Roost Air Lounge => Aviation related topics => Topic started by: G-man on September 04, 2008, 08:03:55 PM
Title: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: G-man on September 04, 2008, 08:03:55 PM
This has been around but still a great read!
Helicopter pilots are just better than fixed wing pilots.
This has been a serious debate for quite some time with battle lines well drawn and the debate field hot, furious, and emotional. Obviously, the heat of the debate and the surety of the participants are directly proportional to the amount of liquid intelligence that has been consumed. Nevertheless, this humble observer will present the evidence that clearly proves helicopter pilots are, as a matter of fact, the most superior pilots in the aviation community.
First, let's talk about the numbers.
Airplanes have a lot of numbers, V1, V2, VTOSS, MMO, the figures many helicopter operations emulate. However, while helicopter pilots try to operate "by the numbers," the operating environment often precludes such a luxury. The 757 pilot is going to come over the fence at Vref +15 knots or some other such number like that. Meanwhile, the helicopter lands on a rig, perhaps with a 30 Knots head wind, a 15 Knots crosswind, or maybe he has to land in a remote area with no wind ... and he will LAND AT ZERO GROUND SPEED! If you know anything about aerodynamics, I shouldn't have to say anything else -- the safety of the numbers does not always grace the helicopter pilot therefore, they need special skill to compensate when the numbers are not even applicable. The rotorhead may be landing at 40 Knots IAS or 0 Knots ... airplane safety margins are all off!
Not convinced, let's talk operating environment.
It would be nice to be able to land on a flat piece of paved real estate that was 200' wide and 8000' long, for every landing; but for helicopter pilots, that's the exception rather than the rule (We are even told to "avoid the flow" of the starch wingers lest we upset their "numbers.").
Helicopter pilots are called to land on small offshore platforms, smaller shipboard platforms (that can be bobbing and weaving like Mike Tyson), rooftops, forests, jungles, and next to highway at night to pick up the injured. This is a VFR operation that would make most airplane pilots cringe. This goes beyond those fixed wingers who call themselves "bush pilots." Helicopter pilots are the true Bush Pilots - they land and takeoff in the midst of the bushes! To this, the helicopter pilot adds all the stuff the corporate or 121 operator does. They operate in dense airspace, fly instrument approaches, operate at busy airports, and fly in severe weather; often without the help of a four-axis autopilot with "autotrim." (In fact, the only autopilot may be control friction ... and any objective dual-rated pilots will confess the helicopter is quite a bit more difficult to fly on the gauges!)
At this point I have to interject for the prima donna part 91 operators in their Citation X's, Gulfstreams, and Falcon 50's. Yes, Veronica, there are a lot of helicopters with color radar, multiple MFDs, EFIS, digital fuel controls, 4 axis autopilots, and all the other goodies, so don't go there! We can operate your fancy equipment as well!
I'm not done -- what about workload?
The helicopter pilot is normally the "company man" on the job. Therefore, they must not only be able to fly the aircraft, they have to be the local PR man with the customer, often solving the customer's problems so the aircraft is used the most efficiently. The helicopter pilot might have to arrange for his own fuel and even refuel his own aircraft. He checks the landing sites, trains people how to work around helicopters without getting injured, and makes sure the aircraft does not disturb Grandma Bessie's chickens!
But wait, like the Ginsu knife, "there's more!"
The rotor head does it all. He does all the preflight planning, submits the flight plan, prepares all the paperwork including the weight and balance, loads and briefs the passengers, loads cargo, and after landing takes care of the unloading and finally arranges for their own transportation and room. This is often interspersed by telephone calls to some company weenie that changes plans and expectations every hour.
Finally, the all important question, "What about control touch?"
