Boeing 7777 total power failure

[Mike]

I think the fact that nobody said anything about a loud bang before the drop all points to either windshear or microburst or something.
I can believe a pilot "thinking" he lost power all of a sudden as well.

Good thing we don't have to worry about windshear in helicopters too much . . . 

[Oddball]

sorry mike its just that i saw all these "experts" comment about it on BBC news 24 when i was at work ,even saw the ITN news at ten had made a flight sim of the crash landing, and all they could do is come up with wind shear when they did not what could of caused the crash

[Mike]

sorry mike its just that i saw all these "experts" comment about it on BBC news 24 when i was at work ,even saw the ITN news at ten had made a flight sim of the crash landing, and all they could do is come up with wind shear when they did not what could of caused the crash

maybe it WAS windshear ?!

I can't see a 777 just dropping for no reason NOR loose both engines at the same time NOR the plane let the pilots stall it . . .

[leiafee]

saw the news this morning at work the plane was fully configured for landing, it tore the starboard gear off and pushed the port gear through the wing, WIND SHEAR MY A**E!! if it happened about a minute ealier it would of been over central london

Ever considered applying for a job at the AAIB since you usefully and magically know at a glance what can and can't be ruled out as an accident cause.   

[leiafee]

Initial and tenative statement now released by the AAIB.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/accident__heathrow_17_january_2008___initial_report.cfm

First theory is an throttle problem.  As in More Throttle <> More Power!

I still dont think it's fair to over dramatise even so.  It could turn out to be something utterly trival that would have been resolvable if it had happened at altitude with time to troubleshoot, rather than on extremely short final.

[undatc]

Kinda interesting the LLWS facet of this.  Anyone have the weather that day for London?  It does take certain types of weather to produce LLWS, and I cant imagine that London isnt without LLWS alert systems being as large as it is.  A quick check of the ATIS for that time period will confirm if they had LLWS advisories in effect or not.

*Edit, one other thing, is LLWS were in effect, a METAR for that time period would also work as they would have to issue a SPECI if LLWS were detected, one of the few things that a SPECI has to be issued for.

[Mike]

Initial and tenative statement now released by the AAIB.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/accident__heathrow_17_january_2008___initial_report.cfm

First theory is an throttle problem.  As in More Throttle <> More Power!

I still dont think it's fair to over dramatise even so.  It could turn out to be something utterly trival that would have been resolvable if it had happened at altitude with time to troubleshoot, rather than on extremely short final.

Woah! 

This is always the kind of thing that scares me when flying with computer throttles and FADEC's.
I don't know why, maybe I am oldschool.

Could happen on mechanical throttles too though I guess . . . (cable break or jamb...)

[Baradium]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/01/18/i-ve-lost-power-i-ll-glide-her-in-89520-20289245/

Cool-headed Capt Peter Burkill realised his Boeing 777 had suffered a total power failure as he approached Heathrow at 200mph - and calmly announced: "I'll just have to glide it in."

The jet was flying over the densely populated West London suburbs surrounding the airport when he lost all power and all the electrics suddenly died.

Note that this is all preliminary and even some accounts given don't quite agree with this (keep in mind that non fliers many times mistake what they are seeing with regards to aircraft).

Also note I am below posting multiple articles, some are contradictory.

Heathrow crash pilot deserves 'medal as big as a frying pan'
MIRACLE OF FLIGHT BA038
By Martin Fricker And Rebecca Evans Martin.Fricker@Mirror.Co.Uk 18/01/2008
A heroic British Airways pilot averted catastrophe yesterday by gliding his jet into Heathrow after its engines failed.

Capt Peter Burkill kept Flight BA038 airborne over houses and schools before crash-landing in a field. Only 19 of the 136 people on board were hurt.

A witness said: "He deserves a medal as big as a frying pan."

The jet swooped in a few feet above cars heading for the airport - including one carrying Gordon Brown.


 Cool-headed Capt Peter Burkill realised his Boeing 777 had suffered a total power failure as he approached Heathrow at 200mph - and calmly announced: "I'll just have to glide it in."

