Roost Air Lounge => Aviation related topics => Topic started by: Oddball on January 17, 2008, 06:38:10 PM
Title: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Oddball on January 17, 2008, 06:38:10 PM
A Boeing 777 lost all power on finals as it was about to land at london heathrow no fatalites, just touched down inside the perimiter fence and on the numbers as it flew in from china
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Mike on January 17, 2008, 08:04:48 PM
just saw that on the news...
good thing I didn't fly over London like I often do yesterday....
anybody know anything yet?
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: TheSoccerMom on January 17, 2008, 08:22:09 PM
I thought of you, Mike, when I read on the news that they had "crash-landed"... I'm also glad you were not there!! ::sweat::
The only possible cause mentioned so far that I have found, is wind shear... but you know how that goes, it's all just conjecture at this point.... ::thinking::
There was a comment that they had just missed a car park, etc., and so this was a GREAT outcome..... |:)\
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Fabo on January 17, 2008, 09:12:35 PM
Having a failed elec, engines out and gear up... would not want to be there, kudos to the pilots. ::bow::
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Mike on January 17, 2008, 10:46:58 PM
windshear!!
didn't think about it, but looks more plausible than a total-everything-failure-at-the-same-time . . .
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on January 17, 2008, 11:19:19 PM
Fox news quotes another pilot suggesting windshear. Dunno about the rest, but they do say the gear was down and was torn off.
Quote
LONDON — A British Airways jet carrying 152 people crash landed Thursday at Heathrow airport, tearing its underbelly, damaging its wings and skidding to a halt before emergency chutes deployed. All aboard escaped safely, but eight people were hurt.
The crash landing caused major delays at Europe's busiest airport, temporarily halting departures and arrivals while emergency crews worked at the scene.
Fire trucks surrounded the Boeing 777, which had taken off from Beijing, after it landed early in the afternoon, spraying fire retardant foam around the aircraft.
• Click here to view photos.
Two of the plane's giant wheel units were ripped from the craft during the landing and could be seen on grass near the runway.
Passenger Paul Venter said the trouble started as the aircraft was about to land.
"The wheels came out and went for touchdown, and the next moment we just dropped. I couldn't tell you how far," he said.
"I didn't speak to the pilot, but I saw him, and he looked very pale, but there was no communication in the cabin," Venter said.
RelatedPhoto Essays Britain Plane Mishap The plane's wheels appeared to collapse as it came down in the grass in front of the airport's southern runway, witness John Rowland told the British Broadcasting Corp.
"It crashed into the runway, debris was flying everywhere, there was an enormous bang and it skidded sideways," he said.
London Ambulance Service said eight people had been taken to a hospital with minor injuries.
The accident at one of Heathrow's two runways occurred just before a plane carrying British Prime Minister Gordon Brown and a delegation of business leaders, including Virgin Chairman Richard Branson, was about to depart for China. The prime minister's plane was about half a mile away.
Planes were still taking off and landing on Heathrow's northern runway, air traffic control company Nats said. Some other flights were diverted to other airports, Heathrow said on its Web site.
The Air Accident Investigation Branch was investigating, British Airways Chief Executive Willie Walsh told reporters, adding the airline didn't want to speculate on the cause.
The passengers had been taken to a center, where airline staff were looking after them, Walsh said.
"The customers on board the aircraft are generally in good spirits, I know they are anxious to get back to their friends," Walsh said. "They are being interviewed by the police until all the relevant details have been taken."
It was the first accident involving the Boeing 777 since the plane entered service in 1995, said Boeing spokeswoman Liz Verdier in Seattle.
The Boeing 777, one of 42 in the BA fleet, was relatively new at six years old, Walsh said.
"The captain of the aircraft is one of our most experienced and has been flying with us for nearly 20 years," he said.
Emergency workers surrounded the plane and firefighters sprayed fire retardant foam as a precaution as the 16-member crew evacuated passengers on inflatable chutes.
Passenger Jerome Ensinck told the BBC that he at first thought the plane had made a hard landing.
"There was no indication that we were going to have a bad landing," he said. "When we hit the ground it was extremely rough."
"Then the emergency exits were opened and we were all told we should go through as quickly as possible, and the moment I was away from the plane I started to realize that the undercarriage was away, and we had missed the runway, Ensinck said.
"Now I realize I've had a close call," he said.
Robert Cullemore of Aviation Economics, a London-based aviation consultancy, said a pilot from a competing airline told him officials believed the cause of the accident was wind shear, a sudden gust of wind.
"It can happen anytime anywhere and if it happens you just hope there is no airplane nearby," Cullemore said.
