Author Topic: Life without 100LL.  (Read 12265 times)

Offline Mike

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Re: Life without 100LL.
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2010, 05:25:03 PM »
I have to admit, I have flown with Avgas only once last year, so I am not 100% up on the subject, but it does seem like a bigger deal this time around.....
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Offline Oddball

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Re: Life without 100LL.
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2010, 08:21:54 AM »
This just shows I'm not keep current as much as I wanted  :-\  never know about 100LL being phased out.
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Offline Lt.Fubar

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Re: Life without 100LL.
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2010, 07:55:31 PM »
Just use the synthetic. Cost wise it is today as costly as the oil based fuel, but some types are more "Eco - friendly". You can also use a mix of alcohol - needs a little reacher mixture though.

There are many substitutes for Avgas, don't worry, those warbirds will fly for decades after the 100LL go away (and that won't happen soon).
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Offline Ragwing

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Re: Life without 100LL.
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2010, 12:52:20 AM »
getting rid of AVGAS is more a money issue than an environmental issue I am thinking......
The EPA is pushing to remove the lead.
This leads to expensive costs in refining and transport of our precious Avgas.
Special train cars and delivery trucks that can only haul avgas.
The low volume becomes a specialty item for the refineries and that costs money.
The refineries would really like to quit producing this low volume product.
Today's decisions are made on financial criteria not dedication to their customers.

You can also use a mix of alcohol - needs a little richer mixture though.
Many problems with mogas.
We have to test each gas station to ensure that there is no alcohol in the fuel (some stations include up to 10 percent).
The mogas has a much wider allowance on the length of the hydrocarbon chains.
The shorter hydrocarbon chains have less energy per volume.
The shorter chains are more apt to evaporate causing varnish in your automobile or VAPOR LOCK in our aircraft.
Re Alcohol.  A lot lower energy per volume.  That is one reason your car's gas mileage decreases when you use alcohol in your fuel.

Engine manufacturers are having problems making diesel engines that are light enough to be shoehorned into existing aircraft designs.  Of greater concern is finding an alternative fuel that can be used by the current fleet of aircraft.
The diesel engines are improving their weight, but new baffling designs are required on a model by model design to handle the extra cooling (diesels run hotter). 

To keep the existing fleet running means NOT an engine overhaul but a completely new engine (STC or Type requirement).
You are looking at $25-50 thousand USD each.

The old low compression O-200 and O-300 engines can be used once somebody STC's a fuel system that prevents vapor lock.
The cost of doing that for every model is prohibitive.  Maybe for once the FAA will think with their heads.

Offline Ragwing

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Re: Life without 100LL.
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2010, 02:27:18 AM »
I forgot to mention.

For those of us who fly aircraft with fiberglass fuel tanks, the type of resin used is dissolved by alcohol.
Even years after curing!

Offline Rooster Cruiser

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Re: Life without 100LL.
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2010, 03:55:18 PM »
Quote
The cost of doing that for every model is prohibitive.  Maybe for once the FAA will think with their heads.

This isn't being driven by FAA.  It is being driven by the EPA, and EPA isn't known for thinking...  period.  It is pure politics, and EPA wants to show everyone just how green they are and how they are "protecting" the environment.  'Cost prohibitive' be dammed... it won't come out of their pockets.

RC
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Offline 4X-NTY

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Re: Life without 100LL.
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2010, 05:13:11 PM »
Quote
The cost of doing that for every model is prohibitive.  Maybe for once the FAA will think with their heads.

This isn't being driven by FAA.  It is being driven by the EPA, and EPA isn't known for thinking...  period.  It is pure politics, and EPA wants to show everyone just how green they are and how they are "protecting" the environment.  'Cost prohibitive' be dammed... it won't come out of their pockets.

RC

Sounds like my last homeowner.
She'd attend several green conventions,claimed to be a die-hard evironmental activist and in the house she whould attend about once in two month,the light are 24/7 on,so as the heating and jets in her jacuzzi. quite ironic isn't it...
Nitay "Pitz" Ronen

Offline Ragwing

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Re: Life without 100LL.
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2010, 03:31:59 AM »
This isn't being driven by FAA.  It is being driven by the EPA, and EPA isn't known for thinking...  period.  It is pure politics, and EPA wants to show everyone just how green they are and how they are "protecting" the environment.  'Cost prohibitive' be dammed... it won't come out of their pockets.
RC,
I was talking about the FAA approval process for alternate fuels or engines.
A simple engine upgrade for our older planes is quite expensive.
Stress analysis required - For airplanes that have never had a stress analysis done on them
Have you ever thought about changing the pitch of your prop? If it is not in the type certificate, forget it.

