Author Topic: COORDINATED TURNS  (Read 9420 times)

fireflyr

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COORDINATED TURNS
« on: March 10, 2006, 04:58:31 PM »
Good Morning,
It's snowy here in Northern California so I thought it would be a good day to catch up on my recreational reading and the first magazine I picked up was Plane&Pilot.   As I read an article by Budd Davisson entitled 'SPINS' it  occurred to me that I had read some dangerous misconceptions about coordinated turns in posts under the "Would This Concept be Legal" thread.

It seems that some pilots were talking about the use of rudder only for making turns in some situations, which can be done, but not without understanding there can a good deal of risk involved, especially at low altitudes.   One post even stated that the rudder only turn was used to avoid "loss of lift" and this is wrong.   Since I'm not a wordsmith I'm going to quote Budd on this subject;

"The very fact that the airplane is in a turn raises the stall speed, BUT CROSSING THE CONTROLS SPOILS SOME LIFT AND FURTHUR INCREASES THE STALL SPEED.    So, even if the nose stays down, the margin between you and stall speed has decreased.  Furthermore, because of the decreased lift, the nose wants to go down, so some back pressure is applied to keep it from falling.   A really bad situation is in the making!"

Airplanes turn because bank angle causes the wing to "lift" you in the direction of the bank.
When you are making a coordinated turn, the rudder is used to match centrifugal force and bank angle so that for all practical purposes, what you FEEL (the sensation on your butt) is like level flight with an increase in G-force, or the same sensation as climb initiation.

I used to demonstrate spins to my primary students (if they wanted--I never forced them) and I usually did this in a base to final configuration with at least 3,000 AGL so they see how much altitude was lost (usually about 400 feet) before recovery even though we were anticipating the stall/spin.
Most were impressed at how low the nose appeared to be on the horizon at the stall and how fast the airplane snapped over the top into a spin.

I highly recommend getting your hands on a March 2006 Plane&Pilot and reading the article.   I would love to see further illumination and comments by anyone interested.

Jim
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 05:03:12 PM by fireflyr »

Offline Sleek-Jet

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Re: COORDINATED TURNS
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2006, 06:08:43 PM »
My comment in that thread was merely to state the fact that you can bank/turn an airplane using rudder alone. 

Those peddles on the floor are there for more than a way to steer oneself to the runway.  Coordinated flight is important.  Doing skidding/rudder only turns at low altitudes and low airspeeds is not the smartest thing in the world, especially since to staywings level, you would have to be cross controlled  :o .  But not leading the turn with the rudder can also lead to bad things at low airspeeds.  When an airplane stalls in coordinated flight, nothing to bad is going to happen as long as you have enough altitude to recover. 

This simple fact is, not alot of pilots use the rudder controlls as they should.  I've flown with more than one pilot where the nose of the airplane is wallering around in turns because their feet are flat on the floor.  And sitting in the back of an airplane in turbulence when the pilot is trying to raise a wing with aileron alone is a sure recipe for the use of the sick sack. 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 06:10:16 PM by Sleek-Jet »
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fireflyr

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Re: COORDINATED TURNS
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2006, 06:21:52 PM »
Exactly right Sleekjet,

The guy I'm flying with now in a 185 had to relearn a lot about rudder use, we did dutch rolls at the beginning of every flight until he started using enough rudder.
Jim

Offline Gulfstream Driver

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Re: COORDINATED TURNS
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2006, 08:27:27 PM »
It'd be nice if everyone could do some primary training in tail-draggers since they force you to learn proper rudder use. 
Behind every great man, there is a woman rolling her eyes.  --Bruce Almighty

fireflyr

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Re: COORDINATED TURNS
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2006, 10:48:48 PM »
Absolutely, I concur with that,
 Unfortunately the insurance rates for taildragger training aircraft is prohibitive.  Which brings up the old sore subject of lawyers and liability claims-- Hell, that's why flying's so darned expensive.
Before the lawsuit craze, you could buy a brand new 172 for about 3 times the cost of a new Chevy pickup, that would translate to about 90K in today's money.  I'm not sure but I think a new Cessna is about double that isn't it?

Old joke; what do you call a bus full of lawyers with one empty seat going off a cliff  ???

One point short of perfection!   :D :D

Offline Gulfstream Driver

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Re: COORDINATED TURNS
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2006, 12:29:46 AM »
A bare-bones 172 lists at $172,500.  G1000 is $210,000. 

FYI new Warriors are $195,000, but you get a full IFR bird with a Garmin 430. 
Behind every great man, there is a woman rolling her eyes.  --Bruce Almighty

fireflyr

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Re: COORDINATED TURNS
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2006, 03:05:43 PM »
A bare-bones 172 lists at $172,500. G1000 is $210,000.

FYI new Warriors are $195,000, but you get a full IFR bird with a Garmin 430.

Yeah, but (and this will spark some controversy) it's still a warrior with the wing on the bottom, everybody knows that real GA airplanes have the wing on top.   ::) ::) ::)

Offline Gulfstream Driver

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Re: COORDINATED TURNS
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2006, 05:37:17 PM »
 ::)  Please. 

One of my favorite activities is short-field take-offs in an Arrow when it's below 10oF.  :)  It's awesome.
Behind every great man, there is a woman rolling her eyes.  --Bruce Almighty

Offline FlyingBlind

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Re: COORDINATED TURNS
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2006, 06:07:10 PM »
IM taking a vacation from jumping atm :) and i try to keep as far from airplanes as possible.
But i actually read that article through .... its always interesting...we should put together a encyclopedia! ;D

Offline Gulfstream Driver

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Re: COORDINATED TURNS
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2006, 03:00:04 AM »
jumping atm?
Behind every great man, there is a woman rolling her eyes.  --Bruce Almighty

Offline Mike

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Re: COORDINATED TURNS
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2006, 03:01:12 AM »
HA

We all thought he's a skydiver and all this time he's jumping atm's.... ;D
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fireflyr

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Re: COORDINATED TURNS
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2006, 04:45:16 AM »
WELL DANG!

I've jumped batteries, jumped to conclusions, jumped out of airplanes, jumped on the bandwagon, jumped at deals, and jumped bones, but I never jumped an ATM-------I guess I could it for a (some) change!!!  HAHAHA----some change-get it!   HAHA---I crack myself up!   :D :D
« Last Edit: March 13, 2006, 05:10:52 AM by fireflyr »

Offline Frank N. O.

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Re: COORDINATED TURNS
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2006, 05:28:21 AM »
The comment on the rudder-turns with the small one was because as you've said that it's normally not very effective so using roll that creates differential lift is a lot better and then use the rudder for corrections where/when needed.

Funny joke about the jumper, but just in case someone doesn't understand ATM = At The Moment, an abbreviation like FYI and BTW. And isn't it normal to call skydivers jumpers since it starts by jumping out of a plane? Ok I think you all already know the above but I just wanted to try and help make sure there were no misunderstandings here :)

Frank
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Offline FlyingBlind

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Re: COORDINATED TURNS
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2006, 12:39:16 PM »
Theres 2 meanings to atm :P ATM - The thing that you get money from, atm - at the moment :D
so im taking a break from jumping at the moment :)

fireflyr

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Re: COORDINATED TURNS
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2006, 03:02:05 PM »
Thanks Frank, I knew that but I was just having fun.   Felt in a jovial mood lastnite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!