He said the pilot kept the plane in the air long enough to prevent a disastrous outcome.
"If it had landed 200 meters (656 feet) shorter than it did, it may have hit perimeter fence and obviously some other buildings and the car park, clearly we would be dealing with fatalities and obvious damage," Cullemore said.
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: leiafee on January 17, 2008, 11:36:06 PM
Nyah, the undershoot is there for a reason...
The evac procedures worked, the aircraft stayed broadly in one piece and didn't catch fire, and no one got worse than a bumped head. That's a good result in my book. I'd get on a triple7 tomorrow on that evidence.
On the other hand a probably slightly frazzled just-made-a-forced-landing pilot allegedly burbling something about power failures to a towtruck driver which was passed on second or third had to a reporter is somewhat less convincing...
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: undatc on January 18, 2008, 03:44:19 AM
Is it bad that all that went through my head when I saw the pictures was, "wow, thats expensive."
With a price tag of 200-280 million the 777 isnt your granddads Cessna...
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: BrianGMFS on January 18, 2008, 04:14:20 AM
Another nail in the coffin of the Boeing Airbus debate.... Compare the pictures of the BA 777 hitting the ground at landing speed to the ones of the A340 that hit a wall at 30 kts... I admit that the two accidents were totally different situations..... But I still follow the adage If it aint' Boeing I aint' going ::rofl:: Substitute Canadair and MD/Douglas for Boeing into that as well... while I hear the quirks that the Brazillian made birds have when our techs at work have to go do a gate call can make you wonder. the E-190's that Jet Blue flies out of Burlington to Orlando take over 10 minutes to "Boot" up once power is on the airplane, if you bump any of the the controls before the plane boots up you have to shut it down and do it all again ::banghead::
We had a CRJ in the shop over the weekend, had a gear disagree (nose wheel wouldn't come up) but it still locked down. changed out a valve, put it on jacks, swung the gear 4-5 times and she was good to go. I gotta post the pics of the CRJ out on the ramp on jacks with the wheels up.... Kinda erie
Brian
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on January 18, 2008, 07:48:46 AM
Quote
E-190's that Jet Blue flies out of Burlington to Orlando take over 10 minutes to "Boot" up once power is on the airplane, if you bump any of the the controls before the plane boots up you have to shut it down and do it all again
This may be part of the reason ERJ's and E-190's are referred to as "WSCOD's". That is an acronym for "Whistling $hitCan Of Death". ::thinking::
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Oddball on January 18, 2008, 08:18:42 AM
saw the news this morning at work the plane was fully configured for landing, it tore the starboard gear off and pushed the port gear through the wing, WIND SHEAR MY A**E!! if it happened about a minute ealier it would of been over central london
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Baradium on January 18, 2008, 08:53:59 AM
Another nail in the coffin of the Boeing Airbus debate.... Compare the pictures of the BA 777 hitting the ground at landing speed to the ones of the A340 that hit a wall at 30 kts... I admit that the two accidents were totally different situations..... But I still follow the adage If it aint' Boeing I aint' going ::rofl:: Substitute Canadair and MD/Douglas for Boeing into that as well... while I hear the quirks that the Brazillian made birds have when our techs at work have to go do a gate call can make you wonder. the E-190's that Jet Blue flies out of Burlington to Orlando take over 10 minutes to "Boot" up once power is on the airplane, if you bump any of the the controls before the plane boots up you have to shut it down and do it all again ::banghead::
We had a CRJ in the shop over the weekend, had a gear disagree (nose wheel wouldn't come up) but it still locked down. changed out a valve, put it on jacks, swung the gear 4-5 times and she was good to go. I gotta post the pics of the CRJ out on the ramp on jacks with the wheels up.... Kinda erie
Brian
What about the CRJ that had the landing gear that indicated down when it wasn't? ;)
As far as this... a friend of mine who flies 767s conjectured that maybe flying into a large flock of birds could have done it... but he said it'd have taken a LOT of birds to stall a turbofan with a 13' diameter.
He said he saw a short video clip of the plane right before/at the crash. He said it was at an extremely high AOA, behind the power curve. It would look like that in a windshear situation, but other factors could lead to that as well.
The GE engines on the 777 spin up faster than the pratts, but engines that large still take a long time to spool up. If they brought the power to idle too early and waited too long to correct it, that might have had an effect (this is from me, not him... he just commented about the spool up times).
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on January 18, 2008, 02:01:59 PM
Quote
What about the CRJ that had the landing gear that indicated down when it wasn't?
That was a WSCOD. There's a pic of it somewhere in this forum on a thread.