I want to shut up all the hotshot fighter pilots. I've been in their aircraft and they have been in mine ... I could fly theirs but they were all over the sky in mine! So then, Mr., Starch winger; when you see a Hughes 500 or Bell 204 pilot hold one skid on a 5000' knife edge ridge that is only 2 feet wide so passengers can step out onto the ridge, while the other skid is suspended in space ... when you watch a Skycrane, Vertol, S61, 212, or 214B pilot place a hook, that's on a cable 200' below the aircraft, in the hand of a ground crewman ... when you see a Lama, AStar, or Bell 206L land in a space in the trees that's scarcely bigger than the helicopter ... and if you ever watch a BK 117, 105, or A109 pilot land in a vacant lot next to a busy freeway surrounded by power lines - at night. Well, then, you'll have some idea who is the master manipulator of aviation equipment.
The bottom line is:
If all you want is to get into the air, find a Cessna, Beech, F-16, or 757. However, if you want to truly fly, to be an artisan in aviation and develop a birdlike control touch; then, you want to be a helicopter pilot. After all, a rock would probably fly if you made it go 180 knots.
The real question for our fixed wing brethren should be:
"How fast can you fly backward?"
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: airtac on September 05, 2008, 03:52:25 AM
"YAWN" ::wave::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Oddball on September 05, 2008, 07:07:02 AM
::thinking:: Yeah but..........................ah stuff it who fancies a pint? ::drinking::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Fabo on September 05, 2008, 10:42:29 AM
I certainly do! ;D
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on September 05, 2008, 04:34:17 PM
I cannot fault your logic, G-man. However, at the risk of repeating myself, I'll again mention the motto of AAP members: "Give me another beer, I don't give a Sh!t" ;D >:D |:)\ ::bow::
Now, if someone wants to plunk down about $45K on me so I can get my rotor-wing ratings, I'll happily come over to the Dark Side! ::whistle::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Mike on September 05, 2008, 04:44:59 PM
... a little rough on the fixed wing crowd but . . .
HELICOPTERS ROCK !!!! ::wave::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: G-man on September 05, 2008, 04:46:31 PM
I cannot fault your logic, G-man. However, at the risk of repeating myself, I'll again mention the motto of AAP members: "Give me another beer, I don't give a Sh!t" ;D >:D |:)\ ::bow:: Now, if someone wants to plunk down about $45K on me so I can get my rotor-wing ratings, I'll happily come over to the Dark Side! ::whistle::
I really do agree with you--I was just stirring the shit without really giving a shit.. ::whistle:: ::whistle::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: TheSoccerMom on September 06, 2008, 05:08:58 AM
DAMMIT, Gordy, will you at least post a WARNING when you share these little gems with us.... that one with the Fatherly Advice just made me snort root beer out my nose.... DAMMIT man!!!!!!!!!!!! ::rofl:: ::silly:: ::loony:: :D
And, as for all that fancy talk about heli pilots..... ::thinking::
Hmm-mm.... remember the one about:
"What's long and hard on a helicopter pilot??!??"
Answer: "Third grade........."
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;) ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: G-man on September 06, 2008, 05:57:04 AM
See..now THAT is a classic--and so true--more than you know.. ::whistle:: ::whistle::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Chopper Doc on September 10, 2008, 05:24:34 AM
I, for one, agree wholeheartedly with Gordy: chopper pilots are the superior member of the pilot species.
However, it has been said by others much wiser and smarter than me that you can teach a chimp to ride a bike, but he's screwed if the chain falls off.
Engineers (or, in the States, A&P mechs), are the ones who can put the "chain" back together for you "chimps".
Nice pilot, wanna banana?
/Doc drops, rolls, and prepares to return fire....
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: TheSoccerMom on September 10, 2008, 07:03:52 AM
You may think "chopper" pilots are "superior", but I can certainly vouch that they don't all come with BRAIN cells included.... ::whistle:: ::whistle::
I wish I was joking...... but... I am not.... >:( >:(
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: TheSoccerMom on September 10, 2008, 07:04:52 AM
Of course............
NEITHER do the fixed-wing do-dos.............. :D
:D
:D
:D
;D
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Oddball on September 10, 2008, 10:26:28 AM
Dont worry doc i have your back against all the "chimps" in here ::rambo:: (any jobs going for a young mech looking for experience?)
