Roost Air Lounge => Aviation related topics => Topic started by: Rooster Cruiser on December 05, 2007, 06:06:46 PM
Title: Robinson R44 Advice?
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on December 05, 2007, 06:06:46 PM
My employer is looking to purchase a Robinson R44 and use it as a part-time ag sprayer. He has somebody offering to sell him a 1998 model R44Astro that has only 585TT on the airframe, but it is non-hydraulic trim. I am hearing from another source that the R44 has a 12 year airframe overhaul interval that will cost about $200K to complete. Is this correct?
I am in need of some advice here, friends. I am a fixed wing pilot, and da boss is throwing this helo project into my lap in a sink-or-swim situation. I need to get my ducks all lined up by the end of the year on this project. Gosh, I haven't even begun to speak to anyone about spray-rigs! Would appreciate any education you guys could offer to me.
RC
Title: Re: Robinson R44 Advice?
Post by: BrianGMFS on December 05, 2007, 08:45:28 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a spray rig on any Robbie....especially a R-44. Usualy it's old H-300's, But Mike or Gordy would know better than me.
Brian
Title: Re: Robinson R44 Advice?
Post by: G-man on December 06, 2007, 06:06:53 AM
I don't think I've ever seen a spray rig on any Robbie....especially a R-44. Usualy it's old H-300's, But Mike or Gordy would know better than me.
Brian
Yep they make them----I learnt to spray MANY years ago in an R-22 with a DTM-3 spray rig attached to it. It only has a 40 gallon tank which was perfect for the smaller fields and doing brush work.
As for the R-44, they do make a larger system for it. Incidentally, many years ago I flew the first R-44 out of the LA basin, serial #7. The company I worked for at the time was the first R-44 dealer----I was the demo pilot for the company and flew Wayne Mulgrew, the developer of the DTM system when he was looking to buy an R-44 and build a spray rig. He holds the altitude and speed records for the R-22--unfortunately he is no longer with us.
Yes the R-44 has time limited parts in terms of hours and years---I am not sure of the exact numbers, but 10 years sounds about right. I will look a little more into it in a few days if you can wait.. I am about to take a helicopter upto North Dakota--I blame it on ya'll posting pictures of snow etc..
Title: Re: Robinson R44 Advice?
Post by: G-man on December 06, 2007, 07:41:54 AM
Did a search and found this for you:
http://www.agairupdate.com/ R44 - the next ag chopper by Eugene Kalafatis
Realizing my R22 had reached its productivity limits, I decided it was time to upgrade. My question was, which helicopter would best suit my needs, increase my workload per hour while still making a good profit with cheap operating costs? I began looking into available ag spray kits for helicopters. I had an Enstrom F28C with an ag kit. It was a great helicopter, but it was too slow. With its side tank, I could rarely fly faster than 60 mph. I needed to be able to fly at least 80 mph. Also, the Enstrom was expensive to maintain. So, apart from speed, an Enstrom was an option. I looked into the Hughes 300/269. This helicopter was not as strong as the Enstrom, meaning it would not lift the same loads. But, the biggest problem with the Hughes was its speed. It is no faster than an Enstrom. Next, I turned my attention to the Bell 47. It is a beast! It can carry a massive load and looked to be a very strong machine. The problem, again, was that it was too slow. Plus, there are very few Bell 47s in South Africa. I could not afford to have a helicopter spares problem. Another option was the Hiller UH-12 E. This ship, too, is a beast. Like the Bell 47, but there is no backup service in South Africa. I was able to find one here, but it was in need of component changes. Why purchase a helicopter with major overhauls due soon? It too, was slow moving for my needs. I had examined all the heli possibilities available to me in South Africa with the exception of the R44. I was operating an R22 and knew the quality of the aircraft. However, the spray systems I’d seen on them were designed for the landowner, not for commercial operations like mine. If I could find a suitable spray system, then the R44 would surely be the way to go with its speed and lift abilities. I discovered Helipod International (www.helipod-international.com), a New Zealand company that manufactured a commercial-grade spray system for the R44. I checked out their belly tank construction and determined it would work nicely. I contacted Peter Maloney of Helipod and explained what I was looking for specifically. I asked him if he could make alterations to his product to suit my particular needs. He seemed happy for my input and requested details. My first area of concern was the high volume Honda engine with its aluminum pump. It would have to be changed. The sugarcane chemicals I use for ripening will eat through it in no time. A high volume plastic Pacer pump would have to be put in front of the 5.5 hp Honda engine. This would give me flow rates over a thousand liters per minute. This easily could take care of my sugarcane ripening, forestry, herbicide and insecticide work. My next concern was the booms. I wanted a dual setup on one boom using Micronairs for ULV work, as well as normal hydraulic nozzles (TeeJets) for hollow cone, flat fans, etc. work. I needed three Micronairs per side. Peter increased the size of the top support