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Fabo on January 18, 2008, 02:54:38 PM
Sorry about that gear up, was my misinterpretation obviously :)
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Mike on January 18, 2008, 05:09:12 PM
saw the news this morning at work the plane was fully configured for landing, it tore the starboard gear off and pushed the port gear through the wing, WIND SHEAR MY A**E!! if it happened about a minute ealier it would of been over central london
what are you talking about?
when do you think wind shear will be most dangerous ?? on approach in full landing config. ? or over London while still flying at speed?
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Mike on January 18, 2008, 05:12:37 PM
I think the fact that nobody said anything about a loud bang before the drop all points to either windshear or microburst or something. I can believe a pilot "thinking" he lost power all of a sudden as well.
Good thing we don't have to worry about windshear in helicopters too much . . . ;D
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Oddball on January 18, 2008, 05:16:48 PM
sorry mike its just that i saw all these "experts" comment about it on BBC news 24 when i was at work ,even saw the ITN news at ten had made a flight sim of the crash landing, and all they could do is come up with wind shear when they did not what could of caused the crash
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Mike on January 18, 2008, 05:19:25 PM
sorry mike its just that i saw all these "experts" comment about it on BBC news 24 when i was at work ,even saw the ITN news at ten had made a flight sim of the crash landing, and all they could do is come up with wind shear when they did not what could of caused the crash
maybe it WAS windshear ?!
I can't see a 777 just dropping for no reason NOR loose both engines at the same time NOR the plane let the pilots stall it . . .
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: leiafee on January 18, 2008, 06:21:03 PM
saw the news this morning at work the plane was fully configured for landing, it tore the starboard gear off and pushed the port gear through the wing, WIND SHEAR MY A**E!! if it happened about a minute ealier it would of been over central london
Ever considered applying for a job at the AAIB since you usefully and magically know at a glance what can and can't be ruled out as an accident cause. :P
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: leiafee on January 18, 2008, 06:24:13 PM
Initial and tenative statement now released by the AAIB. http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/accident__heathrow_17_january_2008___initial_report.cfm
First theory is an throttle problem. As in More Throttle <> More Power!
I still dont think it's fair to over dramatise even so. It could turn out to be something utterly trival that would have been resolvable if it had happened at altitude with time to troubleshoot, rather than on extremely short final.
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: undatc on January 18, 2008, 06:35:23 PM
Kinda interesting the LLWS facet of this. Anyone have the weather that day for London? It does take certain types of weather to produce LLWS, and I cant imagine that London isnt without LLWS alert systems being as large as it is. A quick check of the ATIS for that time period will confirm if they had LLWS advisories in effect or not.
*Edit, one other thing, is LLWS were in effect, a METAR for that time period would also work as they would have to issue a SPECI if LLWS were detected, one of the few things that a SPECI has to be issued for.
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Mike on January 18, 2008, 09:29:32 PM
Initial and tenative statement now released by the AAIB. http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/accident__heathrow_17_january_2008___initial_report.cfm
First theory is an throttle problem. As in More Throttle <> More Power!
I still dont think it's fair to over dramatise even so. It could turn out to be something utterly trival that would have been resolvable if it had happened at altitude with time to troubleshoot, rather than on extremely short final.
Woah! :o ::eek::
This is always the kind of thing that scares me when flying with computer throttles and FADEC's. I don't know why, maybe I am oldschool.
Could happen on mechanical throttles too though I guess . . . (cable break or jamb...)
Title: UPDATE Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Baradium on January 18, 2008, 10:02:35 PM
Cool-headed Capt Peter Burkill realised his Boeing 777 had suffered a total power failure as he approached Heathrow at 200mph - and calmly announced: "I'll just have to glide it in."
The jet was flying over the densely populated West London suburbs surrounding the airport when he lost all power and all the electrics suddenly died.
Note that this is all preliminary and even some accounts given don't quite agree with this (keep in mind that non fliers many times mistake what they are seeing with regards to aircraft).
Also note I am below posting multiple articles, some are contradictory.
Quote
Heathrow crash pilot deserves 'medal as big as a frying pan' MIRACLE OF FLIGHT BA038 By Martin Fricker And Rebecca Evans Martin.Fricker@Mirror.Co.Uk 18/01/2008 A heroic British Airways pilot averted catastrophe yesterday by gliding his jet into Heathrow after its engines failed.
Capt Peter Burkill kept Flight BA038 airborne over houses and schools before crash-landing in a field. Only 19 of the 136 people on board were hurt.
A witness said: "He deserves a medal as big as a frying pan."
The jet swooped in a few feet above cars heading for the airport - including one carrying Gordon Brown.
