Roost Air Lounge => Aviation related topics => Topic started by: Plthijnx on January 27, 2006, 07:10:58 AM
Title: xwind techniques
Post by: Plthijnx on January 27, 2006, 07:10:58 AM
i'm curious. when dealing with a stiff xwind landing, what is your technique? personally i bank and compensate with rudder with a little more than 1.3 x Vso. i was reading an article that frowned upon that because of the cross control stall issue. personally, i don't see a problem with it, as i'm able to stick my landings on the centerline everytime with this method. now i have used the "kick out method" as well, i.e. holding your crab angle with the rudder then at the last moment before the mains touchdown, kick out the crab and bank with aileron at the last second. both work well but i'm more comfortable with the previous mentioned technique. another reason why i ask this is today, well this evening, i landed on a strip that, no bull, is probably less that 25 feet wide with a 15 knot xwind and i had no problem. granted i used all of the runway (it's a shorty too with trees close on the approach end) but alas, no prob. gimme your takes......plt
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: Plthijnx on January 27, 2006, 07:16:10 AM
also, just a pointer. the airport that i landed at is not used very much at all. perhaps one landing a week, if that. ALWAYS fly the runway on such an occasion. you never know what could be on the runway, but do so at a safe, comfortable altitude. in my case i flew the runway at about 100agl and scared off some birds, bigguns too, but you never know.......
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: FlyingBlind on January 27, 2006, 02:07:25 PM
Hmm..i try to steer my parachute downwind and hope for a miralce - though i almost everytime end up in a bush or a tree when xwind comes..
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on January 27, 2006, 06:37:19 PM
Personally, I like the slip method. It works well in Pipers both with and without flaps. Just be sure to carry some speed. 1.3xVso should usually work out. Unfortunately, you can't use that method in Cessnas with flaps. It's a good way to flip on your back.
I think the crab method is too much work. There's no reason to be moving the controls that much so close to the runway, especially when it's gusty (we've had 40 kt gusts the past couple of days) You can set up the slip on final and just hold it till you touchdown, with minor corrections, of course.
You have to ask yourself: Whichever method I use, can I keep a stabilized approach all the way down? Does switching from a crab to a slip count as a stabilized approach?
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: Inept on January 28, 2006, 02:14:27 AM
I too prefer the slip method, when I'm in a piper, but in a Cessna, I've found it to be hard to handle in a gusty X-wind (that could just be poor technique and lack of experience too). There is no right answer to this one, I think. Whether you fly a long sideslip, or crab and kick depends on what plane you're in and what technique you've had more experience with.
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: fireflyr on January 28, 2006, 03:12:38 AM
Guys (and gals), Don't complicate something with a need for formulas---they are fine for teaching primary students during the initial phases but most, if not all here are beyond that stage. If you're not sure about about how the airplane will react to cross controls, go to altitude and find out and when you are comfortable do some cross wind landings I teach a little and my new tail dragger students come to me with all kind of formulas and ideas about the nightmares of crosswind landings. They are not a big deal, just use whatever control pressures are needed to keep the aircraft aligned with the centerline---if you run out of controls and can't keep it aligned you have exceeded the maximum crosswind ability of the airplane and it's time to go to plan "B". Plan "B" may be to land across the runway, land on an upwind taxiway, or use the parking lot, whatever, don't try to solve a variable problem with a fixed formula. Whatever pressures are needed should be used before descending through 200AGL on final, and gives you a nice stable short final with nothing to think about other than to flare and protect your heading on rollout. This, gentle pilots, is only my opinion.
I should also add that in spite of the moniker, INEPT is, in my opinion, exactly right!
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: Inept on January 29, 2006, 03:05:15 AM
We've been discussing fixed wing crosswind technique, but how do the whirleybirds deal with it?
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: Mike on January 29, 2006, 04:51:31 AM
HA HA!!!
Thank you for asking! 90% of the time WE DON'T CARE!! We're not depending on runways or stuff like that. Landing with a crosswind can be a little challenging sometimes but it usually doesn't get you in trouble. You just don't want to be downwind when approaching to land (big no-no)! It'll take too long to get into it... Of course when it comes to mountain flying or off-shore ops for example you really have to know your winds. I sometimes approach in a crosswind on purpose while landing on a mountain so I can turn into the wind and down the hill in case something goes wrong. But that's all commercial stuff. The regular helicopter private pilot doesn't have to worry too much about 1.3xVso and stuff. In fact, they wouldn't even know what V1, Vso, and so on means, only Vne. And there is no cross-controlling issues or wind-blocking-airflow-issues like you guys have.
