Inflight Entertainment => There I was... => Topic started by: Herk Fixer on September 26, 2006, 02:29:07 PM
Title: Trust, but verify
Post by: Herk Fixer on September 26, 2006, 02:29:07 PM
Hey all,
This is a message I posted last month to the AOPA forum. I think it's a good discussion topic, so I thought I'd share with you as well:
I recently attended an ASF seminar on Emergency Procedures. The speaker put on an excellent program; and the attendence was good. One of the items he touched upon dealt with maintenance issues, specifically mis-rigging of flight controls. The example he used was the Spectrum experimental jet crash from July, where the sidesticks were rigged to produce opposite roll control from what was input. It reminded me of a crash from 1992 in Hot Springs, Arkansas which killed three people....the mechanic accidentally left a half-turn from the aileron cable drums at the yokes, such that the ailerons moved opposite of yoke input. The inspector didn't catch it, and he died along with the two pilots when the airplane rolled and crashed on takeoff.
Before I get hate mail from AMT's: for the record, I've been in maintenance (since 1989..A&P in 1995) far longer than I've been a pilot (since March). It's not my goal to insult good mechanics; rather I hope to save a life by reminding pilots to look and verify proper operation anytime work has been done on a critical system.
Two incidents I have knowledge or involvement with both have 727's as the player. In the first, engine work had been accomplished that required a performance check on all three. With the work completed, the crew came out for a reposition flight. It wasn't until the throttles were advanced for takeoff was it discovered that the stops on the fuel controllers for #2 & #3 engines were safety wired in the part-power position!
In the second, an airline I used to part-time contract with gave me a call one morning to take a look at an airplane that was inbound to KOKC. Apparently they were having "pitot-static problems" of some sort. When the airplane taxied in, I immediately zeroed in on the problem. All of the right side static ports were covered...with speed tape (a no-no)! Overnight in Detroit, maintenance had performed a transponder check. The logbook had been signed off, and the flight engineer didn't see the tape (matched the color of the airplane and wasn't flagged....that's why speed [aluminum] tape is a no-no for static ports...). I don't understand why the crew continued to fly the airplane x-country when it was apparent only half of the pitot-static instruments worked.... With this, and another discovery of poor maintenance, I didn't contract for them any longer!
The bottom line is this...yes, you have to be able to trust your mechanic for work performed on your airplane, but if that work involves a critical component (like flight controls, or engines) take the time to verify the work was done properly!
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: tundra_flier on September 26, 2006, 03:32:26 PM
Quote
One of the items he touched upon dealt with maintenance issues, specifically mis-rigging of flight controls. The example he used was the Spectrum experimental jet crash from July, where the sidesticks were rigged to produce opposite roll control from what was input. It reminded me of a crash from 1992 in Hot Springs, Arkansas which killed three people....the mechanic accidentally left a half-turn from the aileron cable drums at the yokes, such that the ailerons moved opposite of yoke input. The inspector didn't catch it, and he died along with the two pilots when the airplane rolled and crashed on takeoff.
I keep hearing about this exact type of accident, and it keeps baffling me. Even when I was flying Radio control planes we always checked control direction before take-off. Heck, my 150 has that in the checklists 3 times berore takeoff. Is it not possible to see the ailerons from the cockpit of some planes?
Quote
In the second, an airline I used to part-time contract with gave me a call one morning to take a look at an airplane that was inbound to KOKC. Apparently they were having "pitot-static problems" of some sort. When the airplane taxied in, I immediately zeroed in on the problem. All of the right side static ports were covered...with speed tape (a no-no)! Overnight in Detroit, maintenance had performed a transponder check. The logbook had been signed off, and the flight engineer didn't see the tape (matched the color of the airplane and wasn't flagged....that's why speed [aluminum] tape is a no-no for static ports...). I don't understand why the crew continued to fly the airplane x-country when it was apparent only half of the pitot-static instruments worked.... With this, and another discovery of poor maintenance, I didn't contract for them any longer!
You know I've always wondered, what type of preflight inspection is typically done on airliners? I must say I've never seen an airline captain out walking around the plane before a flight. ???
Phil
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: cj5_pilot on September 27, 2006, 01:11:49 AM
Tundra you don't have to worry so much...you're usually helping the mechanic on your plane ;D
Funny we should mention pre-flights. The flying club I belonged to down in Kenai (Alaska Flying Network) had 4 planes at the time. A pair of 152s, a 172 and a 210. Chip the owner felt some of the guys were not taking their time in pre-flight. He challenged all the members to a "pre-flight contest". He took the plane to the maintanence hangar and delibertly made things wrong with it (13 IIRC). He then gave each pilot 3 minutes to preflight. The prizes were 5 hours of flight time, a electronic pocket E6B and 2 hours of flight time. Since I'd recently gotten my license and was hogging as much time as I could, I decided to give it a whirl, hoping to win first or third place.
