebody is in the unemployment line today
What's EPR again? Does those figures mean 124-126% of normal max power? I always did wonder how wheels could hold thrust from big planes when they did engine tests (as I asked about in the other sub-forum recently). I'm not one to comment about subjects I'm not skilled in but having all four engines on such an aircraft run on full power at the same time with just wheelbrakes to hold it sounds totally braindead!
Frank
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Fabo on November 29, 2007, 06:37:14 PM
It is ratio of air flowing through 1st stage and 2nd stage of turbine, or inner/outer or something. It is a ratio anyway :D
The higher EPR the higher thrust.
edit: read this :)
Quote
The ratio of pressure in the front of the engine to the air exiting the back. EPR is used to set engine power.
There are two probes, the front one called PT2 and the back one is PT7. PT is Total pressure and the number is the engine station (2 being the front of the first stage commpressor/fan and 7 being just behind the last turbine stage). These pressures are brought into the EPR gauge and compared to produce a reading.
1.00 is no thrust and what is read when the engine is shut down.
Readings vary from engine to engine. The JT8D on the 727 had a typical takeoff setting of 2.00 to 2.02. The RB211 is like 1.55, even though it produces way more thrust.
Large fan engines seem to have lower EPRs since the extra turbines for the large fan lower the pressure in the exhaust. Also Rolls Royce uses IEPR (Integrated Engine Pressure Ratio) that take pressure readings from the fan discharge as well.
The numbers will be aircraft/engine specific. Fuel flow is also used to determine engine power settings.
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on November 29, 2007, 06:44:30 PM
EPR = Engine Pressure Ratio
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on November 29, 2007, 07:16:50 PM
Quote
...13 SECONDS BEFORE THE IMPACT THE AIRCRAFT STARTED TO MOVE. WITHIN 1 OR 2 SECONDS THE CREW APPLIED BRAKE PEDAL INPUTS AND SELECTED PARKING BRAKE OFF. THESE ACTIONS LED THE NORMAL BRAKE PRESSURE TO INCREASE TO ITS NORMAL VALUE.
2 SECONDS PRIOR BEFORE THE IMPACT, ALL 4 ENGINE THRUST LEVERS WERE SELECTED TO IDLE. THE AIRCRAFT IMPACTED THE CONTAINMENT WALL AT A GROUND SPEED OF 30 KTS.
This crew kept the power levers up for a full 9 seconds after they started moving!!! Why on earth didn't they abort the runup as soon as they realized the brakes weren't holding? They just kept the power up and tried to hold it with normal brakes until it was way too late!
Then they hit that wall going 30kts. ::unbelieveable:: ::unbelieveable:: ::unbelieveable::
Yup. I am afraid someone will be on the unemployment line after they get out of the hospital.
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: airtac on November 29, 2007, 07:42:20 PM
"all four engines EPR 1.24 to1.26" ::eek:: ::eek:: Sounds like somebody is in the unemployment line today
What's EPR again? Does those figures mean 124-126% of normal max power? I always did wonder how wheels could hold thrust from big planes when they did engine tests (as I asked about in the other sub-forum recently). I'm not one to comment about subjects I'm not skilled in but having all four engines on such an aircraft run on full power at the same time with just wheelbrakes to hold it sounds totally braindead!
Frank
Frank, I may have shot my mouth off prior to fully understanding EPR (Engine Pressure Ratio) readings---I don't have turbofan experience. EPR measures the difference between the gas turbine outlet and the compressor inlet and I thought that it could also be used as a percentage of power produced----now I'm doubting myself :-[ How about someone with some experience jumping in here and telling me/us what this is more accurately ::bow::
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Baradium on November 29, 2007, 10:49:57 PM
They're saying that it did all that just moving 30 kts with the engines at idle?
EDIT: Some added information from a 767 pilot...
Large turbine FADEC engines take 10-15 seconds to spool down. So these engines were probobly at high thrust for another 10 seconds after impact. Additionally, he reminded me that idle thrust on those engines isn't exactly trivial either.
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on November 30, 2007, 12:12:45 AM
Baradium, that's yet another reason why they should have cut the power as soon as they realized their brakes weren't holding them.
Oh nevermind! Had they chocked the wheels as they were supposed to this accident would never have happened!
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Baradium on November 30, 2007, 12:53:43 AM
Baradium, that's yet another reason why they should have cut the power as soon as they realized their brakes weren't holding them.
Oh nevermind! Had they chocked the wheels as they were supposed to this accident would never have happened!
I'm not going to argue that, I agree with you completely there. 10 seconds is an awfully long time to be sitting there without pulling those levers back.
Keep in mind that not only did they fail to chock the wheels, they weren't supposed to be doing simultaneous 4 engine runups even *with* the wheels chocked.
