Roost Air Lounge => Aviation related topics => Topic started by: undatc on October 25, 2007, 01:35:14 AM
Title: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: undatc on October 25, 2007, 01:35:14 AM
Sad night here on campus.
http://www.wdaz.com/news/index.cfm?id=341
Quote
BROWERVILLE, Minn. (AP) _ A flight instructor and a student pilot died when a University of North Dakota airplane crashed in a swampy area during a training flight from St. Paul to Grand Forks, the Todd County Sheriff's Department confirmed Wednesday night.
An air crew from the Minnesota Wing of the Civil Air Patrol found the wreckage near Turtle Creek Township northeast of Browerville around 4:10 p.m., the CAP said.
A search and rescue team from the sheriff's department and a CAP ground team from St. Cloud confirmed the find.
The pilot, Annette Klosterman, 22, a UND flight instructor from Seattle, and Adam Ostapenko, 20, a junior aviation student from Duluth, were killed in the crash, authorities said.
The UND plane had left St. Paul shortly before 9:30 p.m. Tuesday. Air traffic officials in Minneapolis last spoke to Klosterman and Ostapenko in a routine conversation at 10:15 p.m., in the St. Cloud area.
The plane was due to arrive in Grand Forks at 11:45 p.m. Tuesday, Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman Elizabeth Isham Cory said. The FAA sent out a notice at 1:46 a.m. Wednesday, alerting airports and law enforcement officials along the flight path, when the pilot did not close out the flight plan that had been filed with the agency before takeoff, she said.
"What (the notice) does is alert airports and sheriffs and local law enforcement on the path ... and asked them to start looking," Isham Cory said.
A ground search of all airports from St. Cloud to Grand Forks was conducted early Wednesday, UND said, and the Civil Air Patrol sent five aircraft at daybreak to continue the search.
Civil Air Patrol Capt. Al Pabon said more planes joined the search Wednesday afternoon, with volunteer pilots coming from several Minnesota cities.
The crash site is about 20 miles northwest of Little Falls.
Last December, two UND students were killed when a single-engine Cessna left the Crookston airport and crashed into a farm field. Friends said pilot Jacob Rueth, 18, of Orland Park, Ill., and passenger Jacob Allen Sundblad, 19, of Annandale, had gone to practice takeoffs and landings.
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: Frank N. O. on October 25, 2007, 01:38:39 AM
My sincere condolences :'(
Frank
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: RagDragger on October 25, 2007, 02:28:15 AM
Damn, not another. Sorry to hear that.
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: gibbo_335 on October 25, 2007, 02:33:51 AM
OH DEAR, my sincerest condolenses to the families :'( |:)\ |:)\
Being a student pilot myself I hate to hear this stuff :(
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: TheSoccerMom on October 25, 2007, 05:42:50 AM
Oh how sad... that is even harder to hear, when people are so young. Condolences... :'(
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: Fabo on October 25, 2007, 11:58:28 AM
Odpočinutie večné daj im Pane a svetlo večné nech im svieti, nech odpočívajú v pokoji. Amen
Deepest sympathy to the families and friends.
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: PiperGirl on October 25, 2007, 12:34:11 PM
This is tough... especially when working at a flight school and knowing it could happen at any school - or to any pilot... Will be praying for the familes and friends. My deepest sympathy...
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on October 25, 2007, 02:12:31 PM
This sucks. Especially being so close to home.
Chris, did you know either of them?
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: undatc on October 25, 2007, 03:09:17 PM
Not directly. I had seen the CFI around school (one of the few women instructing) but didn't know her in person. Within my fraternity house, my little brother was friends with the student, and one of my other good friends roomate had her for his CFI. So it does hit home to some extent. All flight Ops are closed today. I am in aviation safety right now with the director of safety for aerospace, so I'm pretty sure class will be canceled today.
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on October 25, 2007, 03:12:45 PM
Well, prop each other up. Be strong.
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: PiperGirl on April 17, 2008, 05:37:15 PM
Reviving an old thread... I thought you might like to read this, though.
I just saw a blurb on AvWeb - UND has released a preliminary cause of the crash. No word yet from the NTSB
Quote
A bird strike likely caused the crash that killed two University of North Dakota students last year, according to investigators at the school, the school newspaper reported...