Now each pilot was given 3 minutes WITHOUT a checklist. Both those were issues for me as I'm something of a slave to the checklist and I generally took a minimum of 20 minutes to preflight. I missed three of the things. IIRC One was a missing cotter key and loose nut on a wheel, one was a missing inspection plate (under the horizontal stabilizer and I was pressed for time) and the one that was totally something I normally wouldn't check (and ain't on the checklist) was that he's switched the covers on the wing tip lights, so they were the opposite color!
I had felt rushed through the entire deal and would NOT have flown the plane had I done an actual preflight that fast (not to mention the short dozen other items I DID find--which did include no POH). Turns out I took second place and one the flight computer. Several guys only noticed 1 or 2 things wrong!
Following up on Herk Fixer: Trust but Verify. Especially if you fly in a flying club with communal aircraft. Just because a plane just came in from a safe flight with another pilot don't mean something's not wrong and you don't need to do your walk around.
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: Baradium on September 27, 2006, 01:42:13 AM
One of the items he touched upon dealt with maintenance issues, specifically mis-rigging of flight controls. The example he used was the Spectrum experimental jet crash from July, where the sidesticks were rigged to produce opposite roll control from what was input. It reminded me of a crash from 1992 in Hot Springs, Arkansas which killed three people....the mechanic accidentally left a half-turn from the aileron cable drums at the yokes, such that the ailerons moved opposite of yoke input. The inspector didn't catch it, and he died along with the two pilots when the airplane rolled and crashed on takeoff.
I keep hearing about this exact type of accident, and it keeps baffling me. Even when I was flying Radio control planes we always checked control direction before take-off. Heck, my 150 has that in the checklists 3 times berore takeoff. Is it not possible to see the ailerons from the cockpit of some planes?
Some aircraft it can be difficult to see all the flight controls from the cockpit. Dont' forget the elevators either. In some airliners, the wings are so far behind the cockpit that you might not be able to see the ailerons (think 727).
Quote
You know I've always wondered, what type of preflight inspection is typically done on airliners? I must say I've never seen an airline captain out walking around the plane before a flight. ???
Phil
The most thorough preflight is done for the first flight of the day, but there is a preflight done before each flight as well. You just probobly don't notice it, also the captain might not be the one to do it (could be the F/O).
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: switchtech on September 27, 2006, 01:56:44 AM
The most thorough preflight is done for the first flight of the day, but there is a preflight done before each flight as well. You just probobly don't notice it, also the captain might not be the one to do it (could be the F/O).
I imagine this happens more often on bad weather days... ;)
My flight instructor always had me re-preflight after even brief stops on cross country flights if the aircraft was ever out of sight (like when getting that $100 burger). You never know when an animal may have decided to get warm in the engine (not that often in South Texas, I'm sure) or when a mischievous kid messed with your plane (let the air out of the tires, put gum over the pitot, etc).
jbs
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: spacer on September 27, 2006, 02:22:37 AM
A kid like that where I worked would likely get a bird-bomb in the keester.
Our flight instructors were assigned to test-fly our birds after any work requiring it. I kept my logbook in my pickup, and the pilots were quite happy to have me along (especially when it was after an engine-swap).
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: tundra_flier on September 27, 2006, 09:04:48 PM
While on the subject of preflights - One of things I've never seen any other pilot do is dip the tanks before a second leg. Especially on a short burger run. This really hit home to me after I was on a Navajo that had to turn back when a fuel cap started leaking. In the Navajo it was pretty visible streaming back from the cap, in a cessna you'd never see it. Not to mention the number of people who think Avgas will make their 4 wheeler or snowmachine faster.
Phil
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on October 02, 2006, 09:07:11 PM
Not to mention the number of people who think Avgas will make their 4 wheeler or snowmachine faster.
No road tax on Avgas. ;)
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: tundra_flier on October 02, 2006, 09:57:40 PM
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No road tax on Avgas.
It's still about a $1 a gallon above auto though. And I have heard of people getting stranded in a village because someone siphoned out all their fuel, and no one would sell them any.
Phil
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on October 03, 2006, 03:43:29 PM
Wow, that's pretty harsh.
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: tundra_flier on October 04, 2006, 11:25:01 PM
Yeah, thank god my little O-200 likes its 87UL. Her new home came with a 250gal fuel tank, so next summer I can get unleaded without road tax too. :)
Phil
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: FB41 on October 05, 2006, 02:23:47 PM
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... or when a mischievous kid messed with your plane (let the air out of the tires, put gum over the pitot, etc).
jbs
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Or some dirtbag steal your $75 (EACH!) gas caps off your Aztec. That happened to me once and I didn't catch it until I was airborne and noticed fuel straming from under the gas cap cover! That broke me of my habit of doing a thorough pre-flight for the first flight and then trusting myself- and others- afterward. Now the plane gets a walk-around if it ever gets out of my sight, regardless of how long!