The jet was flying over the densely populated West London suburbs surrounding the airport when he lost all power and all the electrics suddenly died.

Capt Burkill and his crew managed to keep it airborne above houses, schools and offices - clearing Heathrow's perimeter fence by just five feet before crash-landing into a field 500 yards short of the runway.

The undercarriage of Flight BA038 was partially ripped off, along with two wheels. But just 19 of the 136 passengers and crew were hurt - mostly suffering minor injuries.

One airport worker who spoke to Capt Burkill after his heroic efforts said: "He told me that the aircraft shut down and he lost all his power.

"He just glided it in and lifted the nose up and managed to get it down.

"He lost power very close to coming into land. It was over Hounslow or Feltham. He said he had no warning, absolutely nothing at all. Suddenly it's gone, boom, he's lost power, everything.

 
"It's a miracle he managed to land it. The man deserves a medal as big as a frying pan. He has done a fantastic job."

British Airways chief executive Willie Walsh echoed those views last night as he said: "I'd like to pay tribute to the 16 crew of the BA038 led by Capt Peter Burkill.

"They showed great courage and professionalism in landing the aircraft safely. All of the crew did a fantastic job evacuating the 136 passengers. They are all heroes and everyone at British Airways is very proud of them.

"An investigation is being conducted by the Air Accidents Investigation Branch so it would be inappropriate to speculate about the likely cause of this incident."

As the jet from Beijing crash-landed it gouged huge chunks out of the field. It skidded along before coming to a halt at the southernmost point of runway 27L, leaving a trail of debris in its wake.

Terrified passengers escaped from the jet down inflatable chutes as emergency vehicles raced towards them.

Last night they told of the nightmare as the plane belly-flopped on to the muddy field.

Jason Johnson said: "We came in very, very fast and I realised something was very wrong. It was like something I have never felt before. It felt like I was in a washing machine. When we landed I heard a bang and felt the plane slide. The wings were making cracking sounds. It was very, very loud."

Chinese passenger Mrs Ding, who injured her hand, said: "I didn't know what was happening. There was no warning.

"Suddenly we crash landed. We all jarred in our seat. My head whipped forward and my back snapped. It was excruciating.

"There was screaming near me. It was terrifying - like a movie with things flying everywhere and yelps from staff and passengers. I don't remember being walked to the emergency chute - but someone must have guided me. It just remember hitting the ground very hard."

Fernando Pardo was sitting above the left wing when it smashed into the ground. He said: "I was sitting on the left hand side of the plane facing backwards overlooking the wing. Thank God I survived. I feel as if I won the lottery today."

Paul Venter saw Captain Burkill after the landing - and said the pilot looked stunned.

He added: "I didn't speak to him, but he looked very pale."

Wang Man, 20, who was flying to London to see her boyfriend for the first time in five months, said: "I was very scared.

"There wasn't an announcement so nobody was braced for a crash landing. People were just screaming." Jerome Ensinck said he felt extremely lucky to have escaped unscathed.

He said: "People looked shocked as they exited the plane and we all got out as quickly as possible. It was only when I left and looked back that I appreciated what a close call it was."

Witnesses on the ground described how the six-year-old aircraft came screaming in at 12.42pm - just a few feet above cars on the airport's perimeter road.

Taxi driver John Rowland said: "Instead of the usual 150ft up, the jet was was a matter of 20 or 15ft off the ground as it went over my cab. I shouted 'Oh my God' as it missed the top of the perimeter fence of the airport by about five feet.

"It was very very close to the top of my vehicle and even closer to the fence. It crashed down onto the grass and there was debris flying all over the place as it skidded along. I really thought it was in my cab. It was that close and there was that much noise."

Heathrow ground worker Andrew Blows said the plane suddenly "dropped like a stone" as it approached the runway.

He said: "Its wheels were down properly and it seemed to be coming in totally normally until it got to about 50ft above the ground, then it just dropped like a stone.

"It was absolutely terrifying to watch, I really thought we were going to have a disaster on our hands.

"As it finally skidded to a halt I stood watching - just waiting for it to burst into flames."

