Roost Air Lounge => Aviation related topics => Topic started by: Gulfstream Driver on June 13, 2006, 04:18:47 AM
Title: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on June 13, 2006, 04:18:47 AM
I realize this isn't fun, but I have to vent a little bit and also see what you guys think about this.
A week from last Friday, I picked up a student that wanted to finish his private in a week while he was on vacation. He wanted me to meet him at an airport about 50 nm from here. He had about 60 hours in a 172, and only needed 2.5 hours of solo cross-country and 1.1 hours of instrument. What he didn't tell me was that he hadn't flown in a year and a half.
So, he flew into Fargo on Sky West on Friday, put $1000 on his credit card, and we did a lesson on the way to Perham. The lesson went very well, and his landing was almost perfect. Granted, there was no wind, but I didn't see any signs of possible problems. The week dragged on. He was late for almost every lesson. We skipped a couple of days (he wanted to), and had some weather issues. He got frustrated because I wouldn't sign him off for solo. For whatever reason, he couldn't remember the difference between power on and power off stalls, and I felt that I needed to help on every landing. I did sign him off for solo (though maybe I shouldn't have). He then got lost on his solo cross-country, twice.
By the time he finished the cross-country, it was Wednesday. He had a wedding rehearsal dinner Friday night, the wedding on Saturday, and a recovery day on Sunday. So, it was pretty much Friday afternoon or bust for the check ride. We came to my home base for a mock check ride with another instructor, which he would have passed, except for the landings.
Friday, the weather was crappy, so we rescheduled the check ride and just did some cross-wind landings at an airport near his place. He did ok on the first landing, but as soon as we touched down and drifted a little, he went around. He could have saved it, but it was his decision, it was done safely, and I told him that a go-around is never a bad decision. I showed him the next landing, and the next. The winds weren't bad...20 degrees off the runway at 11 gusting to 18. After those three landings, he wanted to try a runway with winds more closely aligned, so we went back to his airport.
The winds were about the same when we got there. He came in stabilized, but quite low. About 50 ft off, he didn't like it and asked me to take it. So, I went around, landed, and we quit. I came home (it was before noon), and I talked with the other instructor about what happened. I came to the decision that I wouldn't sign him off for the check ride.
It's been 3 days since I told him I wouldn't sign him off without more work, and I haven't heard from him. I assume he went home. I told him that he should finish up when he went home, and not wait until next year. I hope he does. I hope I didn't turn him off to aviaiton...I keep thinking about the whole week, trying to figure out if I could have done something different. Any ideas?
I guess this turned into a Frank-type post. This is one of the reasons I haven't been posting as much lately, being busy and all.
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: Roland on June 13, 2006, 05:52:23 AM
Hallo Gulf.
I like your post, really I do. It shows the situation many instructors can and will face. Most I like that finally you look for the problem on your side. That makes you very sympatric and I wish you as my instructor.
To my opinion this bloke went home, swearing about his bad instructor, looking for an other one to finish his PPL. If I read this story I can clearly see this guy in front of me. People like him will never ever see and find the mistakes on their side. They use any and every excuse to shift the fault away from them. He will not finish his PPL this year. He is far to inconsequent about this. Coming late, having not time, having no skills, all this are clear signs about his approach to his problem. HE wanted to finish his PPL!
If I was you I would not think about this guy any longer. At all! You’ve done the most you could and finally saved his life. Well done, Golf, and I mean it. |:)\
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: happylanding on June 13, 2006, 08:12:42 AM
You should not worry, Gulfstream, You did the right choice. |:)\
You're the first person who must be sure that the student is able to cope with the entire flight, that's your responsibility and it's different from granting a person to go to the exam in a blink of the eyes after a 1 1/2 year he isn't flying: your student should have accepted that he eventually could not have been ready and it’s not an instructor’s fault, if it happens! On the contrary, it’s an instructor duty not to let it happen. And it’s a student’s duty (and proof of intelligence) to understand it. Your student did not seem confident at all during approach and landing (and heck, they can be quite dangerous moments and you can’t avoid them :) and it’s better not to)...