BUT although crosswind isn't much of an issue, there are tons of other things that can get you in trouble in helicopters...
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: Bruce on January 31, 2006, 07:44:58 PM
Gulfstream Driver, you're right with big flap Cessnas (1953 or later). My 170A can slip all day long with those little flaps, and that's the way I like to handle crosswinds. It's good for short fields too - it will almost fly sideways with that big rudder, and that really slows it down. 8)
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: Sleek-Jet on January 31, 2006, 09:34:11 PM
I don't like to hold the controll pressures all the way down final. And it's disoncerting to passengers (who are probably a little on edge flying in that much wind) to be leaned over and the airplane is getting moved around.
I pick up the proper amount of crab to hold center line on final, then smoothly transition to a slip on short final (1/4 mile or so). If I can't hold centerline, then a go around is in order.
In short, I agree with fireflyr... ;D
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on January 31, 2006, 10:31:37 PM
good point about passengers. Good thing students don't count. :P
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: FlyingBlind on January 31, 2006, 10:38:26 PM
Ah yes....i was just jumping about 4 hours ago....night jump..long live nightvision! I managed to pull the brakes too early and land on my back..oh the bloody pain
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: fireflyr on January 31, 2006, 11:47:56 PM
Seems to me that jumping out of a functioning airplane is just WRONG and to do it at night is------ Well, words fail me!!! If you need that much adrenaline rush to make you happy, you have to be a thrill addict. Seriously, different strokes for different folks but I get the crap scared out of me enough without departing the airplane---while it's flying for God's sake!!!! The skydivers at Davis Ca were telling me they like to jump NAKED on warm summer nights of the full moon---there has to be some painful flapping going at terminal velocity---the well-endowed ladies might be in danger of getting a black eye or something but most guys (me anyway) would not be in any danger because anything that small is considered non-lethal at any speed!
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: Plthijnx on January 31, 2006, 11:59:08 PM
i agree with fire as well (on his post before last) i was just thinking that this would be a great topic for discussion and that perhaps someone could learn from it. fire basically elaborated on what i was saying. as far as the formulas....i'm math illiterate. i carry what airspeed is needed to hold what i have to hold and if that isn't good enough, well then, i go to another airport that is more forgiving to the x-wind.
oh and fire, i'm with ya on the jumps bro!
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: FlyingBlind on February 03, 2006, 11:47:46 AM
Seems to me that jumping out of a functioning airplane is just WRONG and to do it at night is------ Well, words fail me!!! If you need that much adrenaline rush to make you happy, you have to be a thrill addict. Seriously, different strokes for different folks but I get the crap scared out of me enough without departing the airplane---while it's flying for God's sake!!!! The skydivers at Davis Ca were telling me they like to jump NAKED on warm summer nights of the full moon---there has to be some painful flapping going at terminal velocity---the well-endowed ladies might be in danger of getting a black eye or something but most guys (me anyway) would not be in any danger because anything that small is considered non-lethal at any speed!
First of all ,its a army parachuting club :) we have to do nightjumps. Second ,the naked jump ? Been there done that...
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: fireflyr on February 03, 2006, 12:11:09 PM
Okay, Flyingblind, you pinned me to the mat, Sorry I made fun of skydiving but it's darn hard for some of us folks to handle that much excitement.
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: FlyingBlind on February 03, 2006, 07:12:44 PM
None taken mate, No worries - its my hobby and i do it for the sake of fun :) i suggest you try it
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: Mike on February 03, 2006, 07:54:22 PM
None taken mate, No worries - its my hobby and i do it for the sake of fun :) i suggest you try it
I think fireflyer has tried it 3 times already. That's 3 times more than you'll get me to jump out of a plane. I am probably saving this one for my midlife-crisis. If we still have a forum then I'll tell you about it! 8) I guess it comes down to what you're used to again. I am sure there are people who wouldn't wanna fly a Skybastard into a fire either... ;D
So, did anybody find a tower controller or airtraffic controller for the forum yet?
Title: Re: xwind techniques
Post by: fireflyr on February 05, 2006, 04:14:30 PM
None taken mate, No worries - its my hobby and i do it for the sake of fun :) i suggest you try it
I did try it for my 50th birthday. Did an accelerated freefall course, first jump from 13,500, then two more after that including a chute pop in door (instuctor yanked me back in time) quit after 3rd time---TOOOOOOOO much excitement fo me!