Nineteen people, both British and Chinese, were taken to Hillingdon Hospital suffering from minor injuries. A spokeswoman said a number were suffering from whiplash. The most seriously injured has a broken leg. At least four of the injured were from the crew but Capt Burkill, who has 20 years flying experience, was not among them.

Last night investigators were examining the crash site. The plane underwent a regular maintenance check last month. It is one of 43 Boeing 777s in BA's fleet.

It is the first 777 to crash and BA last night said it had no plans to ground the rest of its fleet. A spokeswoman added: "No aircraft are being taken out of service while the investigation into the crash continues."

A total of 221 flights were cancelled following the accident and many others were delayed. Bosses at Heathrow say the backlog could take days to clear.

Transport Secretary Ruth Kelly last night paid tribute to the emergency services and said she was relieved no passengers had been seriously injured. She added: "The next step is to find out what happened and why."

Aviation expert Kieran Daly from Flight International magazine said he was shocked by the accident, given the high quality of the aircraft, airline and airport involved.

He added: "The 777 is pretty much state of the art at the moment, even though it has been around for quite a long time. It's hard to understand what might have gone wrong.

"We're talking about one of the most advanced aircraft in the world, operated by one of the most safety-conscious airlines in the world, flying into one of the safest airports in the world. It's quite a surprise."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/01/18/heathrow-crash-plane-s-engines-went-in-reverse-89520-20289275/

Heathrow crash plane's engines 'went in reverse'
MIRACLE OF FLIGHT BA038
By Mike Swain, Science Editor 18/01/2008
 The plane's engines could have switched into reverse as it approached, experts said last night.

They are computer controlled to do so "a few feet before the wheels hit the runway", a British Boeing pilot with 25 years' experience said.

He added: "Looking at the pictures I can see the engines were in reverse thrust. It's a normal routine auxiliary braking system but if the computer malfunctioned and thought the plane was much lower than it really was, it could have caused this.

"The pilot reported loss of power and that's how it would feel - the plane would be trying to push itself backwards. Witnesses reported louder-than-usual engine noise and that's what you get in reverse thrust.


 "But the systems are almost foolproof and it's difficult to see how it could occur several hundred feet up."

Chris Yates, of Jane's Airport Review, said: "If the pilot had a total power failure he would have been able to do nothing but hold up the nose of the plane and pray. With a catastrophic engine shutdown the plane is just gliding at 200mph."

Jeff Jupp, of the Royal Academy of Engineering, said: "It looks consistent with a total power failure - except for emergency power for flight controls. Very unusual."

Other speculation centred on a bird being sucked into an engine - but the plane should have been able to land on one engine.

Investigators will also look at pilot error, gusting side winds and turbulence from a plane in front.

I'd like to note that I've had a radar altimeter malfunction before.  The most recent time was this week.   This wouldn't seem too likely if everything shut down, as it would seem the reversers wouldn't deploy.


Also, if he didn't see video of the plane on approach, the reversers could have been ripped back during the course of the crash.



Quote of the day:

"Like all airline pilots he is very good-looking. But he is also very focused and positive. He is definitely cool, calm and collected, the kind of person you would want to have in a crisis," said Valerie.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/01/18/heathrow-hero-pilot-is-cool-calm-and-collected-89520-20289828/

Heathrow hero pilot is 'cool, calm and collected'
By Mirror.co.uk 18/01/2008

Heathrow hero pilot Peter Burkill is “cool, calm and collected – the perfect man to have in a crisis” according to friends.

And today praise was heaped on the George Clooney lookalike and his cabin crew team who prevented a potential disaster on flight BA 038 at Heathrow yesterday.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown, who had a close shave as the stricken jet swooped low over the airport’s perimeter road, said: "I think it's right to pay tribute to the calmness and professionalism of the British Airways staff and the captain and what he achieved in landing the aircraft.”

Mr Brown was due to fly out to China and his plane was on the tarmac as the BA flight from Beijing slewed to a halt. Speaking from China, Mr Brown added: "The speed of the evacuation we saw at first hand, and the total professionalism and dedication of the staff.