The EPA has their own quirks. 
The FAA has few words, most of them are NO and Pilot Error.
RW

Offline Mike

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Re: Life without 100LL.
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2010, 07:04:32 PM »
there you go, guys:



Revolutionary answer

GAMI formulates unleaded piston-engine aircraft fuel

Justin Lofton Staff Writer

Ada — George Braly and Tim Roehl may have solved a problem that’s been plaguing the aircraft industry and the Environmental Protection Agency for years. Braly and Roehl, owners of General Aviation Modifications, Inc. at Ada Municipal Airport, say they have formulated an unleaded piston-engine-aircraft fuel that may revolutionize the industry because it produces the same octane rating as leaded fuel.

“We have one of the finest test facilities in the country for being able to evaluate the octane performance of various fuels,” Roehl said.In November 2007, Friends of the Earth — an international network of environmental organizations — petitioned EPA in attempt to get "avgas," a high lead fuel regulated. Roehl said due to a court case with Friends of the Earth the EPA must finally force a removal of lead from avgas.

“Having been familiar with a lot of the formulations that have been tried in the past, we decided to formulate our own fuel,” Roehl said. “After about a month of testing, we feel confident that we have, in fact, come up with a fully 100 Motor Octane Number unleaded avgas fuel that meets essentially all of the requirements that avgas will need to meet.”

The new fuel is called G100UL. Roehl said they have filed for a patent and have applied for certification with the FAA. He said representatives with the FAA, The Aviation Consumer magazine, and General Aircraft Manufacturers Association have come to Ada to look at the fuel they’ve developed.

No ingredients in their formula should drive the cost of avgas up significantly, Roehl said.

“Our goal here is to preserve the opportunity for today’s aircraft engines to not only maintain existing aircraft performance levels but also to be able to raise those performance levels and improve the efficiency of those engines on a new unleaded high-octane fuel,” he said.

Roehl said the fuel has been tested in their testing facility, as well as in one of their airplanes. After more testing, he and Braly hope the formula can be licensed to world-wide avgas producers.

“We hope this fuel can be adopted as a replacement for 100LL and should serve to help the environment while maintaining the performance of our aircraft today,” Roehl said.

“For 15 years since the lead was removed from automobile gas, the EPA has given an extension to the general aviation industry to allow them to continue to try to find some additive to try to replace tetra-ethyl lead which would allow for the removal of lead and yet the retention of the 100 octane rating of the fuel.” Roehl said no substitute could be found that provided the same octane rating.

Roehl said there are approximately 200,000 airplanes currently flying in the world with piston aircraft engines—typically smaller single and twin engine airplanes. The standard fuel for these engines is called avgas, also known as 100LL (Low Lead). Roehl said tetra-ethyl lead is a major ingredient in the fuel.

“It’s the last remaining leaded fuel allowed by the EPA,” he said. “As airplanes and engines are certified by the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration), the engines’ horsepower and performance is based upon the octane rating of the fuel. If you decrease the octane rating of the fuel, the engines cannot make the rated horsepower and the engines and the airframes in combination can’t perform according to their certification basis.”

Roehl said they’ve tested several unleaded fuels others have formulated to try and solve this problem.
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Offline Mike

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Re: Life without 100LL.
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2010, 07:06:08 PM »
maybe Chucks Corsair will fly one day after all . . .  ::whistle:: ;D
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Offline Oddball

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Re: Life without 100LL.
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2010, 07:24:19 PM »
er how many parts does Chuck have for it so far and has any of it been put together yet? lol
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Offline Fabo

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Re: Life without 100LL.
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2010, 02:55:09 PM »
Well, he has the seat and two barrels of engine oil, if i remember correctly :)

btw. isnt absence of lead contributing to shortening of engine life? I remember changes had to be make to valve system when Skoda motors were adopted for unleaded in late 80s.
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Offline Rooster Cruiser

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Re: Life without 100LL.
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2010, 04:23:41 AM »
EPA is giving US General Aviation another heads-up on their Advanced Notice of Proposed Rule Making (APRM).  Apparently once they publish this, we'll have a clue what the time frame will be, and what the various alphabet-soup organizations have come up with for alternative fuels.  Read more here from NBAA:

http://www.nbaa.org/news/pr/2010/20100421-022.php

RC
"Me 'n Earl was haulin' chickens / On a flatbed outta Wiggins..."

Wolf Creek Pass, by CW McCall