Cool-headed Capt Peter Burkill realised his Boeing 777 had suffered a total power failure as he approached Heathrow at 200mph - and calmly announced: "I'll just have to glide it in."
The jet was flying over the densely populated West London suburbs surrounding the airport when he lost all power and all the electrics suddenly died.
Capt Burkill and his crew managed to keep it airborne above houses, schools and offices - clearing Heathrow's perimeter fence by just five feet before crash-landing into a field 500 yards short of the runway.
The undercarriage of Flight BA038 was partially ripped off, along with two wheels. But just 19 of the 136 passengers and crew were hurt - mostly suffering minor injuries.
One airport worker who spoke to Capt Burkill after his heroic efforts said: "He told me that the aircraft shut down and he lost all his power.
"He just glided it in and lifted the nose up and managed to get it down.
"He lost power very close to coming into land. It was over Hounslow or Feltham. He said he had no warning, absolutely nothing at all. Suddenly it's gone, boom, he's lost power, everything.
"It's a miracle he managed to land it. The man deserves a medal as big as a frying pan. He has done a fantastic job."
British Airways chief executive Willie Walsh echoed those views last night as he said: "I'd like to pay tribute to the 16 crew of the BA038 led by Capt Peter Burkill.
"They showed great courage and professionalism in landing the aircraft safely. All of the crew did a fantastic job evacuating the 136 passengers. They are all heroes and everyone at British Airways is very proud of them.
"An investigation is being conducted by the Air Accidents Investigation Branch so it would be inappropriate to speculate about the likely cause of this incident."
As the jet from Beijing crash-landed it gouged huge chunks out of the field. It skidded along before coming to a halt at the southernmost point of runway 27L, leaving a trail of debris in its wake.
Terrified passengers escaped from the jet down inflatable chutes as emergency vehicles raced towards them.
Last night they told of the nightmare as the plane belly-flopped on to the muddy field.
Jason Johnson said: "We came in very, very fast and I realised something was very wrong. It was like something I have never felt before. It felt like I was in a washing machine. When we landed I heard a bang and felt the plane slide. The wings were making cracking sounds. It was very, very loud."
Chinese passenger Mrs Ding, who injured her hand, said: "I didn't know what was happening. There was no warning.
"Suddenly we crash landed. We all jarred in our seat. My head whipped forward and my back snapped. It was excruciating.
"There was screaming near me. It was terrifying - like a movie with things flying everywhere and yelps from staff and passengers. I don't remember being walked to the emergency chute - but someone must have guided me. It just remember hitting the ground very hard."
Fernando Pardo was sitting above the left wing when it smashed into the ground. He said: "I was sitting on the left hand side of the plane facing backwards overlooking the wing. Thank God I survived. I feel as if I won the lottery today."
Paul Venter saw Captain Burkill after the landing - and said the pilot looked stunned.
He added: "I didn't speak to him, but he looked very pale."
Wang Man, 20, who was flying to London to see her boyfriend for the first time in five months, said: "I was very scared.
"There wasn't an announcement so nobody was braced for a crash landing. People were just screaming." Jerome Ensinck said he felt extremely lucky to have escaped unscathed.
He said: "People looked shocked as they exited the plane and we all got out as quickly as possible. It was only when I left and looked back that I appreciated what a close call it was."
Witnesses on the ground described how the six-year-old aircraft came screaming in at 12.42pm - just a few feet above cars on the airport's perimeter road.
Taxi driver John Rowland said: "Instead of the usual 150ft up, the jet was was a matter of 20 or 15ft off the ground as it went over my cab. I shouted 'Oh my God' as it missed the top of the perimeter fence of the airport by about five feet.
"It was very very close to the top of my vehicle and even closer to the fence. It crashed down onto the grass and there was debris flying all over the place as it skidded along. I really thought it was in my cab. It was that close and there was that much noise."
Heathrow ground worker Andrew Blows said the plane suddenly "dropped like a stone" as it approached the runway.
He said: "Its wheels were down properly and it seemed to be coming in totally normally until it got to about 50ft above the ground, then it just dropped like a stone.
"It was absolutely terrifying to watch, I really thought we were going to have a disaster on our hands.
"As it finally skidded to a halt I stood watching - just waiting for it to burst into flames."
Nineteen people, both British and Chinese, were taken to Hillingdon Hospital suffering from minor injuries. A spokeswoman said a number were suffering from whiplash. The most seriously injured has a broken leg. At least four of the injured were from the crew but Capt Burkill, who has 20 years flying experience, was not among them.
Last night investigators were examining the crash site. The plane underwent a regular maintenance check last month. It is one of 43 Boeing 777s in BA's fleet.