brace to accommodate the Micronair brackets. This set-up allowed me to switch between atomizers and nozzles. In the past, I used 1/4-inch shut-off valves to turnoff either the Micronair or the nozzles while on the same boom. Often when I spray sugarcane ripener, the farmer will want Roundup work afterwards. With this new set-up, I can accommodate the farmer and be more efficient in a game where every minute counts. The booms come with either a 100% or 80% rotor diameter length. They are attached with camlocs to a center section that is attached to the tank. You can remove each side boom, install it onto a bracket assembly on the skid and ferry to the job site with little loss of speed due to drag. I use 80% of the rotor diameter boom length for herbicide work. Adding an extension, I have 100% rotor diameter boom length for orchid and insecticide jobs. It is a huge advantage to be able to change from one spray system to another. But, the question of the correct flow rate arises? To insure this, I installed a TeeJet Series 70 Flow Meter inside the cockpit of the R44. Peter installed a switch on the cyclic control unit that operated an electronic flow regulator valve installed on the delivery side of the pump to the boom. The valve directs the flow through the flow regulator sensor, then to the booms giving a read out on the console in liters per minute. With this information, I can calibrate flow based on speed, swath and rate while in flight. The last item of approval for my spray system was the incorporation of a tank jettison door. I consider this mandatory; it may save my skin someday. With the details on a suitable spray system for the R44 resolved, I turned my attention to the choice of which model R44. Peter kindly directed me to two Downunder ag operators using R44s. I gave each one a call and was keen to hear what they said. It was clear the R44 was the best option, but should I get the new Raven II or the older Astro? The long waiting list here in South Africa was a problem with the Raven II. Any used ones to be found were too expensive. One of the Downunder operators told me he uses both models and the one for bottom-line profit was the Astro. It didn’t have hydraulics, the purchase and insurance costs were less. With the Raven II certified to carry only 45 liters more, I settled on the Astro. My search for an R44 Astro found one being rebuilt and zero-timed. I would have basically a new helicopter, as far as hours were concerned. I knew the Astro wasn’t built as strong for ag work like a Bell 47 or Hiller. But with the Helipod system, I was sure it was going to be a force to be reckoned with. The quick removal time of the Helipod unit meant I could fly charter outside the spray season, 12 months out of the year utilization. R44s are very popular helicopters in South Africa. They are always in demand. It is the most sold piston helicopter here, so spares are readily available and maintenance will not be a problem either. I settled on ZS-RKY and requested for it to be painted orange to make advertising it easy. There was only one other like it in the country. While waiting for the R44 to be completed, my Helipod system arrived from New Zealand. I opened it up and what a surprise! It was better than I had ever imagined. The Kevlar/fiberglass belly tank was superb. The booms were a work of art and all the wiring and such were clearly marked, which insured an easy installation. The day finally came when I received my new, shiny, orange R44. Now, it was time to install the Helipod rig. I found the instruction booklet to be very straightforward. Within a couple of hours all the big stuff was done. The rig uses four support brackets that are attached to the skids’ cross tube bolts. Inserting the four pins with their safety clips and the tank was on. The wiring took the most time, as it needed to be fitted meticulously along the boom. The connections fit together nicely. The wiring ended with a cannon plug that simplifies disconnecting of the spray gear from the helicopter. The complete installation was done in a day. The next day saw me filling the Helipod with water for the first time and checking out how it worked. All was working great and I was ecstatic. Now came the true test, a perfect opportunity to see how it all worked together. I used the Micronair setup for a sugarcane ripening application. The flow rate was set to match a speed of 80 mph with a swath of 16 meters. I sprayed at 75 mph and used a 12-meter swath. With the R22, I could only spray 10 hectares at a time, as this is all it will carry. I loaded 200 liters to get a feel for the machine. For the second load, I upped it to 240 liters and it still performed well. The next load was its maximum certification of 285 liters. The helicopter handled the load with no problems. The first job saw fantastic figures of hectares per hour. I sprayed ripener at seven liters per ha. With the R22, I averaged 25 hectares per hour. The first job with the R44 resulted in 52 hectares per hour. A few more hours at the stick saw me increase my work rate to 60 hectares per hour. With the R44, I can spray 50 hectares before returning to refill and fuel. With the R22, I was spraying only 10 hectares per load. The Astro flies effortlessly at 80 mph with a large load. The cyclic feedback is minimal. You set the trim with the first run and it is set for the remainder of the loads. The R44 has a decent turn rate at the end of a run, certainly not as quick as the