I was just wondering, take it as an idea.......
you said that at every landing you felt as you had to help....isn't it that he got aligned to the centerline, right on the glide, and as soon as he reached the gate he was "freezing" (because, for example, he was not looking at the end of the rwy, but say "crossing his fingers" and waiting for the ground? I do not know how to explain in a better way. but it happened to me once, I was not flying from a long time since I had been ill. the instructor I had could not understand that something was wrong, but I felt it and told him that every landing was......"strange" and I felt I was losing confidence in myself. Actually, I think that the instructor can't see anything strange (at best he can feel it), and as student you just feel that something is strange but you attach it to the fact it's a lot of time you're not flying. But the truth is that as soon as I did not have the arrow I had aimed at to land anymore in sight, I just waited, hoping to flare at the right moment but ignoring when the right moment was. this makes you crazy, because every flight becomes attached to a landing that will be felt as pure luck.....Okay. I presume it could happen also before. You do not aim at any point, but the entire rwy while on glide....
Enough. See if this post can be useful, I tried to give you a point of view. :)
Again, I applaud your choice! |:)\
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: fireflyr on June 13, 2006, 09:11:28 AM
GOOD JOB DUDE! |:)\ It sounds like the guy has an attitude problem which compounds any other difficulties in the cockpit. Looks to me like you saved some lives (hacks often travel in groups), maybe he'll discover that HE has to take responibility for his own progress or lack thereof!
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on June 14, 2006, 04:24:13 AM
Thanks, guys and gal! |:)\
His approaches weren't bad. Stabilized, a little bit below glide slope on the VASI's, but we were never in danger of hitting anything. He said that was how his old instructor taught him to approach. I'm pretty sure his instructor never told him to pancake or wheelbarrow it, though, which is what he was doing pretty consistently.
I think I'll take Roland's advice and not worry about this anymore (though I wasn't losing sleep over it ;) ).
Maybe we can use this as a teachable moment for the students and would be pilots in here. Instructors are people, too. :D
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: leiafee on June 14, 2006, 05:37:54 PM
Interesting post.
I've herd plenty of students wail and gnash their teeth over bolshy instructors, but it seems to be the lot in life of instructors to have to grin and bear it!
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: Mike on June 14, 2006, 06:07:36 PM
You totally did the right thing. As far as I am concerned, this guy is not cut out to fly. Clearly he's lacking the commitment.
I am not a big fan of people pressuring me to sign them off in a week and then show up late for training and/or have other commitments come up every time. You don't want somebody like that mess up your reputation as an instructor in front of the examiner and the FAA and, like Roland said, you probably saved some lives.
Imagine he got his license, then doesn't fly for a year, and then takes his wife up for a spin.... :-\
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: Ted_Stryker on June 14, 2006, 10:38:47 PM
Absolutely the right thing in not signing off on the guy!
There was a fellow with a similar attitude that tried to get through the FBO I fly through, and they told him Find someone else that will sign your suicide pact, we're not going to do it! (not their exact words, but close to it).
In another case, a student with a poor attitude managed to get his ticket from an FBO, went out and rented a plane that he had been flying, then, with himself, his wife, and another couple they were friends with, got up into MVFR and the guy stalled it out in the pattern over Howell Island (which one passes over on 8L/26R at KSUS in the pattern), and got all four aboard killed one week after his PPL was issued. I mean the ink was barely dry!
Never let any student make the choice for you. After all, the FAA, NTSB, and other agencies will end up looking at you as an instructor to find out if you signed someone off that wasn't truly ready. And lawyers will eat you alive if they get even a faintest whiff of something off kilter for a civil suit.
As a pilot, I also have to say a sincere THANK YOU to you for helping keep the airspace SAFE too... not just because he could have killed himself, or others on a plane, but also those on the ground, and other aircraft out there as well.
Good job!!!! |:)\ |:)\ |:)\
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on June 15, 2006, 12:14:34 AM
Well, I'm glad everyone is pleased with my decision.
To be fair you don't get to hear his side, but I don't think the outcome would end differently.
I think if my student ended up making a bad decision and crashing, I wouldn't be able to teach anymore. I'd feel horrible, not to mention the civil actions.
I hope I didn't turn this guy off of aviation. I think he'd be a decent pilot if he gets his act together. He bought a new RV-10 kit, which is still in pieces. Even though he's an engineer, I could definitely see him taking a couple of years to finish it, then blasting off and crashing. But, he also seemed fairly cautious about taking chances. It's hard to say...
What's "bolshy" mean, btw?
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: Mike on June 15, 2006, 12:21:01 AM
I think he'd be a decent pilot if he gets his act together.