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: airtac on September 10, 2008, 02:26:27 PM
If you children can't get along and play nicely Daddy Airtac will ask you to put your toys away and go to your rooms for a long time-out. ::complaining: ::rambo::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Oddball on September 10, 2008, 03:42:01 PM
::eek:: ::unbelieveable:: thats not fair daddy airtac they started it ::sulk:: ::sulk:: ::rofl:: ::rofl::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: TheSoccerMom on September 10, 2008, 07:05:36 PM
Yeah, yeah, it's a JOKE!!!!!!!!! :o
Just like the HELICOPTER pilot I lived with for 10 years..... :D :D
My point was, from personal experience, there ARE helicopter pilots out there with WAY MORE flight hours, than BRAIN CELLS............ ::loony:: ::rofl::
Which is why we got along in the first place, I know, I know.......... ::silly::
::rofl::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on September 11, 2008, 01:56:32 AM
<yawn>
I'll repeat myself again... Gimme another beer, etc. ;D ::loony:: ::drinking::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Mitchell99 on September 11, 2008, 10:38:44 PM
OK… I have got to post this in the fixed wing school across the airport and watch the building explode! ::rambo:: ::rambo:: ::rambo:: ::whistle::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Frank N. O. on September 11, 2008, 11:00:08 PM
You don't have to do any balance calculations with a helicopter at all? That sounds exagerated (or are you just making a joke?). I would say though that getting a ride in a helicopter is on my things-to-do-before-I-die-list, even before getting my first date/kiss. Sadly however, none of the above seems to be in the cards anytime soon :(
Frank
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Ragwing on September 13, 2008, 01:39:50 PM
You don't have to do any balance calculations with a helicopter at all? That sounds exaggerated (or are you just making a joke?).
Frank, don't let them pull your leg too much. Of course you have to run weight and balance calculations. Front to back just like a fixed wing AND left to right. Just think of trying to lift and your left side has too much weight: Your right skid is up in the air, but your left is still stuck on the ground ::unbelieveable:: The R22 POH has a minimum pilot weight requirement. We have to sandbag a few gals to get their weight up. (put the sandbag under her seat).
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: G-man on September 13, 2008, 03:54:03 PM
Of course you have to run weight and balance calculations.
I have not done a weight and balance calculation on a helicopter in about 9 or 10 years. They are pretty much there to give examiners something to test you on. Just for shits and giggles--take an R-22 POH and see if you can load it OUT of CG. You have to abide by the limitations though---170lbs etc. Same with a Jet Ranger--it is almost impossible to get it out of CG. With the left seat PIC Astar with front bench seats, you CAN get it out of longitudinal, but only by using seat-belt extenders on the 2 front pax ::eek:: The Longranger--as long as you abide by the POH and use the recommended "selective seating", and don't load up the baggage compartment with out people in front--again almost impossible.
Hence it makes it easy--kind of "3rd grade" as ,mom says.. ::whistle:: ::whistle:: That's why all the gauges have colors--so that you can glance at them with out having to read the actual numbers. I had an FAA document once--since lost it, that states you do NOT need to recite number parameters on check rides.
My motto--KISS
I do however complete a "Load Calc" every day for the FS. It is a form which works out your allowable HIGE/HOGE payload for expected altitude/temp ranges.
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Mike on September 13, 2008, 04:32:51 PM
The Longranger--as long as you abide by the POH and use the recommended "selective seating", and don't load up the baggage compartment with out people in front--again almost impossible.
That one is important though !! I mean, you're right, you don't have to calculate it because it's common sense but I had a crew get out once and "forget" all their equipment in the back . . . woah!! almost took off backwards!! ::eek:: I am a pretty skinny guy in the front on top of that.... One time I flew with two heavy guys up front in a schweizer 300 . . . couldn't hover, only go forward slowly. Got my attention also (was my younger days when I did things I don do no more...)
But the AStar, what a machine. Can't even out-cg it with the basket on one side (sticking out 2 ft from the side of the aircraft which gives it an even longer arm), FULLY LOADED! (200lbs) and nothing to counterbalance... |:)\
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: G-man on September 13, 2008, 04:47:15 PM
The Longranger--as long as you abide by the POH and use the recommended "selective seating", and don't load up the baggage compartment with out people in front--again almost impossible.