R22, as the side area of the R44 with its large stabilizers causes more drag. The turns can be tricky. Lower the airspeed, leaving alone the trim, the aircraft will momentarily be a little heavy but will get back into trim the moment the speed builds up again. This saves the pilot from constantly chasing the trim. The R44 has excellent pilot view. The booms are called TV booms, mounted forward of the skids. The pilot has clear sight of the pressure gauge and both booms. The pump and motor are on the pilot’s side. There is a little left cyclic input to counter this, but as the R44 hovers with the left skid low, this makes for an easy, level landing. The pump motor is out of the pilot’s way. There is no need to maneuver around it every time you enter the cabin. The power used for 80 mph runs is the cruise setting of 21” MP. This will insure a good engine life. Its fuel burn is 16 gallons per hour, better than my Enstrom. It was burning around 18.5 gph and carrying a smaller load with a spray speed of 60 mph. As can be expected, there is drag on the system with the booms installed, but you can ferry at 100 mph with a load on board. For me, the main issue was no longer having the large pump on the side, which was like a brick. With that and the booms removed, leaving only the tank in tact, it will indicate 115 mph. Some people may cringe at the thought of an R44 flying ag work. It’s not built like a Bell 47, or a Hiller. However, it is does the job just as well. The R44 burns less fuel and in South Africa, it is much less expensive to maintain than other helicopters. It doesn’t have bearings to constantly grease. The spray rig can be easily removed. It can be used for charter work. It will cruise at 130 mph burning 15 gph. It will make you money for twelve months a year. Its speed and passenger placement outperforms other three-seaters in the piston class of helicopters. As they say, “When in Rome do as the Romans do.” When in Africa, make do with what Africa has.
Then found this:
The job I was on is complete, so as promised Cropduster here is a summary of how the R44 went - excellent. They certainly are a very good machine, & the only problems we had were with already known faults. Magnetos - I understand that the threat of litigation has kept the piston aero engine in the stone age, but I am very quickly losing my patience with failing magnetos. 4 failed mags in 3 months is not acceptable, giving me a total of 7 magneto failures in 2000hrs of flying R44's. Not a Robinson fault as they are on a lycoming engine, but when a machine crashes people don't report it as a "Lycoming crashed". I wonder if the engine bay in the 44 is too hot for the magnetos, even with the piped cooling air?? Blades - it is common knowledge that the R44 blades are extremely lightweight, & we suffered damage from flying objects being recirculated in the rotorwash while landing. In the sandy/dusty environment we were operating in it was impossible to keep the paint on the blades to the minimum spec as stipulated by Robinson. 1 1/2 days after the leading edges were painted by the engineers while doing a 100hrly it was worn off again. We tried repainting them in the field which didn't work. The paint either didn't dry in time or peeled of in sheets. I honestly believe that if Frank doesn't come up with something better than "keep the paint on them" to prevent delamination then it will be the downfall of the R44. CASA is getting pretty tough on enforcing this which will have a lot of operators running scared if they need to paint the blades a few times between 100hrly's. Hydraulic System O'rings - These seem to be made of an inferior product as we had 4 cases of hydraulic leaks on the fittings between the resovoir & pump. I have many years experience maintaining caterpillar mining equipment so I know that expecting a full life out of an o'ring shouldn't be too much to ask.
Those are my 3 main gripes, but if you pay attention to these areas above & beyond the stipulated requirements you'll have many hours of troublefree production out of the R44. It is a pleasure to get in & out of a machine every day for months on end & have no airframe or flight control problems to contend with. I don't miss the grease-gun out of the Hiller 12e toolbox, that's for sure!!! The R44 is very "lightweight" in the fuselage & cockpit area, so if you had a pilot who didn't pay attention to looking after the cosmetic aspect of the machine it will quickly deteriorate, but will still be a safe & functional helicopter. I hope that helps with any dealings you have in the future with the R44, Cropduster, & PM me if you need more detailed info.
Title: Re: Robinson R44 Advice?
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on December 06, 2007, 03:54:06 PM
Lots of great info here... thanks G-Man! ::bow:: ::bow:: ::bow:: I've stashed them away into my favorites so I can view them later. I'm off to Simcom today for a 3-day refresher course for the Platypus, so I'm gonna be preoccupied, but I'll get into it when I can.
Title: Re: Robinson R44 Advice?
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on January 18, 2008, 08:05:11 AM
Its been a busy four weeks or so for me, and da boss is now riding my case about whirlybirds again. New deal is; he's found an Enstrom dealer and service center in Mexico right in the town where our HQ and Maintenance shop is. I am supposed to go meet these guys tomorrow and try to get as much operating cost and financial data as I can.
