Roost Air Lounge > The Classroom
Missed Approach
undatc:
So, its the magical time of year, where the FAA decides that after a winter of chaos, they will "refresh" us on some techniques. Most of the controllers are livid right now over a way the supes want us to issue this clearance, here's the scenario.
N123 is at an airport on an IFR clearance, requests multiple practice approaches and touch an gos. He is currently missed and states that after this approach he would like a clearance back to home. What do you do?
What me, and 99.9999999% of all the controllers in the room agree upon, is that "upon completion of this approach, fly the published missed, expect climb and maintain X altitude". Where the X altitude is an appropriate altitude that would allow us to issue a clearance for his trip home. N123 would then be expected to fly the approach, do his touch and go/low approach (whatever he wants), go missed then climb to the altitude ATC assigns.
What the supes say is that, we can issue his departure clearance to him on his approach, as once he crosses the end of the runway he becomes a departure aircraft so therefore we can assign him his departure clearance. Which we disagree with for several reasons:
1) An aircraft conducting an IFR approach ‘owns’ the entire approach, which includes the missed approach, so he has the prerogative to fly it if he wants. (IE we cant tell him to not fly it, and then fly something else instead, unless they are alternate missed approach procedures.)
2) Departure procedures are flight checked for aircraft that are on the ground at the airport, not airborne already conducting an approach.
3) The AIM clearly states that an aircraft shall declare missed not later than DH, however in the real world, I would expect that its possible for an aircraft to declare missed even after they’ve touched down (ie we just landed and “oh ^&*% there’s a truck on the runway”).
4) Lastly, by assigning the departure clearance, you’re also authorizing that aircraft to fly any departure procedure that applies to the airport. Everything from the ODP to a full graphical SID. Can we really expect a pilot, in potential IFR conditions, to dig through his flight bag, and find the ODP/SID, and then figure out how to fly that, as he’s shooting final in low IFR? I just don’t feel that its safe.
So here’s the question; as an IFR pilot shooting and approach, in this scenario, what would YOU expect?
G-man:
Are we sure that N123 is actually IFR capable...
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=123
Aside from making jokes, I cannot comment as I have no instrument rating although do check my pilots every year on inadvertent IMC procedures....
Mike:
I am not 100% sure what you're getting at but:
When I am on an IFR approach, I get to call the missed at any time I want. Like you said, it should be at DH but it can be after that and certainly before that as well.
Not sure how I would feel about having a clearance right after passing DH. My mind will be occupied otherwise and it will be primed to fly the published missed since having a plan is a good thing.
Atfer I am all set with flaps and speed, I am ready to do whatever ATC wants me to do but not before and I am not sure I'd remember whatever the clearance was right as I was rotating since flying the aircraft comes first.
Also, what happens if I decide to not go missed (for whatever reason, engine, ....)
Also, G-Man has a valid question since what I wrote applies to an actual IFR situation.
Are they talking about an aircraft that's strictly a training aircraft and just practicing IFR in VFR conditions?
undatc:
For the purpose of this, it doesn't matter if you're real IFR or if you're doing practice approaches in VFR. We as ATC treat them the same for separation responsibility, terrain & other aircraft (unless we specifically tell you that we're not providing you separation services, which is a whole other debate......)
Part of the issue here (and maybe we can get rooster cruiser in here on this since I think he did some flight checking somewhere), is that the missed approach is only flight checked for a climb out at X fpm from DH. The missed procedures (from what I've read), are not flight checked for calling missed after DH. Stupid, but that's the way I read it at least. I agree with you completely that you should be able (and have the right) to call missed whenever you want.
Having the clearance is another issue. For instance, the missed procedures at an airport that I work with, on a particular approach calls for a minimum 200 fpm climb. But the DP at that airport calls for a minimum climb of 500 fpm. If I issue your departure clearance as you're on approach, which one do you adhere to?
In practice what they are wanting us to do (which I think is bad practice), will go something like this;
"N123 cross XYZ vortac at 5 thousand cleared approach, at the completion of this approach you're cleared to KSFO via XYZ as filed. Maintain 110."
I guess where/what I'm getting at here, is what would you as a guy in IFR conditions doing practice approaches want? I know as I walk into the control room Sunday afternoon (from my nap ;) ) I wont be doing it the way they are telling us. I'll issue you the published missed with an alternate altitude to maintain, then once your established in the hold or above my MIA, I'll clear ya to wherever ya want.
TheSoccerMom:
I guess to me it would make ALL the difference if this was happening in VMC or IMC (practice-approach-wise).
Your mention of the climb gradiant required says it all -- no way would I flip from the published missed in IMC, to change to a DP that may require totally different a/c performance. IMC, I'd fly the entire missed, then proceed on course.
But, in VMC, with the usual scenario of trying to hammer out as many approaches and procedures as you can in a short time, getting the DP would be an interesting change. It seems odd, though -- I'd still want (and expect) to proceed with the missed. Though, I guess it could be good for watching the poor bastard in the left seat thrash around with the box...
I keep thinking of this, since we've spent the last two weeks doing just this. And, with all the multiple approaches and holds and misses, in a mountain valley, I can't quite fit in throwing in the DP into any of those -- it just doesn't seem to flow right. Your #2 reason, in your original post, is the Biggie, to me -- those clouds are FULL OF GRANITE. Something just doesn't ADD UP. ::thinking::
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