That one is important though !! I mean, you're right, you don't have to calculate it because it's common sense but I had a crew get out once and "forget" all their equipment in the back . . . woah!! almost took off backwards!! ::eek::
Yep--I have to remind them on helispots NOT to automatically put the baggage in the back compartment.
In Hawaii though, with the bench seat up front and the "midwestern beef eatin ho's" you have to watch the weight up front--pretty much once you had more than 450lbs in the front pax seats you needed counter weight in the baggage. And YEP, been there done that--however the "given weight" for 90% of women in the US is 130lbs. We had a little test for them though---made them sit in the plastic chairs on our deck--if the chair came up with their ass when they stood up---they were at least 230lbs. ::whistle:: ::whistle::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: G-man on September 14, 2008, 10:47:11 PM
How do you know if you're talking to a Helicopter Pilot?
He'll tell you
How do you know if you're talking to an Airline Pilot?
His trophy wife will tell you..
what's the difference between god and a helicopter pilot?
God won't tell you he is a helicopter pilot!!!
What does a helicopter pilot use for contraception?
His personality.
And what does an Airline pilot use for a personality?
His Income!
And finally for this iteration:
A woman runs into a Police station Yelling and screaming!! The desk sergeant asks whats the Problem? She says I've just been raped by an helicopter Pilot!!!
Police say, How do you know he was an helicopter Pilot ?
She says well! he had a Big watch, a small Dick and he wouldn't stop talking about himself.....
And who says we cant laugh at ourselves---why not--everyone else is.. ::whistle:: ::whistle::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on September 16, 2008, 05:47:40 AM
Quote
She says well! he had a Big watch, a small Dick and he wouldn't stop talking about himself.....
And you guys are trying to lure me over to the "Dark Side" with talk like that!?!? ::thinking:: ::) :o I'm thinking I wouldn't qualify on at least two of those three! ::whistle::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Skid Kid on September 16, 2008, 05:17:44 PM
I'm in agreement with Oddball and Chopper Doc... the silly stick wigglers ain't got nothin on us mechanics! Stuck wing or fling wing? I dunno, I've met the worst egos of both groups (fighter pilots and attack chopper pilots), and I can't tell which is bigger. Can't complain too much 'cause as long as pilots keep breaking aircraft, I'll still have a job.
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Jean Loup on September 16, 2008, 06:05:04 PM
::knockedout:: the "who is better" boring theme...one question is borne by my rotary wing ignorance: Do Helicopters have an auto-pilot, like fixed wing's have??? |:)\ thank you ::wave:: donYan
P.S.- |:)\ Gliders must be better, since they assist the ISS ::thinking:: ...no rotary wings out there!!! ::sulk:: ...yet... ::complaining:
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Jean Loup on September 16, 2008, 06:12:17 PM
I'm in agreement with Oddball and Chopper Doc... the silly stick wigglers ain't got nothin on us mechanics! Stuck wing or fling wing? I dunno, I've met the worst egos of both groups (fighter pilots and attack chopper pilots), and I can't tell which is bigger. Can't complain too much 'cause as long as pilots keep breaking aircraft, I'll still have a job.
forgive for intruding...but, isn't WEAR what brakes more aircraft than pilots do ??? No pilot that I know, nor us Skydivers do what we do, to commit suicide!!!...much LESS brake an expensive tool... ::thinking:: donYan |:)\ (back-country mechanic)
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Jean Loup on September 16, 2008, 06:25:14 PM
forgive for intruding...but, isn't WEAR what brakes more aircraft than pilots do ???
Yes, wear and tear account for roughly 60% of our unscheduled maintenance, however the other 40% is human error, both the maintainer's and pilot's. Then again, I work in a weird little sideshow of aviation where we have airframes and rebuilt parts that have a ridiculous amount of hours put on them being used and abused by mechanics and pilots who just got certified.