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: cj5_pilot on October 05, 2006, 07:23:02 PM
Only the gascaps? ;) I lost a whole plane once. ??? I had refueled at Hudson's in Talkeetna and while I was in paying some other pilots pushed it out of the way to fuel up and they pushed it around the corner of the building! I came back and just about had a cardiac arrest! The other guys immediately realized why I was about to freak and pointed me in the right direction. What a heart stopper! I know it sounds funny, but I get nervous when I'm out of sight of the airplane. I ended up tying down at transient and running in to town for a burger. Then I came back did a full preflight and headed back to Palmer then Kenai.
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: spacer on October 08, 2006, 04:33:06 PM
When I drove trucks, I got nervous when I was away from my tractor. Not only was it my rolling home, but it was my ticket back to my hometown. I feel pretty much the same way with an airplane, but without the 'rolling home' aspect. My Freightliner was burglarized once, and about $1200 worth of stuff was stolen (not to mention the window repair). I felt so... violated.
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: chuckar101 on October 11, 2006, 04:23:26 AM
Its quite amazing what people will steal out there and then our reactions. I have had several gas caps stole off my truck. So I went out and bought a locking cap and always check if its there before i leave. Anybody else pick up any little quirks after something has been stolen from them.
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on October 11, 2006, 06:53:27 PM
I forgot to lock my garage one day in Grand Forks. Came down the next morning to find wires hanging out from behind the airbag in my pick-up. Filed a police report and everything, but knew they'd never catch the guy(s). All they took was my nice Mag-Lite and some candy I keep in the glove box for long trips. Got started thinking afterwards that it would have been pretty cool to find some unconcious guy in my front seat with the airbag deployed. Dumb @$$ didn't understand that the airbag and ignition are different systems.
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: TheSoccerMom on October 11, 2006, 10:47:10 PM
That's so awful!!! >:(
It's hard to believe what people can do.. no doubt that going through life like that will end up coming right back to him! Sorry that it happened to you! :(
As to the original thread, "trust but verify", of course as pilots we do what we can to verify everything, within the scope of our abilities, but there are some things we have to take on faith... when an airplane comes out of its inspection and I am going to be in it later that afternoon, at 100 feet above the trees, I am relying on the word of my mechanics, and the incredible skill they have gained over the years. How do I know the internal workings of those engines are "just right" when I take off with new nozzles? I don't, of course. But, I have the grins of the competent people that gave her back to me that morning, to go on.
I appreciate so much about aviation, but I am forever indebted to the fine people who do the maintenance, and receive far fewer kudos than they should. My hat is off to them. |:)\ |:)\ |:)\
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: fireflyr on October 14, 2006, 04:05:19 PM
Its quite amazing what people will steal out there and then our reactions. I have had several gas caps stole off my truck. So I went out and bought a locking cap and always check if its there before i leave. Anybody else pick up any little quirks after something has been stolen from them.
Yeah, like shoving headsets under the seats when I park my airplane---locked or not!
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: Baradium on October 15, 2006, 03:06:36 AM
Yeah, like shoving headsets under the seats when I park my airplane---locked or not!
When I was doing my flight training we'd leave headsets on the dash etc etc.... but we'd never be gone too long. Longest would be if we went to grab some food from a resturant on a cross country... or got stuck sleeping in the FBO due to Wx. We did take the keys with us though...
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: Voidhawk9 on October 15, 2006, 07:16:51 PM
Its quite amazing what people will steal out there and then our reactions. I have had several gas caps stole off my truck. So I went out and bought a locking cap and always check if its there before i leave. Anybody else pick up any little quirks after something has been stolen from them.
Yeah, like shoving headsets under the seats when I park my airplane---locked or not!
After landing and shutting down the other day, I started unhooking my head sets and packing everything back into my flight bag. Then I woke up! Hung the headsets on the yoke, tossed my kneeboard on the dash and left my GPS velcro'ed to the glare shield. Then pushed the plane into the hangar and locked the door. 8) When I was tieing down at international I didn't leave anything of value in the plane. Not even my survival or tool kit.
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: undatc on January 24, 2007, 11:46:56 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a captain do a walk around, but I almost always see the FO doing it. I guess thats the job perks of being an FO. I always feel sorry for the FO's of the DC-9s that fly into GFK when the wind chill is like -70 or so.
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: fireflyr on January 27, 2007, 12:22:02 AM
Don't care who does it just as long as it's done, most major carriers have the FO doin' it but the Captain can excercise his rank to handle it himself--that's why he called "Captain" |:)\
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: Baradium on January 28, 2007, 11:44:30 PM
It veries by company rules. Most companies have preflight listed as a F/O responsibility, but a few have the Captain do it. Generally, it's best not to pull rank to change someone's standard duties. It's frowned upon as it can result in both people thinking the other did the preflight.