Also, here's a link to the School's release: http://media.www.dakotastudent.com/media/storage/paper970/news/2008/04/15/News/Deadly.Plane.Crash.Likely.Caused.By.Bird.Strike-3325789.shtml (http://media.www.dakotastudent.com/media/storage/paper970/news/2008/04/15/News/Deadly.Plane.Crash.Likely.Caused.By.Bird.Strike-3325789.shtml)
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on April 17, 2008, 08:59:16 PM
Bird strikes are a routine hazard in Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas in both spring and fall. I consider myself fortunate to have survived my birdstrike with a Canadian Goose. We knew it was a goose because after I landed we found bits and pieces of goose feathers stuck to the fuselage from the passenger door all the way back to the tail of the airplane. It was a dark moonless night, and I only hit one about 4 feet out on the leading edge of the wing in the C210. Canadian geese never fly alone though and I kept thinking to myself, "Where were his buddies?"
These two pilots really hit the jackpot. I don't know of any way this could have been avoided by them. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it happened after dark. According to these accounts, one of the two birds they struck hit the stabilator and bent it 90 degrees up... more than enough to make the airplane uncontrollable. At least it went quick for them.
About the only lesson to be learned from this is to go to the research that I think was published by the US Air Force. Their research indicated that about 70% of all bird strikes happen within 3000 feet AGL, so if you live along a flyway it behooves you to fly higher if you can. However, I personally have encountered flocks of Canadian geese as high as 8000 MSL in the Dakotas, and I have read accounts of them going into the flight levels during migration so there are no guarentees.
Also, most migratory ducks and geese travel at night. If you are out there, by all means turn on every landing light and strobe light you possibly can! It might save you. When bagged my goose I had my strobes on, but no landing lights. My employer strongly discouraged the use of landing lights in either day or night time, because the lights were only good for about 25hrs of operation before they burned out and he was trying to keep that expense down. Needless to say that I ignored his directive after that!
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: PiperGirl on April 17, 2008, 09:49:27 PM
I actually never knew until now that migratory birds flew at night or as high (up in the flight levels). I can't remember ever really discussing bird strikes (and avoidance) with my flight instructors. Thanks RC.
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: airtac on April 18, 2008, 07:28:11 AM
HMM--been flying airplanes at night for a long time and have never seen birds so I checked the web after reading your letter and by golly, you are exactly right |:)\ Don't know why I ever missed that information but I reckon the old saying about "ignorance is bliss" certainly covered my experience----although, now that I know, it's just one more thing to worry about-------THANKS A LOT ::complaining: ::complaining:
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on April 18, 2008, 02:31:29 PM
Quote
HMM--been flying airplanes at night for a long time and have never seen birds so I checked the web after reading your letter and by golly, you are exactly right
My point is that you will NEVER see them at night! I didn't. I was flying along happy as pig in $h1t, when BAM!!! The whole airplane shuddered and yawed, then it started feeling funny. I never had any warning, never saw a thing, nothing.
I'll look through my desktop this evening and see if I can find the pics I took of the leading edge of the wing. It didn't look too bad, but the leading edge was bashed in all the way to the forward spar along a 3 foot section or so which left a flat plate along my leading edge of about 8 inches thickness!
If you fly with your landing lights on at night you'll never know whether you have saved yer butt or not, but I figure its cheap insurance.
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: airtac on April 18, 2008, 04:07:06 PM
HMM--been flying airplanes at night for a long time and have never seen birds so I checked the web after reading your letter and by golly, you are exactly right
My point is that you will NEVER see them at night! I didn't. I was flying along happy as pig in $h1t, when BAM!!! The whole airplane shuddered and yawed, then it started feeling funny. I never had any warning, never saw a thing, nothing.
I'll look through my desktop this evening and see if I can find the pics I took of the leading edge of the wing. It didn't look too bad, but the leading edge was bashed in all the way to the forward spar along a 3 foot section or so which left a flat plate along my leading edge of about 8 inches thickness!
If you fly with your landing lights on at night you'll never know whether you have saved yer butt or not, but I figure its cheap insurance.
I got your point, |:)\and my point was, that in several thousand hours of night flight, it was only my astounding ignorance of migrating bird habits that kept me from worrying :-[
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: TheSoccerMom on April 18, 2008, 05:38:44 PM
The worst birdstrike I ever got was at night -- we had on recognition lights and strobes, etc., but not landing lights. The entire windshield was sagged inward and luckily the laminate layer held it there as we descended out of 17,500 MSL. Made it to the airport okay but it was just luck it didn't blow completely out, which would have been some fun at night in a King Air. As it was, it was a weird situation to land, since everything was refracted into a million prisms of sparkly light, and we we trying like hell to use as much side vision as possible to figure out where the hell we were.