You can always sign him off when that happens. I don't think you turned him off of aviation. If he can't handle this he's not fit for it. It's part of being an aviator. My fixed wing instructor had me go on one extra X/C since I messed one up (radio procedures). I was bummed, but look at me now! ;)
I found that, in general, engineers are very hard to teach along with doctors and lawyers. So, no sweat...
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on June 15, 2006, 04:23:40 AM
He asked what the error is on the VOR needle and said that he heard it was 2 degrees...Then he asked how you know if you're on course if the needle is that far off. By this time, I was frustrated, and I either never learned or don't remember the error on the VOR needle. All I could think of to say was if the needle's in the center of the head, you're on course. I couldn't seem to fathom why he was asking or why it was important. Maybe he was trying to ask about VOR checks...I dunno.
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: leiafee on June 16, 2006, 10:45:34 PM
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: fliboye on June 17, 2006, 11:04:12 AM
either had to be a lawyer or a doctor because they know everything after 1500 hrs of dual given I applaud the decision sometimes there are those who can do it, and those who think they can don't be afraid to let them scare themselves silly(break em down) then they will listen and learn. I hope, I have had several students who thought they were going to teach me how to fly, boy did they ever!!!! but such is how we learn we flex to the situation at hand and adapt. good show man. ;)
ps. its only crappy till you get a good student then it is fun again this could be the next lesson.
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: denny on July 05, 2006, 05:31:33 PM
Hmm, the part about "must be a doctor" struck a nerve... I am a physician.. I fly - for some 60+ years now... I spoze the ol lawyer/doctor's are incompetent pilots must have enough examples to make it something every one knows... But the shoe doesn't fit everyone...
On the student described, I suspect he is less likely to be a professional, rather he owns his own business, probably in the house construction field, or some gas stations, etc.... He is used to giving orders and having them followed... He is impatient, time driven, and goal oriented and that trait helps him succeed in business... In any event the instructor did what he could... THe next step is up to the student...
denny
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: Mike on July 05, 2006, 08:12:57 PM
Good point Denny!!
(nice to meet you by the way!!!)
You're totally right, not every doctor is the same. In my post I was merely pointing out that certain types of individuals are harder to teach than others... And I am a firm believer that certain type of people tend to bunch up in certain fields.
Professional Pilots are definetly a different bunch of people!! ;D Chuck, is that you?! ;)
For example, I never believed in signs much until I read about mine, the Skorpion. In this book it said that you can find most skorpions in the following profession: Police Officer, Pilot, Soldier, and Firefighter. ...and here I struck out with three out of four.....
Interesting, huh?!
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: fliboye on July 06, 2006, 12:59:01 AM
did not mean to strike a nerve but to say in my years of being a CFI (certified ******** idiot) i have had to teach each person as an individual and adapt to that. My dad was a Lawyer and flew for 60+ years also so enuff said I like all pilots and have fun learing from them as I teach them. Each lesson I become a more intuitive instructor.
Blue skies and great landings
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: Gulfstream Driver on July 06, 2006, 03:04:35 AM
On the student described, I suspect he is less likely to be a professional, rather he owns his own business, probably in the house construction field, or some gas stations, etc.... He is used to giving orders and having them followed... He is impatient, time driven, and goal oriented and that trait helps him succeed in business... In any event the instructor did what he could... THe next step is up to the student...
Actually, he works for Northrup Grumman. Supposedly, he helped design part of the weapons system for the Predator. The rest of the description was pretty accurate, though. ;)
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: braunpilot on July 14, 2006, 08:20:05 PM
Where I instruct there is a student that is working towards his instrument rating. He will be on his 6th grad ride flight very soon. What you should ask yourself is if you really want and student/pilot that ends up like this. It doesn't matter if he could get through the rest of the flight all that matters is that he cannot make the cut. The student where I work every flight, descends below MDA/DA no matter what and then cannot track an NDB, I haven't flown one in years anyways but is never mentally there. If it comes to a head you are putting your certificate on the line saying that he can fly. I agree though, there are some people that think just because they flew 3 years ago that they still know how to put the aircraft where they need it to be.
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: FlyingBlind on July 14, 2006, 08:55:34 PM
Completely right decision! |:)\ I see nothing wrong in your decision!
Title: Re: The Crappy Part of Instructing
Post by: happylanding on July 14, 2006, 09:35:41 PM
welcome to the forum Braunpilot! do not forget to check into the forum! :)