It's much more common for the F/O to be doing it than the Captain. Also keep in mind that the most in depth checks only have to be preformed before the first flight of the day.
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: Africaspotter on April 05, 2007, 05:35:16 AM
Well, the Captain is responsible for everything that is going on and he/she has to ensure that the preflight-check on an airliner is done, but he/she can delegate that duty to the SFO or FO.
Regarding "Trust, but verify": We drain our fuel tanks every time before we go on a flight. Leaving our home base in the early morning this seems like a pretty logical thing to do, especially when you keep in mind that the fueler sometimes forgets to refuel your aircraft (we have about ten aircraft and more coming home in the evening at the same time, so it happens that the fueler oversees one). Anyway, when we stop on a cross-country, have a break and get some fuel, we drain again. I never ever noticed something unusual and you would think everything is okay, cause you already drained in the morning and I have often asked me why we have to do that every time again and again. How suprised was I, when I found out on our break that we had quite some water in the one tank today! This really shows that you can not trust something because it seemed to have worked so far, but need to check again every single time...
Cheers,
Felix
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: TheSoccerMom on April 05, 2007, 06:11:03 AM
We firmly believe in the Captain alone being 100% responsible for EVERYTHING associated with each flight. It's one of the first lessons the new jumpers are taught. ;)
I was personally responsible for several dozen jumpers missing the jumpspot last season, including the tree-slammers, and especially the guy who forgot his eyeglasses and smacked into a 7-foot-tall cactus. ::knockedout::
::rofl::
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: FlyboyGil on April 05, 2007, 02:29:49 PM
We firmly believe in the Captain alone being 100% responsible for EVERYTHING associated with each flight. It's one of the first lessons the new jumpers are taught. ;)
I was personally responsible for several dozen jumpers missing the jumpspot last season, including the tree-slammers, and especially the guy who forgot his eyeglasses and smacked into a 7-foot-tall cactus. ::knockedout::
::rofl::
That's quite the prickly situation, isn't it?
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: TheSoccerMom on April 05, 2007, 07:16:17 PM
Boy you got THAT right... sometimes they're still digging out those nasty thorns weeks after they get impaled. It gets ugly! >:(
The guy that forgot his glasses (they were safely packed away in his gear bag but he didn't have time to dig them out before he was in the door), is one of the FUNNIEST people I have ever met. When we saw him again, he was doing a hilarious imitation of himself, under canopy and about 20 feet up, trying to focus on "these kinda dark blobs"... he showed us his wild contortions before landing as he tried to miss all the huge cacti... it was SO funny, even though he really had some bad punctures.
So... anytime things go to hell, they just blame the pilot. Works great!!!!!!!!!!! ::rofl::
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on April 05, 2007, 09:39:39 PM
Well, the Captain is responsible for everything that is going on and he/she has to ensure that the preflight-check on an airliner is done, but he/she can delegate that duty to the SFO or FO.
Regarding "Trust, but verify": We drain our fuel tanks every time before we go on a flight. Leaving our home base in the early morning this seems like a pretty logical thing to do, especially when you keep in mind that the fueler sometimes forgets to refuel your aircraft (we have about ten aircraft and more coming home in the evening at the same time, so it happens that the fueler oversees one). Anyway, when we stop on a cross-country, have a break and get some fuel, we drain again. I never ever noticed something unusual and you would think everything is okay, cause you already drained in the morning and I have often asked me why we have to do that every time again and again. How suprised was I, when I found out on our break that we had quite some water in the one tank today! This really shows that you can not trust something because it seemed to have worked so far, but need to check again every single time...
Cheers,
Felix
I tell my students it takes less than a minute to sump the tanks, so why not do it. I'm a big fan of sumping even if you don't get fuel. You never know when that last hard landing might shake up some water stuck in a pocket somewhere.
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: TheSoccerMom on April 05, 2007, 10:40:04 PM
Heh heh DonYan, now you have me thinking I am part MEXICAN as well!! ::bow:: Gibbo helped me figure out I am part Aussie last night -- my chromosomes suddenly turned a neon pink when he mentioned Crown Lagers. ::bow::
I admit, there've been a few nights of your "therapy" AND I can also vouch it practically GUARANTEES a fire call the next morning....!!! >:D
Of course, I am usually at the Nunnery, deep in meditation and prayer. ["oh please, keep spinning my little turbines, especially down at squirrel-level...."]
::wave::
Title: Re: Trust, but verify
Post by: TheSoccerMom on April 06, 2007, 03:43:51 AM
I couldn't get the Nun to acknowledge me. HA, story of my life!! She obviously knows I am beyond redemption. ::angel::