What can anyone tell me about Enstrom? Any likes/dislikes? Does the Enstrom have so-many-year time between overhaul on the airframe like the older R44's? I'll go turbine if the boss can afford it, and he's even talking about partnering with the owner of this company on doing charter work with a turbine Enstrom when its not needed for spraying. Next thing I gotta figure out is who makes spray rigs for Enstroms...
Looks like this thing will stay in Mexico full-time so no Mike, I am not coming over to the Dark Side in the forseeable future. Hehe. >:D >:D >:D
Title: Re: Robinson R44 Advice?
Post by: Mike on January 18, 2008, 05:16:46 PM
don't know much about the Enstrom. maybe G-man does.
the guys I know who fly them think they are very safe.
BUT:
before you buy a TURBINE Enstrom and possibly use it for charter and stuff, buy a Jet Ranger !! there are soooo many more people out there who can fly and/or maintain Jet Rangers and it's a proven concept (kinda like the "Boing" of Helicopters ;) )
Title: Re: Robinson R44 Advice?
Post by: Baradium on January 20, 2008, 02:56:20 AM
Its been a busy four weeks or so for me, and da boss is now riding my case about whirlybirds again. New deal is; he's found an Enstrom dealer and service center in Mexico right in the town where our HQ and Maintenance shop is. I am supposed to go meet these guys tomorrow and try to get as much operating cost and financial data as I can.
What can anyone tell me about Enstrom? Any likes/dislikes? Does the Enstrom have so-many-year time between overhaul on the airframe like the older R44's? I'll go turbine if the boss can afford it, and he's even talking about partnering with the owner of this company on doing charter work with a turbine Enstrom when its not needed for spraying. Next thing I gotta figure out is who makes spray rigs for Enstroms...
Looks like this thing will stay in Mexico full-time so no Mike, I am not coming over to the Dark Side in the forseeable future. Hehe. >:D >:D >:D
You mention "older" R44s. I was under the impression that ALL robinson helicopters have these limitations. AOPA pilot had a write up on them once and said that you never have to overhaul the engines because the robinsons have to be sent for the factory overhaul by that time, where the airframe is essentially zero timed and many components replaced.
Title: Re: Robinson R44 Advice?
Post by: Ragwing on January 20, 2008, 04:27:16 AM
The Robinson aircraft are time limited. I do not remember the time on the R44, but the R22 is 10 years. A few years ago, it cost $100,000.
The entire aircraft is reworked and comes out as a zero time aircraft.
I know an R22 that is sitting in a hanger. It has 30 hours left on the airframe, but the engine was over sped. Their is a second R22 in which the airframe will time out prior to the engine.... Instant engine swap. Timed out frame and over sped engine go south for rebuild.
Did you read the new AD on the R22?
Part of the normal inspection is to (near the hub) lift each blade up. Some people are not as gentle as others and have been damaging the blades with their bare hands. So, the FAA became involved. For those in the know, there are more than one blade design. Skin was thinned and then they went from a single external overlap stiffener to a double. AD does not distinguish between any blades. All are full inspection for the 10 hour AD. Must be enjoyable to inspect the leading edge of the blade at 10X.
Title: Re: Robinson R44 Advice?
Post by: Rooster Cruiser on January 20, 2008, 06:30:59 AM
I was told that the pre-hydraulic R44's have an airframe overhaul lifespan of 12 years. This has made me steer clear of this particular R44.
I am being told that the Enstroms have no such limitation. Is this really true?
Title: Re: Robinson R44 Advice?
Post by: Mike on January 20, 2008, 07:48:34 PM
Part of the normal inspection is to (near the hub) lift each blade up. Some people are not as gentle as others and have been damaging the blades with their bare hands. So, the FAA became involved. For those in the know, there are more than one blade design. Skin was thinned and then they went from a single external overlap stiffener to a double. AD does not distinguish between any blades. All are full inspection for the 10 hour AD. Must be enjoyable to inspect the leading edge of the blade at 10X.
haven't heard about this but it sound very much like an FAA move. . .
Hey, Rooster! Talk your boss into a Jet Ranger! It's as worry-free as you can go in a helicopter!
Title: Re: Robinson R44 Advice?
Post by: Oddball on January 20, 2008, 08:26:34 PM
if any of you scan Ebay can you keep a eye out for a ex Army Air Corps bell 47 for sale at scone over here just want to see if Air Service Training is putting it up for sale, had many hanger pilot hours in it almost went solo in it until one of my instructors caught me opening the door ::rofl::