It is the first 777 to crash and BA last night said it had no plans to ground the rest of its fleet. A spokeswoman added: "No aircraft are being taken out of service while the investigation into the crash continues."
A total of 221 flights were cancelled following the accident and many others were delayed. Bosses at Heathrow say the backlog could take days to clear.
Transport Secretary Ruth Kelly last night paid tribute to the emergency services and said she was relieved no passengers had been seriously injured. She added: "The next step is to find out what happened and why."
Aviation expert Kieran Daly from Flight International magazine said he was shocked by the accident, given the high quality of the aircraft, airline and airport involved.
He added: "The 777 is pretty much state of the art at the moment, even though it has been around for quite a long time. It's hard to understand what might have gone wrong.
"We're talking about one of the most advanced aircraft in the world, operated by one of the most safety-conscious airlines in the world, flying into one of the safest airports in the world. It's quite a surprise."
Heathrow crash plane's engines 'went in reverse' MIRACLE OF FLIGHT BA038 By Mike Swain, Science Editor 18/01/2008 The plane's engines could have switched into reverse as it approached, experts said last night.
They are computer controlled to do so "a few feet before the wheels hit the runway", a British Boeing pilot with 25 years' experience said.
He added: "Looking at the pictures I can see the engines were in reverse thrust. It's a normal routine auxiliary braking system but if the computer malfunctioned and thought the plane was much lower than it really was, it could have caused this.
"The pilot reported loss of power and that's how it would feel - the plane would be trying to push itself backwards. Witnesses reported louder-than-usual engine noise and that's what you get in reverse thrust.
"But the systems are almost foolproof and it's difficult to see how it could occur several hundred feet up."
Chris Yates, of Jane's Airport Review, said: "If the pilot had a total power failure he would have been able to do nothing but hold up the nose of the plane and pray. With a catastrophic engine shutdown the plane is just gliding at 200mph."
Jeff Jupp, of the Royal Academy of Engineering, said: "It looks consistent with a total power failure - except for emergency power for flight controls. Very unusual."
Other speculation centred on a bird being sucked into an engine - but the plane should have been able to land on one engine.
Investigators will also look at pilot error, gusting side winds and turbulence from a plane in front.
I'd like to note that I've had a radar altimeter malfunction before. The most recent time was this week. This wouldn't seem too likely if everything shut down, as it would seem the reversers wouldn't deploy.
Also, if he didn't see video of the plane on approach, the reversers could have been ripped back during the course of the crash.
Quote of the day:
Quote
"Like all airline pilots he is very good-looking. But he is also very focused and positive. He is definitely cool, calm and collected, the kind of person you would want to have in a crisis," said Valerie.
Heathrow hero pilot is 'cool, calm and collected' By Mirror.co.uk 18/01/2008
Heathrow hero pilot Peter Burkill is “cool, calm and collected – the perfect man to have in a crisis” according to friends.
And today praise was heaped on the George Clooney lookalike and his cabin crew team who prevented a potential disaster on flight BA 038 at Heathrow yesterday.
Prime Minister Gordon Brown, who had a close shave as the stricken jet swooped low over the airport’s perimeter road, said: "I think it's right to pay tribute to the calmness and professionalism of the British Airways staff and the captain and what he achieved in landing the aircraft.”
Mr Brown was due to fly out to China and his plane was on the tarmac as the BA flight from Beijing slewed to a halt. Speaking from China, Mr Brown added: "The speed of the evacuation we saw at first hand, and the total professionalism and dedication of the staff.
"It's at times like these you remember you are in the hands of staff who do a remarkable job."
A neighbour of Captain Burkill, Valerie Firminger, paid a more personal tribute to the father of three young sons.
"Like all airline pilots he is very good-looking. But he is also very focused and positive. He is definitely cool, calm and collected, the kind of person you would want to have in a crisis," said Valerie.
Captain Burkill and his wife Lynn live in a £500,000 detached house in Worcester.
Valerie added: "They are a lovely family. He's a great dad, great with the kids. He's just really nice and down to earth.”
BA chief executive Willie Walsh said last night: "I would like to pay tribute to the 16 crew of the BA038 led by Captain Peter Burkill.
"The flight crew showed great courage and professionalism in landing the aircraft safely.
"All of the crew did a fantastic job evacuating the 136 passengers. They are all heroes and everyone at British Airways is very proud of them."
Captain Burkill, who is in his mid-40s, enjoys up to four family holidays a year, including an annual skiing trip and a summer jaunt to the Caribbean. He also has a flat in a new Butlins timeshare development in Minehead, Somerset.
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: leiafee on January 18, 2008, 10:44:56 PM
Sooooo who shall we believe then? The AAIB?... Or the Daily Rag Mirror quoting the local cabby?