As for autopilots, some do, but most just have a stability control system to counteract outside forces (wing gusts, etc) of varying degrees of complexity. The simplest ones being a stabilization bar that uses the gyroscopic effects of weights spinning around and around to dampen oscillations. More complex varieties use electronic and hydraulic systems to keep the helicopter pointed in the same direction at the same altitude, but the effect is more like a trim system than a true autopilot.
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Jean Loup on September 17, 2008, 05:12:21 PM
forgive for intruding...but, isn't WEAR what brakes more aircraft than pilots do ???
Yes, wear and tear account for roughly 60% of our unscheduled maintenance, however the other 40% is human error, both the maintainer's and pilot's. Then again, I work in a weird little sideshow of aviation where we have airframes and rebuilt parts that have a ridiculous amount of hours put on them being used and abused by mechanics and pilots who just got certified.
As for autopilots, some do, but most just have a stability control system to counteract outside forces (wing gusts, etc) of varying degrees of complexity. The simplest ones being a stabilization bar that uses the gyroscopic effects of weights spinning around and around to dampen oscillations. More complex varieties use electronic and hydraulic systems to keep the helicopter pointed in the same direction at the same altitude, but the effect is more like a trim system than a true autopilot.
I hope the blades are new...I remember hely rotor blades had a life span of 40 flight hours...before "fatigue" hit them! Here in México, a french Puma (well...we know the french!) colapsed at touch down because blades disintegrated! ::knockedout:: Next to President's Fox Puma... ::whistle:: SkidKid, thanks for autopilot info! |:)\ donyan ::wave::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Chopper Doc on October 01, 2008, 03:50:58 PM
There are heli's with auto pilots, as well as the SCAS equipped types as described by SkidKid.
SCAS machines (like the Bell 214S) use a flight control system to stabilize the machine, the pilot's job being to unstabilize it. In the 214 the SCAS cannot be turned doff; if it is the machine is uncontrollable and therefore unflyable. An early operator of the type lost one of the first machines trying to see what would happen if they did turn the system off - TSB and Bell then lost another trying to recreate the accident. Turns out the gyros in the SCAS take some time to spool up, and the system will not come on line until they are stable. During that time the helicopter apparently crashes.
Autopilot equipped machines can have three or four axis systems - the three axis (yaw, pitch and roll) are similar to simple fixed wing systems; they will maintain the flight attitude at the time of engagement and can accept NAV inputs to adjust for steerage or waypoint course changes; four-axis systems include the collective (power) control and can translate from ground to hover to flight and back. The most advanced four-axis systems, like the Bell 412SAR version, can fly a programmed course from takeoff to landing without any pilot input. When in a hover just off the ground, you can push on a skid tube and the machine will push back at you to maintain position - stop pushing and the machine instantly stops to maintain position. The SAR machines can also perform a Man Over Board maneuver: the pilot overflys a spot on the surface, even the surface of a moving body of water like storm-tossed seas, hits the MOB button, and lets the helicopter take over. With inputs from GPS, RNAV, RadAlt, and air data computers, the AFCS will fly the machine around in a circle into a stable hover into wind in a position 200 yards downwind and fifteen degrees right of the nose from the projected drift position of the MOB. From that position the winch operator can modify the hover position from his station in the right-aft side pocket using his own set of controls.
All this black magic is made more incredible when you consider that helicopters are inherently unstable: every control displacement has to be countered by the pilot (or AFCS) once the desired attitude is reached or the aircraft will quickly drop out of the sky. The best analogy is the marble and bowl one: invert a bowl and place a marble on top, and then displace the marble from it's balance point at the exact center of the bowl. The marble accelerates in the direction of displacement and drops off the bowl: this is a demonstration of negative stability and illustrates how helicopters work. Now place the bowl right side up and place the marble in the center again. Displace the marble and it will oscillate in decreasing amplitude until it reaches a stable position in the middle again: this is positive stability and illustrates how fixed wing aircraft work.
The newest generation of AutoFlight Control Systems use ring-laser or other solid state gyro technologies, so they virtually eliminate precession as well as the startup lag. They are also more sensitive and faster to respond than the old inertial systems.
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Jean Loup on October 03, 2008, 03:15:07 PM
There are heli's with auto pilots, as well as the SCAS equipped types as described by SkidKid.