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on November 30, 2007, 12:57:14 AM
I agree with you, Bara. I left out the part about all four engines being run up (against procedure) as I was just trying to keep my post short and sweet! Hehe.
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Frank N. O. on November 30, 2007, 02:38:19 AM
"all four engines EPR 1.24 to1.26" ::eek:: ::eek:: Sounds like somebody is in the unemployment line today
What's EPR again? Does those figures mean 124-126% of normal max power? I always did wonder how wheels could hold thrust from big planes when they did engine tests (as I asked about in the other sub-forum recently). I'm not one to comment about subjects I'm not skilled in but having all four engines on such an aircraft run on full power at the same time with just wheelbrakes to hold it sounds totally braindead!
Frank
Frank, I may have shot my mouth off prior to fully understanding EPR (Engine Pressure Ratio) readings---I don't have turbofan experience. EPR measures the difference between the gas turbine outlet and the compressor inlet and I thought that it could also be used as a percentage of power produced----now I'm doubting myself :-[ How about someone with some experience jumping in here and telling me/us what this is more accurately ::bow::
The percentage of power was my guess since I didn't know the term so don't worry about it :)
Frank
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Mic on December 15, 2007, 06:18:08 PM
Some serious but unofficial source said me one of the mechanic should have quit the right pilot seat and shoot the parking brake lever with his foot... Right of false ...
The engine will spool down quickly enough to stop the aircraft with full brake power applied but ... the power levers must be set to idle ... When the BEA (french investigation office) write that the power stays applied up to 2 seconds prior to impact, it means the power levers stayed set to full power utp to 2 seconds prior impact ...
By certification requirements (CS-25) the aicraft cannot move with parking brake applied and full power on all engines.
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Oddball on December 16, 2007, 12:41:30 PM
As part of my course we used to be able to taxi a cessna 310 for run up and taxi runs until some one pulled the undercarriage lever while playing hanger pilot no-one knew until we had to push it out from the hanger with gravity the locking arm was fine until we turned the tail to port and down she goes OOOPPPSSS!!!!
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: airtac on December 16, 2007, 04:19:54 PM
As part of my course we used to be able to taxi a cessna 310 for run up and taxi runs until some one pulled the undercarriage lever while playing hanger pilot no-one knew until we had to push it out from the hanger with gravity the locking arm was fine until we turned the tail to port and down she goes OOOPPPSSS!!!!
ITEM #1 on mental checklist when entering ANY airplane---when my butt hits the seat, make sure gear handle in "down" position---never found it otherwise but you never know ::thinking::
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Oddball on December 16, 2007, 07:30:41 PM
should of added that the lever was in the down position but the 310 had last position memory so even if the handle was in the down position the wont be and it still would of moved
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on March 02, 2008, 08:05:53 AM
Another friend emailed the "rest" of the story to me. I deleted the pics since they're already posted on this thread. Can anyone verify this information through Airbus or the french Safety Board?
Quote
In case you missed it: good photos of what NOT to do while working in the cockpit of a modern air craft -- a clear case of "ESO" (engineering speak for Equipment Smarter than Operator).
This wreck is a brand new A340-600, never flown. Thank the French and their Arab friends for this bit of comedy. Nine employees of the airline in the aircraft, no employees from Airbus were present. They went out to the run-up area. Took all four engines to takeoff power with a virtually empty aircraft. No chocks, not that it would have mattered. Brakes will not hold it back anyway. Turns out the takeoff warning horn was blaring away in the cockpit because they had all FOUR engines at full power. The aircraft thought they were trying to takeoff but it had not been configured properly (flaps/slats, etc). Someone decided to pull the "Ground Sense" circuit breaker. This fools the aircraft into thinking it is in the air.
BIG mistake! As soon as they do that, the computers released all the brakes. (Safety feature so that folks don't land with the brakes on.)
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Fabo on March 02, 2008, 10:37:15 AM
That is why I dont like Airbus philosophy. ::sulk::
Good ole T154...
Title: Re: A340 crash in france....
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on March 03, 2008, 06:30:36 AM
Quote
Turns out the takeoff warning horn was blaring away in the cockpit because they had all FOUR engines at full power. The aircraft thought they were trying to takeoff but it had not been configured properly (flaps/slats, etc). Someone decided to pull the "Ground Sense" circuit breaker. This fools the aircraft into thinking it is in the air.
BIG mistake! As soon as they do that, the computers released all the brakes. (Safety feature so that folks don't land with the brakes on.)
If this information is correct and the story is true, this makes this whole incident a riot! My apologies to the injured, but pulling a circuit breaker to kill a warning horn which also releases the brakes is something straight out of a Three Stooges short or maybe the Keystone Cops. ::rofl:: ::rofl:: ::rofl:: ::rofl:: ::rofl::