Can I have a minute to think about it? ::)
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: leiafee on January 18, 2008, 10:58:16 PM
Just for fun...
Translations for journalists
"approached Heathrow at 200mph" == "approached Heathrow at the normal landing speed"
"a field 500 yards short of the runway." == "the defined and prepared undershoot area"
"managed to keep it airborne" == "glided as they'd been trained to do"
::banghead::
Reading reports of aircraft accident in the news really does make me seriously wonder what other headlines they're talking utter bollocks about!
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on January 19, 2008, 12:42:57 AM
CNN Int'l is reporting today the initial findings of the investigation. They are saying that according to the Flight Data Recorder, the Autothrottle commanded a power increase 2 miles before the runway, and the engines did NOT respond. The flight crew then manually advanced the power levers with no response either.
Is there anyway the FADEC computers could lock up like that? This is weird...
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on January 19, 2008, 12:53:57 AM
Baradium, I posted before reading your post. They still aren't ruling out total power loss? Wouldn't the cabin lights have gone out had that happened?
I tend to discount the idea of thrust reversers automatically engaging in flight. I think all of today's large aircraft have the thrust reversers tied in to the Squat switch on the landing gear in order to prevent them from engaging if there is no weight on the wheels. What you suggested is more likely, they got jammed open by dirt and debris once the nacelles made contact with the ground.
Leia, thank you for posting the AAIB initial report. Just read it. No mention of total power loss, so I guess it'll take some time to figure out just what went wrong.
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Baradium on January 19, 2008, 07:11:34 AM
Baradium, I posted before reading your post. They still aren't ruling out total power loss? Wouldn't the cabin lights have gone out had that happened?
I tend to discount the idea of thrust reversers automatically engaging in flight. I think all of today's large aircraft have the thrust reversers tied in to the Squat switch on the landing gear in order to prevent them from engaging if there is no weight on the wheels. What you suggested is more likely, they got jammed open by dirt and debris once the nacelles made contact with the ground.
Leia, thank you for posting the AAIB initial report. Just read it. No mention of total power loss, so I guess it'll take some time to figure out just what went wrong.
Squat switches are fallable. So I wouldn't automatically discount it, just consider it highly unlikely.
In power failure situations, it could have been localized to a system short that caused a breaker to trip, thus allowing cabin lights to stay on... but again, probobly not too likely that everything up front would die in a way to leave the back on.
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Oddball on January 19, 2008, 07:57:42 AM
initail report from the AAIB via the BBC news the Boeing 777 suffered power failure at least two miles out, heard that on the way home from work this morning
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Oddball on January 19, 2008, 08:02:30 AM
saw the news this morning at work the plane was fully configured for landing, it tore the starboard gear off and pushed the port gear through the wing, WIND SHEAR MY A**E!! if it happened about a minute ealier it would of been over central london
Ever considered applying for a job at the AAIB since you usefully and magically know at a glance what can and can't be ruled out as an accident cause. :P
and yes i have made enquires about joining the AAIB
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Baradium on January 19, 2008, 11:47:40 AM
There are some rather impressive pictures at the above link. I recommend just going there, but the full text is below.
Quote
The real hero of the Heathrow crash landing was revealed yesterday as a man named Coward.
Straight after the drama Captain Peter Burkill was praised for safely bringing down his stricken Boeing 777 with 136 passengers on board.
But Captain Burkill admitted yesterday that Senior First Officer John Coward was at the controls when the plane suffered a catastrophic power failure in both engines 40 seconds from landing. The initial investigation report confirmed both engines had failed two miles from the airport.
"Flying is about teamwork - and we had an outstanding team on board yesterday," said the 43-year-old father of five.
I am proud to say that every member of the team played their part expertly, displaying the highest standards of skill and professionalism. No-one more so than my senior first officer John Coward - who was the handling pilot in the final stages of the flight - and did the most remarkable job.
"My first officer, Conor Magenis, also assisted continually."
Mr Coward, 41, has been a BA pilot since 1993.
Theories about the cause of the crash include mechanical or electronic failure, or water somehow contaminating the fuel. Aviation sources at Manchester Airport said a BA ground engineer told them: "We've been told to carry out checks to make sure that any water in our fleet's fuel tanks is removed. Water contamination is a constant and common problem in fuel."
Air accident investigators said yesterday that the plane had been on autopilot and autothrottle at 600ft, over West Hounslow, and in its landing approach after a normal and uneventful flight. At that point, the autothrottle had demanded an "increase in thrust", meaning more power, from the engines but they failed to respond.