The conclusion was it was a duck, as we figured a heavy goose would have just come right on through and nailed us.
It made for a short night at work and another, more original, excuse to head for the bar. ::whistle::
;)
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: PiperGirl on April 18, 2008, 07:05:07 PM
Don't they test some of the bigger airplane windscreens by shooting frozen chickens/turkeys at them?
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: Franz on April 18, 2008, 09:35:07 PM
I've read something along those lines, too. But I think they normally don't use frozen ones. There are stories which suggest that during such tests all windscreens were penetrated until they tried thawing the birds . . .
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: undatc on April 18, 2008, 09:56:05 PM
My roommate is a CFI right now at UND and the NTSB came in and briefed all of the flight staff on exactly what they think happened. They extracted the last 5 min or so of data from the flight director and from that, as well as DNA on the surface of the place come to the following conclusion.
The aircraft was straight and level, the initial strike was on the nose, when in turn caused the airplane to pitch downwards. In turn that pushed the tail up, which then hit the next bird. because of the angle of the now bent tail, it caused the plane to pitch up and also roll over onto its back and pitch downward straight into the swamp. Estimated time from first strike to impact: 6 seconds.
They told them that the force of hitting a 15lb Canada goose at 151 TAS was equal to dropping a 10,000 lb weight from 10 feet in the air. There was literally nothing they could have done.
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: airtac on April 18, 2008, 11:45:15 PM
SHOOTING FROZEN CHICKENS AT A WINDSHIELD!! ::eek:: I think someone better take Chuck out for a drink--he may never be the same if he reads that! ::drinking::
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: Oddball on April 19, 2008, 07:08:45 AM
us brits done it first but it was the U.S.A.F who had the bright idea of firing frozen chickens at canopies but for some reason they kept on shattering until some bright spark had the brain wave of defrosting them first (HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE i have seen the evidence at college)
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: Baradium on April 30, 2008, 12:12:52 AM
Sounds they really never even had a clue what was happening. At least it was fast.
us brits done it first but it was the U.S.A.F who had the bright idea of firing frozen chickens at canopies but for some reason they kept on shattering until some bright spark had the brain wave of defrosting them first (HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE i have seen the evidence at college)
You know, all the accounts *I've* read were that y'all were running to NASA after you borrowed NASA's bird cannon and all your windshields were being penetrated. ;)
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: Oddball on April 30, 2008, 12:15:09 AM
thats what you are led to belive but i have seen the tapes from the good ole USAF and stories from some retired R.A.F bods
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: airtac on April 30, 2008, 12:28:21 AM
Yeah, the USAF is such third rate military organization, and they fly such technically inferior aircraft too ;)
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: G-man on April 30, 2008, 02:26:52 AM
thats what you are led to belive but i have seen the tapes from the good ole USAF and stories from some retired R.A.F bods
Ahhh--You are young and have a lot to learn Oddball. There is a reason that more Scots live OUTSIDE of Scotland than live there.. Give it a few years and you will understand..
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on June 17, 2008, 08:56:19 AM
I had long since given up on finding this pic. Just came across it while searching for an unrelated item. This happened back October of 2003, so its been a while. Still gives me the willies.
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: Oddball on June 17, 2008, 10:24:19 AM
thas nasty. ::unbelieveable:: ::eek::
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: Ragwing on June 17, 2008, 12:35:15 PM
Don't they test some of the bigger airplane windscreens by shooting frozen chickens/turkeys at them?
You test the windscreens with fresh chickens (with the chicken gun). During the development of the 757/767 the windscreens held up fine. Then somebody missed and the bird struck above the windscreen penetrating the aluminum structure and making a mess. Needless to say, the skin above the windscreen was re-designed.
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: chuckar101 on June 18, 2008, 12:41:11 AM
A cessna up in sacramento hit a turkey vulture about a month ago. Went clean thru the right side of the windshield and into the backseat. Cut the pilot on the right arm but there was blood and feathers everywhere in the cockpit. Looked nasty. Pilot got down alright though. Was pretty shaken up though
Title: Re: Sad Day for UND...
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on June 22, 2008, 10:32:05 PM
I forgot to add to that post with the pic that you can see the splatters along the door which came from that goose. The friggin bird apparently exploded on impact! ::eek:: Still amazes me to this day how far the splatters went while we were criusing at around 170Kts or so.