SCAS machines (like the Bell 214S) use a flight control system to stabilize the machine, the pilot's job being to unstabilize it. In the 214 the SCAS cannot be turned doff; if it is the machine is uncontrollable and therefore unflyable. An early operator of the type lost one of the first machines trying to see what would happen if they did turn the system off - TSB and Bell then lost another trying to recreate the accident. Turns out the gyros in the SCAS take some time to spool up, and the system will not come on line until they are stable. During that time the helicopter apparently crashes.
Autopilot equipped machines can have three or four axis systems - the three axis (yaw, pitch and roll) are similar to simple fixed wing systems; they will maintain the flight attitude at the time of engagement and can accept NAV inputs to adjust for steerage or waypoint course changes; four-axis systems include the collective (power) control and can translate from ground to hover to flight and back. The most advanced four-axis systems, like the Bell 412SAR version, can fly a programmed course from takeoff to landing without any pilot input. When in a hover just off the ground, you can push on a skid tube and the machine will push back at you to maintain position - stop pushing and the machine instantly stops to maintain position. The SAR machines can also perform a Man Over Board maneuver: the pilot overflys a spot on the surface, even the surface of a moving body of water like storm-tossed seas, hits the MOB button, and lets the helicopter take over. With inputs from GPS, RNAV, RadAlt, and air data computers, the AFCS will fly the machine around in a circle into a stable hover into wind in a position 200 yards downwind and fifteen degrees right of the nose from the projected drift position of the MOB. From that position the winch operator can modify the hover position from his station in the right-aft side pocket using his own set of controls.
All this black magic is made more incredible when you consider that helicopters are inherently unstable: every control displacement has to be countered by the pilot (or AFCS) once the desired attitude is reached or the aircraft will quickly drop out of the sky. The best analogy is the marble and bowl one: invert a bowl and place a marble on top, and then displace the marble from it's balance point at the exact center of the bowl. The marble accelerates in the direction of displacement and drops off the bowl: this is a demonstration of negative stability and illustrates how helicopters work. Now place the bowl right side up and place the marble in the center again. Displace the marble and it will oscillate in decreasing amplitude until it reaches a stable position in the middle again: this is positive stability and illustrates how fixed wing aircraft work.
The newest generation of AutoFlight Control Systems use ring-laser or other solid state gyro technologies, so they virtually eliminate precession as well as the startup lag. They are also more sensitive and faster to respond than the old inertial systems.
Thank you for a very elaborate & ilustrative answer |:)\ you earned well the ChopperDoc name ::bow:: The bowl example is tops !!! ::wave::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Chopper Doc on October 04, 2008, 01:20:14 AM
Thanks. I've had lots of practice explaining rotary-wing theory of fight; the bowl is the best illustration of stability I've found.
The bowl/instability illustration, with it's obvious demonstration of the pilot's workload, also explains the purpose of the main rotor: it's there to keep the pilot cool. If it stops, the pilot really starts to sweat.
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on October 04, 2008, 06:31:34 AM
Quote
I've had lots of practice explaining rotary-wing theory of fight;
I too have had lots of practice explaining rotary-wing flight, but it boils down to just three basics;
1) A Helicopter is so ugly the Earth repels it.
2) Anything described as 1500 parts trying to shake themselves apart is inherently untrustable.
3) Any aircraft whose wing moves faster than its fuselage is by definition rotary wing, inherently unstable, and therefore untrustable.
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Chopper Doc on October 04, 2008, 03:02:47 PM
Actually, Rooster, it's closer to 15,000 parts - all flying in close formation. Independent maneuvers not approved.
Ugly and unstable? Maybe, but you never send a stiff-wing out into the boonies to recover a downed helicopter. Ever try to rappel out of a welded-wing? How about speeding a car-accident victim direct from the scene to the ER doctors without concern for traffic delays?
You know, Rooster, in the right light those fling-wings are downright beautiful.