With time running out, the flight crew then tried to move the throttle levers manually and the engines again failed to respond.
By then, the plane was seconds from the ground with Mr Coward at the controls and so sudden and dramatic was the failure that the crew did not have time to sound a warning. It would have taken less than 40 seconds for the plane to travel the last two miles.
Hero: But Peter Burkill revealed his colleague John Coward was actually the man at the controls Witnesses described the plane coming in very low and landing short of the runway, narrowly missing the perimeter fence, before skidding across grass and tarmac. According to a friend of the captain, he had to use the wingflaps to supply enough lift to clear the fence.
Yesterday the two pilots refused to discuss any aspect of the flight as together with Sharon Eaton-Mercer, the cabin services director who oversaw the emergency evacuation of the flight from Beijing, they appeared at a photo call alongside BA chief executive Willie Walsh.
The three arrived to warm applause from fellow BA staff as Captain Burkill read a statement praising the crew, emergency services, and passengers.
Inquiries by the Air Accidents Investigation Branch appear to rule out any form of pilot error in the approach for landing. One area of specific interest will be the electrical system after it emerged yesterday that there had been at least 12 serious incidents of overheating, causing "major damage" to power panels on at least four occasions.
The initial findings of investigators are based on interviews with the pilots and analysis of the black box flight recorder and cockpit voice recorder.
Last night the initial accident report appeared to confirm that only the supreme skill and bravery of the pilots had averted major loss of life. And whatever the cause of the accident, there was widespread praise for the skill and professionalism of the crew during the emergency.
The Prime Minister's own flight to China was delayed at Heathrow and yesterday Mr Brown praised the pilot's professionalism in averting a disaster.
At his press conference, Captain Burkill went on to praise his crew for their expertise and calmness during the evacuation - just 13 people suffered minor injuries while escaping from the smoke filled cabin - and to thank the emergency services.
He thanked too the passengers for "their calmness and good sense under extremely unfamiliar circumstances" and wished those hurt a "speedy and complete recovery". The broken fuselage of the Boeing 777 remained in place near the tip of Heathrow's southern runway yesterday as some flights continued to suffer delays and cancellations.
It emerged yesterday that Capt Burkill had joked with friends at a Christmas party about what he would do if his engines failed.
Neighbour Valerie Firminger, 61, said she had asked him what he would do in an emergency during the party near their homes in Worcester.
"He mulled it over for a couple seconds and said that if only one engine failed than he would probably be able to cope with none of the passengers the wiser. But if both went, he said, 'I'd glide it in as best as possible' and then with a smile he added 'and hope for the best'.
"But if I ever was in that situation, there is nobody else I'd want behind the controls."
Captain Burkill, who is understood to have two children from a previous marriage, has lived in a large detached home by the River Severn in Worcester with wife of five years, Maria, a paramedic, and their three sons - three-year-old Troy, 18-month-old Logan and two-month-old Coby - for nearly two years.
Mrs Burkill, 34, who met her husband while she was a long-haul air hostess with BA, wrote on her Friends Reunited entry: "I met the man of my dreams in 2002 and we got married in May 03."
Last night, it emerged Mrs Burkill had contacted publicist Max Clifford with plans to sell her husband's story. The publicist was understood to be in negotiations with Sunday newspapers.
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on January 19, 2008, 02:55:49 PM
Quote
Last night, it emerged Mrs Burkill had contacted publicist Max Clifford with plans to sell her husband's story. The publicist was understood to be in negotiations with Sunday newspapers.
<GROAN> The dust hasn't even settled, and the wife of the FO is already looking to cash in on this! ::banghead:: ::banghead:: ::banghead::
She ought to wait until the final report comes in. No one has been cleared yet. Does anyone remember that Airbus that had to dead-stick into the Canary Islands when they lost all fuel overboard due to some kind of broken fuel line? Everyone praised the flight crew for managing to keep it airborne for 40 miles. Then when the final report became public, it was revealed that they hadn't followed either a checklist or SOP's to shut down the engine that was losing all the fuel, which lead to their having fuel starvation. Then they became the goats.
I would hate to see that happen here, but fuel starvation IS a possibility...
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: leiafee on January 19, 2008, 04:04:25 PM
The report doesn't say it "lost power" it says that more power was asked for and didn't happen.
I wonder if the trust responded the other way -- to closing the throttle?
Landing without power is a different sort of problem than landing with effectively a stuck throttle. Equally undesirable mind you!
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Baradium on January 19, 2008, 09:34:53 PM
Last night, it emerged Mrs Burkill had contacted publicist Max Clifford with plans to sell her husband's story. The publicist was understood to be in negotiations with Sunday newspapers.