 "It's at times like these you remember you are in the hands of staff who do a remarkable job."

A neighbour of Captain Burkill, Valerie Firminger, paid a more personal tribute to the father of three young sons.

"Like all airline pilots he is very good-looking. But he is also very focused and positive. He is definitely cool, calm and collected, the kind of person you would want to have in a crisis," said Valerie.

Captain Burkill and his wife Lynn live in a £500,000 detached house in Worcester.

Valerie added: "They are a lovely family. He's a great dad, great with the kids. He's just really nice and down to earth.”

BA chief executive Willie Walsh said last night: "I would like to pay tribute to the 16 crew of the BA038 led by Captain Peter Burkill.

"The flight crew showed great courage and professionalism in landing the aircraft safely.

"All of the crew did a fantastic job evacuating the 136 passengers. They are all heroes and everyone at British Airways is very proud of them."

Captain Burkill, who is in his mid-40s, enjoys up to four family holidays a year, including an annual skiing trip and a summer jaunt to the Caribbean. He also has a flat in a new Butlins timeshare development in Minehead, Somerset.

[leiafee]

Sooooo who shall we believe then?  The AAIB?... Or the Daily Rag Mirror quoting the local cabby?

Can I have a minute to think about it?

[leiafee]

Just for fun...

Translations for journalists

"approached Heathrow at 200mph" == "approached Heathrow at the normal landing speed"

"a field 500 yards short of the runway." == "the defined and prepared undershoot area"

"managed to keep it airborne" == "glided as they'd been trained to do"


 

Reading reports of aircraft accident in the news really does make me seriously wonder what other headlines they're talking utter bollocks about!

[Rooster Cruiser]

CNN Int'l is reporting today the initial findings of the investigation.  They are saying that according to the Flight Data Recorder, the Autothrottle commanded a power increase 2 miles before the runway, and the engines did NOT respond.  The flight crew then manually advanced the power levers with no response either.

Is there anyway the FADEC computers could lock up like that?  This is weird...

[Rooster Cruiser]

Baradium, I posted before reading your post.  They still aren't ruling out total power loss?  Wouldn't the cabin lights have gone out had that happened?

I tend to discount the idea of thrust reversers automatically engaging in flight.  I think all of today's large aircraft have the thrust reversers tied in to the Squat switch on the landing gear in order to prevent them from engaging if there is no weight on the wheels.  What you suggested is more likely, they got jammed open by dirt and debris once the nacelles made contact with the ground.

Leia, thank you for posting the AAIB initial report.  Just read it.  No mention of total power loss, so I guess it'll take some time to figure out just what went wrong.

[Baradium]

Baradium, I posted before reading your post.  They still aren't ruling out total power loss?  Wouldn't the cabin lights have gone out had that happened?

I tend to discount the idea of thrust reversers automatically engaging in flight.  I think all of today's large aircraft have the thrust reversers tied in to the Squat switch on the landing gear in order to prevent them from engaging if there is no weight on the wheels.  What you suggested is more likely, they got jammed open by dirt and debris once the nacelles made contact with the ground.

Leia, thank you for posting the AAIB initial report.  Just read it.  No mention of total power loss, so I guess it'll take some time to figure out just what went wrong.

Squat switches are fallable.  So I wouldn't automatically discount it, just consider it highly unlikely.

In power failure situations, it could have been localized to a system short that caused a breaker to trip, thus allowing cabin lights to stay on... but again, probobly not too likely that everything up front would die in a way to leave the back on.

[Oddball]

initail report from the AAIB via the BBC news the Boeing 777 suffered power failure at least two miles out, heard that on the way home from work this morning

[Oddball]

saw the news this morning at work the plane was fully configured for landing, it tore the starboard gear off and pushed the port gear through the wing, WIND SHEAR MY A**E!! if it happened about a minute ealier it would of been over central london

Ever considered applying for a job at the AAIB since you usefully and magically know at a glance what can and can't be ruled out as an accident cause.   

and yes i have made enquires about joining the AAIB