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Oddball on October 04, 2008, 03:58:24 PM
15,000 loose parts flying in loose formation? ::thinking:: are yousure you are talking about h*l*c*p*e*s or a Avro Shackelton? lol
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: TheSoccerMom on October 04, 2008, 09:03:04 PM
Sounds kinda like my old cars and trucks.... though, most of those loose parts just fell off on the way to the airport. :D
but you never send a stiff-wing out into the boonies to recover a downed helicopter.
Well, the chances of that happening are about as miniscule as can be, BUT....
I do know of a light helicopter that crashed on approach to a horrid jungle strip, so they sent out a heavy helicopter to pick up the stranded crew....
The second machine crashed on TOP OF the first one, due to the rotten down air where the cliff dropped off....
Hmmm, now there were TWO crews calling for pickup on the radio.....
And, hard as it may be to imagine, the rescue came from a trusty Twin Otter.... the pilot had his choice of any machine in the inventory (light to heavy fixed- AND rotary-wing -- he was current, and highly skilled in ALL of them), and he took the Otter in.... planted it just past the heap of wreckage in a super-short landing, and flew both crews out.
So, yeah, it isn't the norm, but it HAS happened, and I personally wouldn't have believed it except I know the guy who did it.
::bow::
P.S..... and just ask Mikey and Gordy, I LOVE helicopters... but many machines have done incredible things in the hands of real aviators. |:)\
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Chopper Doc on October 04, 2008, 10:35:13 PM
Twotters, Buffallos, and hercs are the best flying things with welded wings.
Twotters, in particular, can do some incredible things. We work with them lots in the camps up north. Pictured below is yours truly hitching a ride in one from Baker Lake to Yellowknife one winter.
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Jean Loup on October 05, 2008, 06:19:21 PM
Twotters, Buffallos, and hercs are the best flying things with welded wings.
Twotters, in particular, can do some incredible things. We work with them lots in the camps up north. Pictured below is yours truly hitching a ride in one from Baker Lake to Yellowknife one winter.
¿Why the "incognito"??? Because you are not wearing your dark glasses ??? A Chuck relative, maybe ??? ::rofl:: ::rofl:: ::rofl::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Oddball on October 05, 2008, 06:26:18 PM
i think Chopper Doc was ashamed to be seen flying in a twotter ::rofl::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Jean Loup on October 05, 2008, 06:30:05 PM
Apart from the 15000 parts mistake, you forgot NOISY !!! Real NOISY !!! ::thinking:: But a skydive from a hely (a military Puma in my case...) is an awfully horrifing/interesting experience...like meeting with Frankestain monster in the flesh !!! ::knockedout:: I had never junped fron 15,000 feet above ground level before...interesting. But leaving the ship...HORROR !!! ::complaining: You are suddenly pulled down by much more than "just" gravity pull: that big fan keeping the pilot cool, moves ALL the air DOWN, really FAST !!! ::silly:: ::sweat:: ::loony::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Chopper Doc on October 05, 2008, 10:59:48 PM
Not ashamed, just maintaining a semblance of privacy.
I've never jumped from a heli, but I've done the longline rescue shtick. I can vouch for the draft under the machine, for sure, donYan. Not quite like leaving a fixed wing where you trade forward speed for vertical speed gradually - if you drop from a hover you can actually feel yourself falling!
Dope on a rope:
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: TheSoccerMom on October 06, 2008, 03:16:23 AM
i think Chopper Doc was ashamed to be seen flying in a twotter ::rofl::
Haaaa, well, I never go ANYWHERE without my Rubber-Nose-and-Glasses disguise... and keep a spare pair in the minivan, even!!
:P
::loony::
Title: Re: Helicopters or Airplanes--Let the games begin
Post by: Chopper Doc on October 06, 2008, 05:51:13 PM
I haven't gone so far as to pack a disguise, but I have crossed over to the dark side and built my own aircraft. I even (gasp) fly them for fun...
Just don't tell anyone - you'll spoil my street creds. This is a Zenair 701, a two-seat STOL craft. I've done solo takeoff and landing on grass, no wind, in a combined distance of under 100'. Only a chopper can perform in shorter distances than that - if you plan to use the aircraft again.