<GROAN> The dust hasn't even settled, and the wife of the FO is already looking to cash in on this! ::banghead:: ::banghead:: ::banghead::
She ought to wait until the final report comes in. No one has been cleared yet. Does anyone remember that Airbus that had to dead-stick into the Canary Islands when they lost all fuel overboard due to some kind of broken fuel line? Everyone praised the flight crew for managing to keep it airborne for 40 miles. Then when the final report became public, it was revealed that they hadn't followed either a checklist or SOP's to shut down the engine that was losing all the fuel, which lead to their having fuel starvation. Then they became the goats.
I would hate to see that happen here, but fuel starvation IS a possibility...
Minor correction, that's the wife of the Captain who is looking to cash in, not the wife of the F/O.
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Ragwing on January 20, 2008, 04:37:20 AM
I really enjoyed the part about being two miles out and 600 FEET...... OUCH, that is a little low.
Fuel starvation or contamination would not hit both engines at the same time. At the termination of the flight, you should be drawing fuel from both wings.
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on January 20, 2008, 06:32:19 AM
I really enjoyed the part about being two miles out and 600 FEET...... OUCH, that is a little low.
Fuel starvation or contamination would not hit both engines at the same time. At the termination of the flight, you should be drawing fuel from both wings.
Pure conjecture on my part.
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Mike on January 20, 2008, 07:45:58 PM
yeah, I am really curious how this plays out.
might be a big ol' "OH! THAT"S WHAT IT WAS" experience . . .
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: AirScorp on January 22, 2008, 02:44:45 AM
Here's a picture of the new landing lights installed at Heathrow as a result of the landing
Dude!!!! Thats what I needed when I took my PPL course!!!
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Mike on January 26, 2008, 01:41:00 AM
NICE, GIL!!!
Looks like a perfect runway for Chuck as well.....
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: leiafee on January 26, 2008, 07:32:52 PM
Update to the initial report from the AAIB (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_news/accident_to_boeing_777_236__g_ymmm__at_heathrow_airport_on_17_january_2008___initial_report_update.cfm)
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Oddball on January 26, 2008, 07:45:44 PM
hmmm thats intresting ::thinking::
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Mike on February 05, 2008, 03:15:25 AM
hmmm....
now I wonder if the pilots could have done anything by disengaging the autopilot and moving the throttle forward. did they try to do that? if they did and nothing worked . . . that must have been a sinking feeling (pun somewhat intended....since nobody got hurt)
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Baradium on February 05, 2008, 03:29:51 AM
now I wonder if the pilots could have done anything by disengaging the autopilot and moving the throttle forward. did they try to do that? if they did and nothing worked . . . that must have been a sinking feeling (pun somewhat intended....since nobody got hurt)
Yes, they did try manually adding power.
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: airtac on February 05, 2008, 03:32:33 AM
now I wonder if the pilots could have done anything by disengaging the autopilot and moving the throttle forward. did they try to do that? if they did and nothing worked . . . that must have been a sinking feeling (pun somewhat intended....since nobody got hurt)
Yes, they did try manually adding power.
kinda like "steppin' on a plum"----"Wolf creek pass"
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Baradium on February 05, 2008, 05:00:02 AM
kinda like "steppin' on a plum"----"Wolf creek pass"
"wolf creek pass way up on the great divide... truckin' on down... the other side...."
I'm a fan of "black bear road" and "four wheel drive" as well...
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on February 05, 2008, 05:59:04 AM
Quote
"...I looked on outta the window, and I started a-countin' phone poles goin' by at the rate of four to the seventh power. I put two and two together, added twelve and carried five and come up with 22,000 telephone poles per hour."
"I looked at Earl and his eyes was wide, His lip was curled and his leg was fried. His hands was froze to the wheel like a tongue to a sled in the middle of a blizzard!..."
You can see why I ain't gonna ever change my signature line, I bet. There are way too many great lines in this old truckin' tune! ::whistle::
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: AirScorp on February 05, 2008, 12:10:58 PM
Title: Re: Boeing 7777 total power failure
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on February 05, 2008, 06:54:54 PM
Quote
Well Earl grabbed on the shifter, and he stabbed her into fifth gear, and then the Chromium-plated fully-Aluminated Genuine Accessory shifter knob come right off in his hand. I says, "You wanna screw that thing back on Earl?"
Quote
...We took that top row of chickens off slicker than scum off a Louisiana swamp...
::rofl:: ::rofl:: ::rofl:: ::rofl:: ::rofl::
See what I mean?
Thanks Nick for finding the original on YouTube. Man, its priceless! |:)\ |:)\ |:)\ |:)\
